Talk:2024 Atlantic hurricane season/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Second-costliest season

Does anyone have a source stating this season was the second-costliest on record for the Atlantic? Otherwise including this information is WP:SYNTH. JayTee⛈️ 19:40, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, it's way too premature to say that, until we have better cost estimates for Helene and Milton. Maybe the infobox should list the damage as unknown for now? ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The costs are sourced and Helene was specifically sourced from the governor of NC for the majority of it, and Moody’s, who we usually use for preliminary estimates, said it was 85 billion. That’s not SYNTH. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 19:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

But to say that the season is specifically the second-costliest probably needs a source. And we'll probably get that information soon. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 19:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The source doesn't claim that the Atlantic season was the second-most destructive on record, it simply shares an estimate of how much damage Helene caused. There are many other estimates for the storm's damage out there, and by adding together a bunch of sources with high damage estimates and stating this is the second most destructive season we are implying a conclusion not explicitly stated by the sources and that may not even be entirely accurate, which is SYNTH. JayTee⛈️ 19:50, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, it's too soon to tell. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:03, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

No, Moody's said $24-36 billion, with best estimates at $26 billion. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 17:39, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The link you provided does not direct me to any page with an estimate. Also, I'm not clear here on which storm you're providing a damage estimate for. Regardless, one individual source's estimate of one storm's damage does not prove this is the second costliest season. JayTee⛈️ 18:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Milton, and actually look. It says "Moody's estimates of Milton are $24-36 billion, with best estimates of $26 billion" if you scroll slowly and also if you LOOK AT THE WORDS I TELL YOU, ITS EASY TO FIND IT. Also, I am saying that 2024 is not the 2nd costliest season, so actually, you can read this again. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 17:27, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

@Joseph Ca98 1) Don't WP:SHOUT. It's rude, immature, and unnecessary. 2) So you're referring to an estimate of Hurricane Milton's damage. That's not what I'm worried about. I'm concerned about stating this season is the second-costliest when there's no source in place that directly says it. So your addition of the Moody's estimate has no relevance to this discussion. JayTee⛈️ 22:53, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

i just said it's not Joseph Ca98 (talk) 03:38, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

but Miltons damage as 85 billion decreasing with Moody's estimate actually lowers it to third costliest, and thats what i mean. so be quiet. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:23, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to give you a reality check here. This isn't a fight unless you make it one, and Wikipedia is a place for collaboration, not for arguments. You are acting genuinely immature and childish. Your point is not relevant to this discussion. Just because Moody's estimates Milton's damages to be at $85 billion does not prove that this season is the second-costliest on record. We can't arbitrarily put together a bunch of high damages estimates and say that these sources claim this is the second-costliest season on record. It is a violation of WP:SYNTH. On your user page, there are the statements that you are a "PIPING RAGE TUNNEL (13%), HUGE REGRET (54%), MAD AS HECK (3%), or CATEGORY 5 PEACE (39%), with 1% of CALM HYPERCANE". In the most respectful way possible, you strike me as a very young editor that does not demonstrate the self-control and competence to be a productive Wikipedia editor. I would love for you to prove me wrong and start editing and commenting in a collaborative way, unless you want to continually hurl insults and rude statements at me. Learn to calm down, edit productively and actually communicate maturely. And if you're simply unable to, then you're going to harm Wikipedia more than help it. JayTee⛈️ 21:43, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd like to pitch again to list the total damage as "Unknown" for now, to be on the safe side, with a note about the number of billion dollar storms, or something. I'm uncomfortable calling it the second-costliest season when no one reputable has done that. NCEI has good estimates for Beryl and Debby, and include Helene and Milton as billion dollar storms, so we could say, with that source, in the "tens of billions", instead of relying on some unreliable source, while also not saying "Unknown". ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 23:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you. Most of the values for storms are estimated right now, and they have been changing frequently. I'd wait until the end of the season. Shmego2 (talk) 16:10, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, we should probably set this as WPTC policy. Might as well clear out the rest of WP:NOTNEWS. ✶Quxyz✶ 23:08, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I also agree with this, and it should be applied to all active seasons. It's always struck me as strange that damage totals for ongoing seasons do not have at least a note that the figure presented is derived from unofficial estimates. ArkHyena (it/its) 17:33, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Article for the Irina Low

It seems that Leslie’s remnant low merged with another extratropical low which brought flooding to France and Italy. Should we make an article about the Irina low storm (not Hurricane Leslie (2024)) instead? Jpuxfrd (talk) 15:43, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Discerning whether to create an article for Irina, or not, is up to those who focus on European windstorms. This question should be posed at Talk:2024–25 European windstorm season. Drdpw (talk) 16:33, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Subtropical storm patty

It is not a subtropical storm. In comparison to other unnamed systems it barely meets the definition. The NHC will declassify it shortly, and the entry should be removed immediately. To note the front is still attached. It isn’t a subtropical storm. 2605:8D80:325:88C9:7827:9B67:531:4650 (talk) 12:45, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

On a more grounded note, I have made a draft here. ✶Quxyz✶ 14:03, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Are notable impacts in the Azores and/or mainland Europe anticipated from Patty? Drdpw (talk) 19:29, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe that the Azores will have impacts. Looking at Leslie and Kirk, I think Patty will most likely affect Europe. I see no reason why a draft couldn't be developed right now. Shmego2 (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it is Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure, I have only two Azorean sources and I doubt American sources will discuss local preparations in islands in the middle of nowhere. ✶Quxyz✶ 16:55, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

1) The NHC says what is or isn't named not you, 2) It is still considered a subtropical storm so you were wrong, and 3) It has detached from the front Rizzler97628 (talk) 00:30, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

were we talking about that though

no we were not Joseph Ca98 (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

He's responding to the post from the IP address, not about the draft. Shmego2 (talk) 13:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

oh, sorry @Rizzler97628 Joseph Ca98 (talk) 18:16, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

As of November 4th you are right, but we have already made that edit. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 11:51, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Tropical Storm Rafael

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The US National Hurricane Center monitors three disturbances in the Atlantic that warn of the possible formation of a tropical storm https://www.yahoo.com/news/hurricane-center-tracks-growing-caribbean-135700363.html

One of the current focuses is a low pressure in the southern Caribbean that has an 80 percent chance of evolving into a tropical depression in the coming days, according to Fox Weather. If this system reaches sustained winds of 64 km/h, it could be classified as Tropical Storm Rafael and move towards the southern Gulf of Mexico. The trajectory of this phenomenon remains uncertain, with models suggesting possible directions toward the coasts of Mexico or the United States, depending on the prevailing direction conditions. --Pitille02 (talk) 18:24, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

References

@Pitille02: Even if it appears likely that Rafael will develop soon, storms do not get added to this article until they actually form. Wikipedia does not make predictions. There will be no section until the NHC starts issuing advisories. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS: An incipient weather disturbance in the Caribbean Sea is increasingly likely to become a tropical depression or tropical storm in the coming days, according to the National Hurricane Center (NHC). https://www.fox13news.com/news/invest-97l-caribbean-likely-develop-tropical-storm-rafael --Pitille02 (talk) 18:32, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Pitille02: I know. But for the time being, the system is just Invest 97L. We do not create sections for just invests, even with high probabilities. Potential Tropical Cyclones are only mentioned if the NHC initiates advisories. There will only be a section for Rafael if it actually becomes Rafael. TornadoLGS (talk) 18:36, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS: Explicitly there is talk of Tropical Storm and which is affecting Central America just as Tropical Storm Alberto was treated, formed on June 15, 2024, they should also give the same treatment to Rafael Storm https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/invest-97l-likely-become-tropical-storm-rafael-latest-track-projections-florida-impacts. --Pitille02 (talk) 18:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@Pitille02: That's a different matter. With Alberto, the NHC initiated advisories on Potential Tropical Cyclone One. Even then, it was not added here as Alberto until it actually attained tropical storm status. Currently, we only have Invest 97L with no active advisories. If the NHC initiates advisories on Potential Tropical Cyclone Seventeen, then it will be added to "other systems" section. It will get its own section if it becomes Tropical Storm Rafael or Tropical Depression Seventeen. Also worth noting, we had to change how we handle active storms earlier this year to be more in line with guidelines, especially WP:NOTNEWS. TornadoLGS (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Actually, it'd be Potential Cyclone Eighteen. However, I agree with your reasoning. Tavantius (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, advisories on Potential Tropical Cyclone Eighteen cometh soon. Drdpw (talk) 20:44, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

@TornadoLGS i agree with you. It's way too soon for an article, and it might move into Belize before becoming a tropical storm. @Pitille02, @TornadoLGS has told you many times that we need to wait and have self-control before TD 17 forms, and then, if Tropical Storm Rafael forms, then we can make the article, cause it will hit no matter what. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 20:56, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

But even if it does form, @LemonJuiceIsSour already has a draft for Invest 97L, so they will problably work on Rafael ahead of you Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:04, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

As I contribute to the storm's section in this article I am gathering material for a Raphael draft in my sandbox. It is however, too soon for that, we will need a separate discussion about a draft Raphael article. Drdpw (talk) 21:15, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Like I said last time, @LemonJuiceIsSour already is prepared. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:23, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Don’t get into this, you don’t know what’s really happening. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 21:27, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe we can work on it together. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 21:29, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Don’t talk for me. That’s rude. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 21:28, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Please stop with the attacks and the childish comments on the talk page, both LemonJuiceIsSour (talk · contribs), Joseph Ca98 (talk · contribs), and other users who need to be reminded to stay civil. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:31, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

But, he wouldn’t know what I would say. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 21:38, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

That is an issue between you two, which you can hopefully resolve on your user pages. This is the talk page to discuss improvements to the 2024 Atlantic hurricane season article. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 21:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you for leading us the right way. 🍋 🍋(talk!) 21:49, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I remember that in mid-morning they had reverted to me because they ruled out the formation of Hurricane Rafael, and now again they do it again. I was one of those who reported the incident, and now they keep reverting to me. --Pitille02 (talk) 01:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

What do you mean by "report"? Rafael still hasn't formed yet and as stated before, Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball. Tavantius (talk) 01:57, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that we're not a news agency, and your edits are completely against WP:NOTNEWS. Please be patient and wait for the NHC to initiate advisories on the system. CycloneYoris ^talk! 01:59, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Pitille02: Nobody here was saying Rafael wouldn't form. Your edits were reverted because we shouldn't have a section on a storm before it forms. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

But now it has been formed, because they are still withdrawing my contribution. Pitille02 (talk) 03:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It has not formed. Advisories have been issued for Potential Tropical Cyclone Eighteen. That is, formation of a tropical cyclone is probable. It is not yet a tropical cyclone and there still is no storm named Rafael. Also, if you are referring to this edit please refrain from editing while logged out. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

It hasn't formed into a tropical cyclone, Sure it became PTC 18 but it hasn't became a tropical cyclone. SomeoneWiki04 (talk) 09:14, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Exactly! 🍋 🍋(talk!) 13:49, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

As of 16:00 (EDT), Tropical Storm Rafael has already caused damage in Panama, and has caused 4 people to die there too. But before, you were absolutaly right, and there is no reason for me to correct you now. But are we working on an article for it (wait we are never mind) Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:21, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Now, Rafael needs a new picture Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:38, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Also, @LemonJuiceIsSour hi Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Patty new image

PLEASE, update the patty image, it's outdated. SillyNerdo (talk) 00:59, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:DIY. You can screenshot an image of Patty from NASA Worldview and upload it to Wikimedia Commons fairly easily. JayTee⛈️ 01:21, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

i meant the track lol sorry SillyNerdo (talk) 02:11, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

that's an issue every year, the track maps are done by a handful of users who have the proper software. they'll update it just give them a bit of time. JayTee⛈️ 05:20, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Patty Article

I thought ✶Quxyz✶ was making one, but why is there still no article Joseph Ca98 (talk) 12:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I have had work to do and Rafael is more pressing, please be patient or make it yourself. ✶Quxyz✶ 12:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

oh sorry Joseph Ca98 (talk) 12:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not think Patty was a noteworthy storm; a stand-alone article, as far as I can see, is not warranted. Drdpw (talk) 12:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I still think it should have an article though, because when Kirk was a tropical cyclone, it never made landfall, and it made extropical landfall in Europe and got an article. Patty made landfall as a subtropical storm in the Azores, and was a subtropical cyclone when it made landfall. Even though it was not noteworthy, we are working on an encyclopedia, and readers might be interested in Patty. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 13:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

The reasons why Kirk got an article is because of its extensive impacts across several European countries as an extratropical cyclone, along with significant, widespread coverage of it. Patty did not make landfall anywhere (not even the Azores), and produced little impacts there as noted below, so for those reasons, Patty is not notable. It's more likely that readers could just read the section in the article dedicated to Patty and not a non-notable, stand-alone article of it that already has the majority of the section into it (WP:NOPAGE). ~ Tails Wx 13:45, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

So from what I've found, there's were several weather warnings in the Azores as a result of Patty, and was lucky enough to find impacts there, too. There was a landslide in Ribeira Grande, and four flooded homes and a road on São Miguel Island (Ponta Delgada and Vila Franca do Campo). The Açoriano Oriental and Diário dos Açores both report on this. However, this seems like a Hurricane Danielle (2022)-type situation for me; there were several impacts in Portugal territories, but it's simply not enough to warrant a stand-alone article, and can fit inside the section in the article. Six incidents in the Azores is not enough to constitute an article for Patty. On a related note, I didn't find any impacts of Patty in Portugal or Spain. ~ Tails Wx 13:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

It's remnants dissapated before landfall in Europe, good point. Joseph Ca98 (talk) 13:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This information should be added to this article. I will attempt to add it with the sources that you have provided. ✶Quxyz✶ 14:28, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I attempted to help with the Patty storm, but I don't think enough information can be poured into a draft that could suffice for an article. Shmego2 (talk) 22:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Rafael new track image

it's outdated yet again. so, can someone update it please? SillyNerdo (talk) 00:08, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

As has been stated previously, getting updated track maps prepared takes time. Be patient, it will happen sooner rather than later. Drdpw (talk) 00:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@SillyNerdo We Wikipedians are volunteers that can edit at our own discretion. Sometimes we are busy in life and thus can't edit that much, like me when I'm busy with school. Just be patient! INeedSupport ^:3 16:37, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

He does have a point Joseph Ca98 (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

PTC-19 (Sara)

I have been bold and started a page for the new potential tropical cyclone, proto-Sara, as it will impact Central America this weekend and elsewhere after that. I just noticed that I did not create it as a draft, my error: Potential Tropical Cyclone Nineteen (2024). Drdpw (talk) 20:46, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I boldly draftified the article because it is too soon. If anyone wants to counter this, feel free to, but make sure you have a valid reason. _ZZ^Z'S 21:20, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, as I stated, I inadvertently put it in mainspace (for which it is TOOSOON). Drdpw (talk) 21:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)