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Archive 1Archive 2

Proposed merge of Allegations of genocide in the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon into 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was merge. Clear consensus to merge. (non-admin closure) ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 08:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Given that "Allegations of genocide in the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" contains only a sentence, it can easily be added to the "2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" article. I would do this myself, but I'm uncertain where exactly the claim would be placed. Significa liberdade (she/her) (talk) 01:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Support: This should be put into the War crimes sections of Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present). Use quotes from those allegations for more detail. Prodrummer619 (talk) 04:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Wait: Given that there is a significant amount of sources, the article could be expanded further, enough to warrant a stand alone status. Support per other arguments. ByteBaldur (talk) 08:19, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Wait per ByteBaldur's reasoning Mason7512 (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Oppose That article currently has 8 different sources listed. Give it time to grow, as it was only created just a few days ago. JasonMacker (talk) 03:37, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Just three of them are cited for claims of a genocide in Lebanon; of those
  • Mondoweiss makes such a claim only in the WP:HEADLINE of an WP:NEWSOPED
  • Jacobin does in the WP:HEADLINE and a politician's quote.
  • Green Left doesn't at all, verification fails for me.
— xDanielx T/C\R 05:07, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Support as from the online material I have read, there are no substantial arguments or evidence or sources supporting this allegation - yet. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
You are correct, but that's a reason for why the title would be Allegations of genocide in Lebanon' instead of 'Genocide in Lebanon', and not for notability. ByteBaldur (talk) 09:42, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Yes, that's when the allegation passes the threshold of being considered as fact; but what I was saying is that the earlier threshold for it to be even considered an appropriate allegation hasn't been met yet. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:03, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Support Can always recreate if situation warrants.Selfstudier (talk) 10:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Support. especially given the page has no prose substance and references are vague at best. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 13:22, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Support With the irrelevant references now removed, the page has very little standing in terms of sourcing, and the one sentence of content should definitely be merged. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 22:35, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Oppose per JasonMacker. Skitash (talk) 15:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
How is this a genocide? I dont undestand can someone truly explain this to me, please? 198.105.46.252 (talk) 17:10, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Support - very little substantive sources to warrant an article. Elshad (talk) 20:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Support merge not independently notable. Andre🚐 22:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)
Support merge for now, but this article could be moved to a draft. Prodrummer619 (talk) 04:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Support - it simply fails WP:GNG. Not one source is really discussing the topic of Lebanon genocide accusations. Quoting a brief statement by a politician falls short of the significant coverage that GNG requires. — xDanielx T/C\R 05:12, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - it's not "genocide" and the article has 1 source, Al Jazeera. Shaman007 (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
@Shaman007: I think you meant support (the merge)? But also, it looks like you're not extended confirmed. Per WP:PIA, you should hold off on participating in the Israel-Palestine topic area (other than edit requests) until becoming extended confirmed. — xDanielx T/C\R 17:27, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Support Genocide is the most serious allegation of all against any state, surpassing even terrorism or mass murder. We need better sources than Jacobin if we are to write a page about genocide allegations. Bremps... 23:10, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
Support. Fringe accusation, not independently notable. Whizkin (talk) 11:51, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Support I am just not seeing how reliable sources have made substantial allegations of genocide in this case let alone whether those allegations were to be credible. Without trying to substitute any editor's position for the position of the reliable sources we should note whatever the reliable sources say in the main article at most. Jorahm (talk) 20:33, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Wait We have Allegations of genocide in the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel that resulted in 1163 deaths. Death toll from the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon already surpassed 3000[1] and it's going up fast. We also have sources that call it a genocide Crampcomes (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

UNIFIL

UNIFIL cannot be placed with Hezbollah, but between the two contenders in the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.17.124.139 (talk) 17:10, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I would add the following quote from ISW latest report (link):
Likely Hezbollah fighters fired at UNIFIL peacekeepers in southern Lebanon on November 16.[17] UNIFIL reported that an armed group prevented a patrol of French and Finnish peacekeepers from conducting a patrol in Bedias, Tyre District. The patrol continued along its planned route into the village of Maarakeh. UNIFIL said that “likely non-state actors“ fired upon the patrol about 40 times. The only non-state armed groups operating in southern Lebanon are Hezbollah and groups that Hezbollah permits to operate in southern Lebanon. Some patrol vehicles had bullet impacts but no peacekeepers were injured. UNIFIL said it is unacceptable that peacekeepers are routinely targeted while conducting UN Security Council-mandated tasks. UNIFIL stated that it is the responsibility of Lebanese authorities to ensure that UNIFIL peacekeepers can carry out their mandated tasks without fear or threats. Urionics (talk) 06:17, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
Another incident of a likely Hezbollah attack on UNIFIL Reuters on October 29 Urionics (talk) 06:46, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 November 2024

Change "2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon" to "Israel Hezbollah war" why becasue you know exactly why. This is not an invasion its a war. Don't ruin Wikipedia, you know exactly what is going on here, just fix it. Bklausner (talk) 16:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Such a change would require consensus. --AntiDionysius (talk) 16:29, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
There is already a Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present) article. This article is focused specifically on Israel's invasion of Lebanon. JasonMacker (talk) 19:12, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

"Israel's method's" is baseless

"Israel's methods were met with criticism in Israel [emph. mine], with Israeli media complaining that 50,000 Israeli soldiers were unable to take a single village and have gotten bogged down against Hezbollah, failing to make any gains." It is factually incorrect that people inside israel believe the IDF had failed take any village (and also factually incorrect that it hadn't). The citation supporting the claim is not an from an Israeli media outlet, but a foreign one (El Pais), written from Beirut. The cited source claims it was written in Yedioth Ahronot, but does link or give any evidence for that. Google search in either Hebrew or English gives nothing. There are many kinds or criticisms of Israel's war within Israel, but "failing to take any village" is not one of them.

Moreover, even that article does not claim that IDF did not penetrate Lebanon, but claims that the soldiers go back to inside Israel every night (which would be an incredible, nigh impossible, logistic feat...) so thus passage is a misrepresentation of the article, which in turn misrepresents the truth.

The last sentence is "Furthermore, Israeli casualties in October were so high that Israeli radio referred to it as 'Black October'" - this is true, but not an analysis or a criticism of any kind. elazarg (talk) 01:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah casualties

The 521 casualties for hezbollah is since October 8 2023 this article is since the invasion begin in early oct, if your gonna put the casualties since oct 8 2023 then you have to add the 30 other soldiers idf acknowledgd since oct 8 2023 2601:403:4200:D4D0:B527:9B13:333A:3622 (talk) 03:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

UNIFIL as a belligerent

They are an observer force, UNIFIL has not been involved in any direct clashes with either Israel or Hezbollah. If they are going to be listed in the factbox, it should be as a 3rd category, to reflect their supposedly neutral status in the hostilities. Unless Wikipedia agrees that UNIFIL is tacitly supporting Hezbollah? 31.154.220.95 (talk) 16:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Also the Lebanese army are hardly belligerents in the conflict except for a few rogue members associated with Hezbollah and other armed groups, and have played a neutral role (withdrawing from their positions to avoid confrontations with the IDF) 31.154.220.95 (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Israel is attacking them (UNIFIL and LAF). As the article points out, Israel has targeted UNIFIL bases. They have suffered casualties. They are a military force involved in this conflict. Yes, They are primarily observers and are not engaging in offensive action, as the hatnote states. But even engaging in defensive actions is enough to qualify them as a participant. It's a similar situation with the LAF, except there have been multiple deaths in the LAF as a result of Israeli attacks, and the LAF has returned fire on Israeli forces in at least one instance. That's why they're in the infobox. Importantly, here's what the requirements for a 3rd category are, as listed on the conflict infobox page:
The combatant3 field may be used if a conflict has three distinct "sides", and should be left blank on other articles.
That's the issue here. Neither LAF and UNIFIL are on a distinct third "side". That's why I don't think it's right to list them as a combatant3 (or 4). JasonMacker (talk) 01:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
Hezbollah also attacked them: https://www.reuters.com/world/four-italian-soldiers-injured-strike-unifil-lebanon-base-2024-11-22/ elazarg (talk) 14:38, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
The article you cite says that "Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani told Italian media that Hezbollah might be responsible for the attack." So it hasn't been confirmed that it was actually Hezbollah, and unlike Israeli attacks on UNIFIL positions, there hasn't been a direct confrontation where UNIFIL has stated that Hezbollah attacked them. If that ever happens, we can update the article as needed. JasonMacker (talk) 04:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

More battles

Hezbollah and Israel have been engaging non stop in Khiam, add something to note 185.127.127.22 (talk) 11:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

NPOV: Opening paragraph doesn't mention the 11 months long Hezbollah campaign against Israel which started on October 8th, 2023

The opening paragraph reads as if Israel invaded Lebanon completely unprovoked and shows a POV that is definitely not neutral. 2A0D:6FC7:214:2D49:9119:2364:3597:3DB9 (talk) 04:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The first sentence is "On 1 October 2024, Israel invaded Southern Lebanon in an escalation of the ongoing Israel–Hezbollah conflict, a spillover of the Israel–Hamas war."
It literally mentions spillover of the Israel-Hamas war. JasonMacker (talk) 01:39, 9 November 2024 (UTC)
And the following paragraph is:
"It followed a series of major attacks on Hezbollah in September that degraded its capabilities and devastated its leadership, beginning with the explosions of its communication devices. This was followed by a massive Israeli aerial bombing campaign throughout Lebanon, killing over 800 Lebanese people in one week. On 27 September, Israel assassinated Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah in an airstrike.".
According to the logic you are presenting, should this paragraph be deleted as it can be included in "spillover of the Israel - Hamas war"?
Fact of the matter is that someone who isn't educated on the subject reading the opening paragraph will easily think that the invasion was unprovoked. This is blatantly biased. Not to mention that the Hezbollah rocket attacks of Israel haven't just started on October 8th, 2023, they've been going throughout the whole timeline from that day until today. 80.178.255.158 (talk) 08:27, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
You falsely claimed that the opening paragraph doesn't mention the fact that this invasion is directly related to spillover from Hamas's October 7 attack. Instead of whining about bias, make an actual suggestion about what you want changed. Are you saying that the Israeli justification for the invasion should be given more weight? And then you randomly say that a paragraph in a different section of the article should be deleted "according to the logic you are presenting." What "logic" did I even present? I made a factual statement regarding what is included in this article's introductory paragraph. Make a suggestion about what specifically you want changed. JasonMacker (talk) 02:59, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
> "On 1 October 2024, Israel invaded Southern Lebanon in an escalation of the ongoing Israel–Hezbollah conflict, a spillover of the Israel–Hamas war."
this sentence doesn't give context to the complicated subject, and suggests:
1) that the Israel–Hezbollah conflict is a of the Israel–Hamas war. (and only that, ignoring decades og ongoing conflict in the area).
2) That the escalation in the conflict was made by Israel, and Israel alone. The first Israeli citizen was killed by Hezbollah on Octobr 15, 2023. (https://www.haaretz.co.il/0000018b-32c3-d450-a3af-7bdf3c780000) 28 Isrraeli villages were called to evacuate by Israel officials on October 16, 2023. (https://www.now14.co.il/article/857980).
This is a very good indication that the conflict in the area has already escalated on 2023.
later on, the background says: "From 8 October 2023 to 20 September 2024, Hezbollah has launched 1,900 cross border attacks, and Israel has launched another 8,300. The fighting killed 564 in Lebanon (including 133 civilians), and 52 in Israel (including 27 civilians), displaced entire communities in Israel and Lebanon, with significant damage to civilian infrastructure."
I'm pretty sure this should be on the first paragraph, as a very important motivation.
first paragraph, continue:
> "It followed a series of major attacks on Hezbollah in September that degraded its capabilities and devastated its leadership, beginning with the explosions of its communication devices. This was followed by a massive Israeli aerial bombing campaign throughout Lebanon, killing over 800 Lebanese people in one week. On 27 September, Israel assassinated Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah in an airstrike.".
again, no mention of the current actions of hezbollah. Wik Factorian (talk) 10:44, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
"this sentence doesn't give context to the complicated subject"
That is the lead sentence of this article. The whole point is to not give additional context but rather to give the most basic summary of the subject of the article. Read WP:LEAD:
"The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The notability of the article's subject is usually established in the first few sentences. As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources. Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article."
You're just complaining here without explaining what specifically you want changed. This article is about the 2024 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, not a broad overview of Israel's conflict with Hezbollah since Hezbollah's founding. Yes, Israel has attacked Lebanon in the past (which is why Hezbollah was formed in the first place), but that's not necessary to explain in the literal first sentence of this article. All of the context you desire is found in the wikilinks of the first sentence. The article Israel–Hezbollah_conflict_(2023–present) has in its background section as explanation of why Hezbollah was founded and why it's been attacking Israel since that time.
"1) that the Israel–Hezbollah conflict is a of the Israel–Hamas war. (and only that, ignoring decades og ongoing conflict in the area)."
Hezbollah's most recent escalation of the conflict was specifically in response to Hamas's attack on 7 October and the Israeli response. That's why we even have an article called Israel–Hezbollah_conflict_(2023–present). Do you think that it's random that we have a separate article for the Israel-Hezbollah conflict that specifically focus on 2023 onwards? Because it's not random. Prior to October 7th, 2023 Hezbollah was far less militarily active compared to after October 7th, 2023. You're just making up a fake belief that nobody has exhibited here. And again, what exactly is your remedy here? That we make the leading paragraphs much longer to have all the details you want?
"2) That the escalation in the conflict was made by Israel, and Israel alone."
What escalation are you talking about? Hezbollah and Israel firing rockets at each other since October 8th 2023 was an escalation compared to October 6th, but the escalation in the conflict that this article is focused on is specifically when Israel committed ground forces for a land invasion of Lebanon on October 1st 2024.
"This is a very good indication that the conflict in the area has already escalated on 2023."
Okay, cool, but guess what? There's already an article focusing on that. Israel–Hezbollah_conflict_(2023–present). This article is specifically about the Israeli invasion. You seem to be misinformed about the scope of this article.
"I'm pretty sure this should be on the first paragraph, as a very important motivation."
Why? This isn't an article titled Israeli motivations for the invasion of Lebanon. This is about the Israeli invasion of Lebanon itself. The leading paragraph already provides a 1-sentence description of Israel's motivation: "Israel said it aimed to take out Hezbollah's forces and infrastructure that could pose a threat to civilian communities in northern Israel." This sentence is supported by 4 references, and these 4 references cite Israel's own military as saying this.
"again, no mention of the current actions of hezbollah."
Ok, it doesn't mention Israel's current actions either. Because, that's not the point of the lead. The lead is just an introduction to the topic. The body paragraphs of the article talk about how Israel is currently bombing Lebanon and Hezbollah is currently killing Israeli soldiers in Lebanon. We don't need that in the lead paragraph.
In any case, how about you provide an alternate introduction that you think would be better? JasonMacker (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
Note to readers: User Wik_Factorian is not WP:XC and has a total of 4 edits, including the edit made to this talk page. JasonMacker (talk) 18:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm not very experienced(so you probably shouldn't listen to me), but to be fair the article is on the invasion, so it focuses on that. If I'm not mistaken it is fairly common for pages about battles on Wikipedia to have a Prelude section or something similar, and while this is larger than a battle, it does have a background section. In a similar vein though I do think that the background section gives very little detail about the events leading up to the invasion. Mlayap (talk) 04:31, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

War Crimes section is incredibly thin

If you read this article you'd come away thinking that only 3 Lebanese civilians had been killed in the conflict. On the 23rd of September alone there 550 deaths amongst Lebanese civilians including 50 children. HamNCheeseSandwich (talk) 05:02, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that section could use some expansion. I'm going to add a section about Israel targeting Lebanese medical facilities, using this source. JasonMacker (talk) 04:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
I've added a bit more, and because Israel has committed so many war crimes, it seems like the section can only get even bigger. JasonMacker (talk) 21:51, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

UNIFIL in the same column as Hezbollah

Now that UNIFIL has taken casualties from Hezbollah rocket fire [2], it's time to move UNIFIL to a different column and make the infobox less laughable. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 12:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

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