Talk:A-flat clarinet

Photo Request

(Photo was requested)

Ta-da! I will try also to put a size comparison including C, A, and Bass clarinets later. (will add alto, basset horn, contrabasses, etc. if anyone cares to donate one to me). --Myke Cuthbert 18:38, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice! -- Rsholmes 20:33, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

More info

There is still more info in the various clarinet books but esp. Basil Tschaikov's section of the Cambridge Companion to cite for this article. Much to do. But no longer a stub. --Myke Cuthbert 17:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

E?

The Rough Guide to the Clarinet mentions that above E-flat there are piccolo clarinets in E and A-flat. I've never heard of a high E-natural clarinet--I am assuming a typo for F or G, but figured I'd put it here and see if anyone knows anything about it. --Myke Cuthbert 06:48, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, now we have evidence (Rice) that such an instrument did exist. (But the high B-natural clarinet has vanished from his lists) -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 00:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Which piccolo clarinet

is used in Prokofiev's 5th symphony? Aviad2001 22:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

None. If any high clarinet is used, it's the E-flat or possibly D. Don't know off the top of my head, but I do know that Prokofiev didn't use the A-flat or any other very high clarinet. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

According to this you're absolutely right. Interstingly, however, my full score of the symphony clearly refers to "clarinetto piccolo", but since the entire score is in C (including normally transposing instruments) it's impossible to tell. Aviad2001 09:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Uh...look at both articles. It's clearly talking about the Eb Clarinet. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 11:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Which one of us are you talking to? I agreed with mike. I just mentioned what my score says, and that it's a "C-score", where all parts are transcribed so as to be in C. Aviad2001 19:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

It's one of my gripes with the naming of the article -- it really should be "A-flat and similarly high clarinets." The term piccolo clarinet is not at all standard: Finale uses it to mean A♭ clarinet but that's not a universal definition. I'm sure some people, unaware of even higher instruments, would call an E-flat clarinet a piccolo clarinet. After all, a "piccolo oboe" is only a third higher than a standard oboe. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 20:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

keywords restored

I added back commented out keywords for the article. They were removed by Melodia and Rsholmes with the comment "Google will pick up because of the redirects." But Google hasn't. A search on "Ab clarinet wikipedia" or "A-flat clarinet wikipedia" does not find this article. Since there's no good reason to add "Ab" to the article, but it is an important search term, I've put the keywords back.

Also suggest that we remove the infobox. It doesn't add any information that's not found in the article, and it adds gaps (esp. Playing Range) that look unprofessional. For instance, what's a related instrument? Is it something that is similarly unusual, like a sopranino sarrusophone? or something equally high like a piccolo flute? "Soprano clarinet" seems an odd related instrument compared to just "clarinet", but that doesn't really fit because it's a related family of instruments. Plus the infobox removed important pieces of information from the old caption--the maker of the instrument and its key--without adding anything worthwhile in return. -- Myke Cuthbert (talk) 20:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Videos

Are there any videos of this thing being played online? Badagnani (talk) 23:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a video is here (right hand side): http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ugw/ugwf1e.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjprice1 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC) and a sound-only recording, here: http://www.schwenk-und-seggelke.de/media/klarinette_AS-G_2.wma And here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN4OX-yefbY&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Redirections?

I noticed that if you search "Sopranino Clarinet" you are redirected to here. Shouldn't this redirect you to the E-flat Clarinet page? User:XEspmasterX 20:02, 6 November 2011

Possibly. Each of these terms is used interchangeably by different authors. For instance, the E-flat clarinet is also called a Piccolo clarinet by some. An A-flat clarinet is a sopranino to others. I'd support moving the redirect for Sopranino to E-flat clarinet, or make a disambiguation page for it saying that it is a term that can either refer to an E-flat or D-clarinet or to the G, A-flat, and higher piccolo clarinets. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 23:08, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 11 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for several weeks. Jenks24 (talk) 05:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

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Piccolo clarinet → A-flat clarinet – I've always been uncomfortable with the term "piccolo clarinet" for this article which, as far as I can tell, only has a usage in the instrument list in the Finale software, and isn't attributed in any of the literature cited. The best name would be "A-flat and higher clarinets" or "Clarinets above E-flat" but that probably would be rejected. "Octave clarinets" is more common. The precedent at "E-flat clarinet" (which includes the D clarinet) would be to call it "A-flat clarinet" and then also redirect the higher clarinets here. Piccolo clarinet referred to all clarinets above the C clarinet (and even sometimes the C) and generally also included the E-flat. Thoughts? -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 19:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)--Relisted. Tiggerjay (talk) 02:21, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bass guitar?

A bass guitar? In the 1880s? Really? The Belgian Ocelot (talk) 17:54, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes. Acoustic bass guitars go back that far. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 22:44, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Improve to B or A class

I've dropped some suggestions over on the WikiProject Musical Instruments discussion, but here's a couple of more useful sources to mine:

• Rice, Albert R. (March 2017). "Small Clarinets: History, Instruments, and Music". The Galpin Society Journal. 70: 135–68, 230–1. doi:10.2307/45200834. JSTOR 45200834.
• Baines, Anthony (1977). Woodwind Instruments and their History (3rd ed.). New York: Dover Publications (published 1991). p. 124–5. ISBN 978-0-48626-885-9. OCLC 24010861. OL 1544645M. Wikidata Q115155619.
• Klassisches Wiener Schrammelquartett. Wiener Typen Marsch (Audio recording). Retrieved 27 January 2023 – via YouTube. The delightful recording by Vienna Phil players of the 19th century Wiener Schrammelquartett music, as described in Tschaikov's high clarinets chapter in the Cambridge Companion (p. 53), which includes Richard Schönhofer playing the high G clarinet.

— Jon (talk) 04:31, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Ok I've had a go at including info from various more recent refs, and dividing the article into history and construction sections, and improving refs etc. I think we're in good shape for a WP:GAN now :) — Jon (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

That said, there are a few things. It would be nice to have a sound recording of the A♭ clarinet, even if it's just a simple 3 octave E major scale from written E₃ to E₆ (middle C to silly-C). Also, I can't find any evidence that Buffet Crampon are still making the A♭ (e.g. current offerings). — Jon (talk) 04:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure that Buffet is still making them either. :-( Vandoren is still apparently making the mouthpiece, which is a relief because I otherwise wouldn't know what I'd do if it chipped. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 01:07, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

I've always wondered if 3D printing could save the day there, when it gets good and fine enough; same with recreating museum mouthpieces for things like the serpent. Also, I have trouble with this assertion: "The usage of the term 'piccolo clarinet' to refer specifically to the A♭ clarinet, found in some music software, does not appear before the twenty-first century." — given the A♭ is essentially an Italian instrument, and has been called (in Italian) a clarinetto/clarino piccolo since its introduction in the early 19th century (along with other small clarinets), e.g. Bellini (1844), Verdi scores, Orsi and other maker catalogues, other writers ( c.f. Rice 2017); Rice also discusses the (lack of consistent) small clarinet nomenclature, and lack of reliable sources of information in general (p. 135); Ripamonti call their A♭ a clarinetto piccolo since at least 1980; Shackleton's Grove entry (8th ed. published 2001 but substantially written in earlier editions) calls them piccolo clarinets, as does Lawson (p. 33) and Tchaikov (p. 54) in the 1995 Cambridge Companion; American composer William Neil's 1987 "Concerto for Piccolo Clarinet" (for E♭; catalog; YouTube; Tchaikov in Cambridge Companion p. 51, note 5); This all pre-dates widespread use of notation software. Quite separately, I suspect that if manufacturers, musicologists and composers have all been calling them piccolo clarinets for over 20 years, and nearly 200 years in Italian, then we can say that they are nowadays (at least "often") known as piccolo clarinets. I don't think notation software comes into it, really. — Jon (talk) 04:47, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence (The A-flat (A♭) clarinet is the most common member of the highest-pitched instruments of the clarinet family.) could be technically correct, but it sounds potentially very misleading (as if it is saying it is the most common type of clarinet) especially if you gloss over a key word or have low familiarity with the rest of the clarinet family. Perhaps the lede can be rewritten to prevent this type of misreading. Hftf (talk) 06:03, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure if it belongs here, or another article, but the "hot fountain pen" as used/invented by Adrian Rollini might qualify as a small clarinet, mentioned in Baines 1977 and in the Oxford Bate Collection; also in a recently published Rollini biography. He used them in recordings c. 1925-30, built 21-26 cm in length, in E♭ or C. — Jon (talk) 06:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Military bands and composers in Italy

I think there can be more said about the A♭ in Italy, which is where it principally survived the tumultuous early 20th century, particularly in military bands. It has also been used by many Italian composers (perhaps less well-known outside Italy) in both band and classical music. Italian writers and musicians such as Adriano Amore and Giovanni di Lorenzo (not the football player) have interesting material we can source. — Jon (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

References

Jon (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Indeed -- that would be great to add. There wasn't much in the past and glad to see more information going forward. (Btw -- I've restored the bit about the modern usage of the term in software which I've had to deal with a lot in maintaining the article over the past 10 years. If you want, I'll find a citation though finding a negative citation can be difficult. I'd like to think that as a professional musicologist and the person who owns an A-flat clarinet who contributed all the images for the article, you might give a little leeway. Thanks!). -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 09:40, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mscuthbert it's not just that it's uncited, it's that it's also not true, as I tried to explain above. The term piccolo clarinet was in common use, by musicologists, Italians, composers and players, long before notation software. I'm trying to get these articles to at least GA, so we need citations for everything. — Jon (talk) 12:31, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I’d love to see a citation that piccolo clarinet refers to the Ab etc clarinets and not the Eb and D. I’ve looked for years and never found one. -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 08:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

If you need a citation for everything I suggest removing all the images from the article. I just took them and claimed that they’re my Ab clarinet and it’s reeds. They could be G clarinets or I could have photoshopped them. No one has published a RS saying that I own an Ab clarinet and took a photo of it. :-) -- Michael Scott Asato Cuthbert (talk) 08:26, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I provided several direct citations above, but to repeat: Italian opera scores, military band music, and manufacturers have all referred to them as clarino/clarinetto piccolo since the early 19th century; the very Ripamonti clarinet you (claim to!) own is called a clarinetto piccolo in La♭ on their website; Shackleton and Porter both called them piccolo clarinets in Grove; Colin Lawson calls them piccolo clarinets on page 33 of the 1995 Cambridge Companion. Saying nobody called them piccolo clarinets before 2000 is therefore incorrect, and without a citation, saying that only notation software vendors started calling them piccolo clarinets is WP:OR. Perhaps we could instead focus on what we can say. If we want to say that notation software calls the A♭ clarinet a piccolo clarinet, then we'd need to cite a manual or other printed source (I can't find anything in the online Finale manual, it offers "Clarinet in B♭", "Clarinet in A" and "Clarinet in E♭" in the instrument list; MuseScore 4 offers a "piccolo clarinet" which is in A♭; not sure what Sibelius and Dorico do). As for images, I'm glad you've contributed them, otherwise we'd have to rely on some 19 century clarinets with weird fingering systems in the Edinburgh University collections (which are all called "piccolo clarinet" by the way); also, we don't need to WP:SKYBLUE. — Jon (talk) 15:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mscuthbert: Honestly, I was about to nominate this article for a Good Article review, so we could use it as a test run for restoring the other clarinet articles that used to be GA, but this one remaining thing would not pass a review because there's no sources. I'd like to know what you think?—Jon (talk) 04:24, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

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References

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:A-flat clarinet/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Schminnte (talk · contribs) 08:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello @ Jonathanischoice, you know the drill by now so I'll skip the boring bits. I'll start working on this review soon, at least within the week. As a clarinettist, I'm excited to get started and spotcheck with my own copies! All the best, Schminnte ^{[talk to me]} 08:21, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jonathanischoice, I think I have finished with review comments. I will now place the article on the standard hold period to give you time to address them. All the best, Schminnte ^{[talk to me]} 21:26, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

@Schminnte: - Hi, I'm half-way through, but it's now Christmas in my part of the world (Merry Christmas!) so I might not be able to get to this for another few days. Cheers, Jon (talk) 21:40, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jonathanischoice: Still a few hours here! I'm more than happy to extend the hold for a while, say until New Year's Day? Would that work for you? Schminnte ^{[talk to me]} 22:13, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

That would be good - I've just got back to it today. Cheers — Jon (talk) 10:10, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

@Schminnte: nearly but not quite finished, can you let me know what you think so far? Cheers — Jon (talk) 00:19, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Jonathanischoice, great progress. Just a few more points. Schminnte ^{[talk to me]} 02:07, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Schminnte: side note... I'm trying to get hold of this resource (Dictionary for the Modern Clarinetist) which could be a good RS for remaining points, but I might not get to it in time; apparently the full text is available through ProQuest but my library doesn't get to it, and I won't be able to interloan the physical book until after 8 January. Are you able to get it? — Jon (talk) 08:55, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

It appears to be available on archive.org with a free membership. Can you get it through that? Schminnte ^{[talk to me]} 09:39, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

@Schminnte: happy new year :) thanks for finding that, I didn't think to look on IA. I've attempted to address the remaining points, where possible, and marked them with a yellow (!) icon for convenience. Zero luck with images or sound samples so far, alas. Jon (talk) 20:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Happy new year Jon. Seeing as all other points are resolved and User:Mscuthbert has been inactive for two weeks, I'm going to pass this review. Other discussions about new images and sounds can be discussed on the talk page: for now I am aware that the review has been open for two weeks and content that locating the best quality media has been attempted. Congratulations on another GA! All the best, Schminnte ^{[talk to me]} 00:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Comments

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   §Lede:

   Turn the two links to clarinet and clarinet family into a single link to clarinet family over both words - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   common B♭ clarinet, and pitched a minor seventh higher: remove comma since we are still discussing the Bb - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   Around the beginning of the 19th century several: comma needed after century for clarity - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   More generally I would like to see the lede expanded to include more points from §Construction and §Repertoire - S

   Have had an initial go, thoughts? — Jon (talk)

   Good start, maybe mention some of the makers and more famous composers (Verdi, Bartók)? - S

   Including infobox things here:

   Arguably "Wind Woodwind" is not necessary since woodwind is linked above. I think you can remove these but keep "single-reed" - S

   have indicated a classification heirarchy, but this is not done on other instrument pages, so maybe you're right? — Jon (talk)

   I think the arrows work quite well as a compromise, not entirely sure on the MOS for this - S

   Clarinet might not be needed to be linked in "related instruments" since clarinet family is linked below. If it is kept, I would like a link to Bb clarinet or Bb clarinet specifically - S

   Done (fixed other things here too) — Jon (talk)

   §History:

   Could we have links to the musicologists mentioned in the first sentence? - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   "Small" should be in italics, not quotes per MOS:WAW - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   Of the three highest and smallest "octave" clarinets [...] only 28 centimetres (11 in) long: I think a split is called for after "bands" - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   Much better, thanks - S

   §Construction:

   Wiki-link mouthpiece and bell - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   larger clarinets, or even: this last comma seems a bit too much separation - S

   Have reworded sentence for hopefully better clarity. — Jon (talk)

   §Repertoire:

   Do we need to know that go featured other tangentially related instruments? - S

   Maybe not, but it's kind of fun... Vérifications also has piccolo, musette and Casio SK-1 — Jon (talk)

   I think it's fine on reflection - S

   I think the contemporary works list is unnecessary since its already in prose form - S

   Me too, fixed, moved Vérifications into prose — Jon (talk)

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   No copyvio found in internet sources with Earwig's - S

   Source spot checks for copyvio and text-source integrity (copyvio only checked when mentioned):

   Ref 2 (Shackleton 2001): pass for verifiability. Maybe consider mentioning that Shackleton also calls these octave clarinets - S

   He clarifies later that Tschaikov (p43) clarifies that "octave" clarinets refer to the three highest in A B♭ and C, an octave above the more common regular-sized (soprano) clarinets in those keys.

   Ref 3 (Lawson 1995): pass for verifiability - S

   Ref 4 (Baines 1977): pass for verifiability - S

   Ref 5a&b (Rice 2017): both passes for verifiability - S

   Ref 6 (Tschaikov 1995): pass for verifiability, perhaps also mention he calls them "little" at some points - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   Ref 9 (Rice 2017): pass for verifiability and copyvio - S

   Ref 10 (Forsyth 1914): pass for verifiability - S

   Ref 11 (Tschaikov 1995): pass for verifiability and copyvio, though is there any reason not to use the given spelling of picksüsses Hölzl (or picksüßes Hölzl as is given in other sources)? - S

   Fixed, as in the cited ref — Jon (talk)

   Ref 14a&b (Baines 1977): a is a fail for verifiability but a pass for copyvio, page doesn't mention any time-frames or countries with regards to military bands. b is also a fail for verifiability for aforementioned reasons and as it doesn't mention doubling the piccolo flute line, only being able to play into piccolo range - S

   That's because for 14a I was using the wrong ref (now 11b, Tschaikov 1995 p.53), and for now I can't remember where I read that it largely copies the piccolo line in band parts, but I will find it and update the other ref (for now, ref 15) — Jon (talk)

   I've given up on the piccolo factoid; I can't recall where I read it at the time, and now can't find it. — Jon (talk)

   Ref 16 (Tschaikov 1995): pass for verifiability and copyvio - S

   Ref 18 (Tschaikov 1995): pass for verifiability and copyvio - S

   Can we have author-links for Nicholas Shackleton, Colin Lawson, Cecil Forsyth and Anthony Baines? - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   "Hans-Joachim Hespos website", "website" is not needed - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   What makes The Clarinet BBoard a reliable source? - S

   It really isn't, but I have been hoping to find this in a more reliable place, without luck so far. Can always remove/revise the claim I suppose. — Jon (talk)

   Unless a better source can be found, I think the statement should be removed - S

   Rephrased, cites a Leblanc museum specimen built 1983 — Jon (talk)

   YouTube and Discogs are unreliable and shouldn't be used to support that text - S

   Moved to §External links — Jon (talk)

   The first paragraph of §Construction and the last of §Repertoire need citations - S

   Reworked the last repertoire paragraph, found a choir history article and Cailliet Grove entry. There's literally nothing written about the construction of A♭ clarinets, but at least the one-piece body segment is self-evident from photos in manufacturer catalogs/websites, and I'm thinking it's bordering on WP:SKYBLUE? Have used a web-ref to an example museum item which states the obvious.

   When the publisher is Cambridge University Press, the location isn't needed - S

   Fixed — Jon (talk)

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Although short, the article holds up when compared to other literature (Cambridge Companion, Grove, etc.) - S

   I was hesitant on the inclusion of other piccolo here, but on reflection I think this is fine. It makes sense to address them as well in this article - S

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Not sure how you could be biased towards a clarinet, but the articles seems neutral. Bias is not present when discussing makers - S

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Just a question here, is the content dispute detailed at talk page section "Military bands and composers in Italy" completely over? A simple yes/no is fine - S

   I'm not certain; it's entirely possible I'm misunderstanding something, and I'd be interested what Mscuthbert thinks about things. — Jon (talk)

   Seeing as the user is inactive and it was quite a while ago, I'm AGFing this criterion and passing it - S

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images tagged properly with CC licenses - S

   Is there any way to get a non-free sound file here, or an external link to an appropriate site? - S

   @Mscuthbert: would you be interested in recording something for the article? Otherwise I haven't been able to find anything on Commons or elsewhere that is compatibly-licensed (public domain, CC, etc.) — Jon (talk)

   Can a better picture of reeds be found than File:B-flat e-flat a-flat reeds.jpg, which looks quite low quality? - S

   @Mscuthbert: I don't think it's that bad, but could you take another photo of your reeds? I'm assuming Schminnte means the reflection/glare. — Jon (talk)

   Per MOS:CAPLENGTH, a caption is not needed for this infobox photo - S

   Done — Jon (talk)

   Caption 3: Note the greater difference in size between A♭ and E♭ than between E♭ and B♭: why should we note this? It isn't mentioned in text and seems unnecessary to say. - S

   Fair enough. — Jon (talk)

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.