Talk:2021 Buffalo mayoral election

Opinion polling graphical summary

Earlier today a graphical summary of the polling done in the general election was added to the article by @Pennsylvania2 - while the graphic is well-formatted and the information is accurate, I do not believe that a total of 2 polls conducted warrant a graphical summary. The polls are of questionable value, as well, since they both used prompts that directly asked voters whether they support Byron Brown or India Walton. Since the conclusion of both polling periods, it has become clear that Byron Brown will not be on the ballot. Actual voters will need to write down Brown's name in order to vote for him, and the polls thus do not reflect how the election will actually be conducted. Regardless, the graphical summary is not clarifying or providing any new, useful information to readers. The lines used in the graph are dubious because, in general, a trend cannot be graphed from just two data points. I could not find specific guidelines on opinion polling graphical summaries (and I would be happy to review it if it does exist), but plenty of other elections that have only had two polls conducted do not have graphical summaries. See, for example (as of 9/21/2022), the 2022 PA Senate Democratic primary, the 2022 Alaska Senate Republican primary, the 2021 Cleveland mayoral election. Having a graphical summary of just two polls, despite the fact that the graphical summary is well-done and well-formatted, does not add anything to the article and instead just adds visual clutter.General Lafayette 2785 (talk) 22:19, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

@Pennsylvania2: properly pinging them @General Lafayette 2785: I do agree that a graph with only 2 data points is rather useless as all it will show is a line. I'm going to ask some people on Discord if they know of anything that applies here and let you know if they find anything. ― Blaze The Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#0001} 22:22, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

not only is a graph with two data points not informational, both polls are fatally flawed methodologically speaking, i.e. listing Brown as a candidate when he will not be on the ballot (also the coefficient poll asked some push poll questions). it should be removed. Nevermore27 (talk) 17:12, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

any objections? @General Lafayette 2785: @Blaze The Wolf: @Pennsylvania2: Nevermore27 (talk) 04:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed.General Lafayette 2785 (talk) 16:50, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@Nevermore27: None here. ― Blaze The Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 01:23, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Brown's party

@Pennsylvania2: Your reasoning is fatally flawed. Brown, to my knowledge, has not changed his party registration, so he is, in fact, running for reelection as a Democrat, just not on the Democratic Party ballot line. He created the Buffalo Party as a ploy to get a ballot line in November, which has failed. He will not be on the ballot, nor listed as the nominee of any party. Nevermore27 (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Joe Lieberman never changed his party registration from Democrat, but ran as a member of Connecticut for Lieberman in 2006, which he is listed under. Same here. He may still be a Democrat, but will not be o the ballot as one. He's an independent running under the Buffalo Party. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Lieberman ran as the nominee of the Connecticut for Lieberman Party, but he was never a member of it. Brown has no nomination. He is not running "under the Buffalo Party" because there will be no Buffalo Party line on the ballot. Nevermore27 (talk) 16:25, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

He is still affiliated with the Party and never said that he is not running as a write-in candidate with an affiliation to the Buffalo Party.Pennsylvania2 (talk) 16:51, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Pennsylvania2: @Nevermore27: It is misleading to readers to say that Brown is a Democratic candidate, when he lost the Democratic primary and is not running with the Democratic party. His personal registration might still be Democratic (I don't know and I don't see any sources about his personal registration), but if he is running as a write-in, an independent, or a third party candidate, then he is not running as a Democrat and is instead running against the Democratic nominee. At this point, it might not be best to use the "Buffalo Party" label, because in the past couple weeks it has become clear he WILL NOT be on the ballot with that label. However, he is still not running as a Democratic candidate in this election.General Lafayette 2785 (talk) 18:24, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

yeah it's hard to parse, because regardless of what party he is claiming to be allied with, he is a) still a Democrat by registration (99% sure of that) and b) not going to be on the ballot regardless. He is still a Democratic candidate, he's just not the the Democratic candidate (i.e. the candidate with the party's ballot line) Nevermore27 (talk) 18:42, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

@Pennsylvania2: @Nevermore27: I would support either: 1) removing all party labels from Brown in the article and just referring to him as a "write-in" in the general election or 2) referring to him as an independent write-in and getting rid of references to the Buffalo Party, other than the one sentence explaining he tried to get on the ballot with that label. I still don't think it's accurate to say he is a Democratic candidate, but I don't think it's necessary to use the "Buffalo Party" label anymore. For situations that are a bit complex, like this one, is there some kind of editorial authority we can appeal to?General Lafayette 2785 (talk) 15:14, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

He's a write-in candidate, who is not the Democratic nominee. He said he is running as a member of the Buffalo Party and since missing the ballot has never said that he is retracting that view. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 15:19, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

"Running as a member of the Buffalo Party" is a little misleading since the Buffalo Party only exists as a ploy to try and get Brown on the ballot after he duly lost the Democratic primary. Nevermore27 (talk) 17:30, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Baskin endorsement

@Pennsylvania2: @General Lafayette 2785: You cited WP:ENDORSE in your initial reversion of the Baskin endorsement, but WP:ENDORSE includes this line:

"Whether or not it is necessary for the person to also have a Wikipedia article can be determined at the article level"

So that's a non-starter. The Chair of the County Legislature in which the election is taking place is undeniably a notable person to endorse. Nevermore27 (talk) 03:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Then why were Byron Brown's endorsements from City Councilors removed? That's probably more notable than some county legislature.Pennsylvania2 (talk) 14:47, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Well I didn't remove them but they should probably be added back in. Nevermore27 (talk) 16:00, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree that they should be added back in.General Lafayette 2785 (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Byron's failed lawsuit.

Byron in fact sued the Erie County Board of Elections. Dispute Y/N? https://buffalonews.com/news/local/government-and-politics/board-of-elections-to-mull-appeal-of-rulings-that-put-byron-brown-on-the-ballot/article_31333a3a-0d7c-11ec-99d2-833745e8c240.html The Second Circuit Court of Appeals issued a stay which disallows Byron's 'Buffalo Party' listing. Dispute Y/N? https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/buffalo/politics/2021/09/16/india-walton-wins-state-appeal The Erie Board of Elections has certified, printed and sent ballots without Byron's name on them. Dispute Y/N? https://www.wbfo.org/politics/2021-09-17/erie-county-board-of-election-certifies-november-ballot This information is objective and verifiable. Dispute Y/N — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7080:A33E:4EAB:3553:7162:E249:6A1D (talk) 18:23, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Massive loss for the far-left in this country

Should be made clear in the article.

80.131.55.128 (talk) 22:26, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

That seems like original research to me, which Wikipedia prohibits, unless multiple reliable news sources are also saying this. —twotwofourtysix^{(My talk page and contributions)} 23:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Article content & Infobox should be in sync, with who was elected mayor.

I haven't checked this article's contrib history, so I don't know who removed Brown from the infobox's entry. A removal that suggests he hasn't been re-elected mayor. The removal put the infobox out-of-sync with the article's content, which has Brown as being re-elected mayor. So, Why was Brown removed & replaced with 'TBD'? GoodDay (talk) 23:44, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

@GoodDay: sources seem to say that the results indicate that Brown has won, not that he actually has. This makes sense given that the mail-in votes could technically be for anyone. (sidenote: I looked at how this was previously done in the 2010 United States Senate election in Alaska and results weren't listed in the infobox until after the race was called for Murkowski.) I think it's reasonable to include Brown as was done before, nor exclude him until we actually have tabulated the write-ins, I don't have a strong opinion on this. Just tryna provide some context here :) Elli (talk | contribs) 23:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

How could we possibly say he was elected when the write-in tabulation doesn't even start until the 17th? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:46, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Fine, we'll do it your way. I'm in no mood for a waste-of-time edit war. GoodDay (talk) 00:50, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

If your way is fabricating the results of an election, then yes, we'll do it my way. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 00:52, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Brown should be indicated in the infobox as he viewed by multiple sources as the likely winner. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 01:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

No, he shouldn't. "Likely winner" does not equal "winner". No RS have actually called the election for Brown. That is WP:CRYSTAL from you again. Please, actually go read that policy. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 01:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Wrong. Daily Beast, US News and World Report and the Legislative Gazette have all called it. Do some research. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 02:24, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Provide your sources. There is no way that's true, as not a single one of the write-in votes has been counted, and they won't be until the 17th! Those outlets you have stated do not make projections. Outlets like the NYT do, and they have not called it. How could they? The votes haven't been counted yet. Yours is a patently nonsensical position. I won't be told to "do some research" by an editor who can't figure out how to cite a source for an edit declaring the winner of an election. And removing the source I had cited for the results in the process, BTW. You need to familiarize yourself with our sourcing policies. If you can show me a source with the number of votes Brown got (not the number of write-ins total, the actual number of votes he got), then we can add it to the article. But you can't, because no such source exists yet, and won't until the 17th. We need hard numbers, not media speculation about who the write-ins were for. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 02:37, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

See: [1], phttps://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/new-york/articles/2021-11-03/buffalo-mayor-claims-write-in-win-but-votes-still-uncounted] and [2]. Pennsylvania2 (talk) 20:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read what I wrote? Neither of those outlets have decision desks. These are journalistic guesses about who the write-ins will be for, which WP:CRYSTAL does not allow us to state as true. We can state, with attribution, that these sources believe Brown won, but that is it. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:48, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

FWIW, Brown has been re-elected. GoodDay (talk) 04:46, 21 November 2021 (UTC)