Talk:1974–75 Shatt al-Arab conflict

Orphaned references in 1974–75 Shatt al-Arab clashes

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of 1974–75 Shatt al-Arab clashes's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "iranicaonline":

• From Persecution of Zoroastrians: "IRAN ii. IRANIAN HISTORY (2) Islamic period – Encyclopaedia Iranica". iranicaonline.org. Retrieved 23 September 2014.
• From Kurdish languages: "Lak Tribe". Iranica Online. Retrieved 25 May 2019.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Incomplete article

There is no mention of the disputed territories along the central section of the common border (four or five areas), which Iran had not given back as they should have per the Algiers agreement. For reference see, at 4:20 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE8b_3yvoKc

188.148.79.86 (talk) 14:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Change In Result

@damian lewThe two sources you've used talk about conflict between the Iraqi and Kurdish conflicts instead of the one between Iran and Iraq. The first source is : Chemical Weapons Use in Kurdistan: Iraq's Final Offensive : a Staff Report to the Committee on Foreign Relations, United States Senate. U.S. Government Printing Office. 1988 p9., which is a report that focuses on the usage of chemical weapons by the Iraqi Government rather than the conflict between Iran and Iraq (which is only briefly mentioned), the 2nd source is Gibson, Bryan (2016). Sold Out? US Foreign Policy, Iraq, the Kurds, and the Cold War. Springer. p. 177. ISBN 9781137517159., which again is focused more on Kurdish and Iraqi clashes and mentions Iranian support for the Kurds, the source that mentions the conflict to be an Iranian victory looks at the conflict in more detail and provides far more analysis rather than the two aforementioned sources that briefy glance over it.Overall the 2 sources talk about the conflict in Kurdistan, however this article is about the conflict in Shatt al Arab. For now I'm reverting the article back to the old version, if you have any objections feel free to reply on this topic over here. Kindly do not revert the edit now and discuss it here. Before changing or reverting the edit please see the consequences of repeatedly doing so: WP:Editwarring. Thanks! Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 22:13, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The issues you've raised as it pertains to the sources in question are irrelevant, since the dispute that this article is about was part of a larger conflict and should appropriately be discussed as such. Moreover the source that you're citing for the result (Which I myself have cited and didn't remove) is from a section that is covering the Second Iraqi–Kurdish War and goes to little details about this specific conflict further than that. The source itself considers the dispute to have been politically settled in favor of Iran, as opposed to militarily settled which the other sources dispute accordingly. Please refrain from arbitrarily removing sources from the article without any adequate reason WP:TASTE Damian Lew (talk) 23:24, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources you've given talk about the conflict in Kurdistan, this article is about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab, therefore the sources need to talk about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab rather than Kurdistan Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 23:25, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The conflicts are interlinked and the sources are evidently talking this same conflict, the result of which and the Algiers agreement. With explicit mentions of Iran and its head of state, the Shah. Damian Lew (talk) 23:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Even though the conflicts are interlinked they're not part of a single article, this article is about the conflict that took place in Shatt Al Arab, not Kurdistan, furthermore the source talks about how it was the Peshmerga,supported by Iran that lost , the source is explicitly talking about the Kurdish front (not the front on Shatt Al Arab) Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 23:36, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources are evidently referring to the overall conflict and Iran as an active belligerent in it. Damian Lew (talk) 23:39, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources are referring to Iranian support for Peshmerga and Kurdish rebels, that is clearly not the front on Shatt Al Arab Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 23:41, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Please refrain from misrepresenting the sources when they're explicitly referring to the border dispute between the two countries: "The Shah of Iran realized that the war appeared stalemated and there were limited prospects for a change of regime in Baghdad. With Algerian mediation, Iraq and Iran signed an agreement in March 1975 settling a series of disputes between the neighbors"(1) "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred].” Over the next week, tensions escalated further, with Iraq killing two Iranian children during a bombing raid, artillery exchanges, and finally a five-hour pitched battle on August 23"(2) Damian Lew (talk) 23:52, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Key words from what you've just quoted from the source: "Fearing a Kurdish defeat" the source is literally talking about how the Shah feared the Kurds being defeated and signed a treaty, this has nothing to do with the front on Shatt Al Arab Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 00:04, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Please keep the replies relevant and within reason. Damian Lew (talk) 01:24, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The replies are definitely within reason, the sources you've provided give a completely different front of the conflict (Kurdistan), even though this article's about the front in Shatt Al Arab Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 07:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

They do not as I've already demonstrated. Please refrain from arbitrarily removing sources from the article without any adequate reasons WP:TASTE Damian Lew (talk) 18:18, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

As already stated multiple times, the sources talk about a completely different front of the conflict between Iran and Iraq, please thoroughly read and understand them. The sources talk about how the Shah withdrew his support after realising Kurdish resistance was futile, this has nothing to do with the front in Shatt Al Arab, please use sources that talk about this conflict rather than another fromt Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 18:22, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources explicitly mention the border dispute between the two countries, Iran as an active belligerent and the broader conflict which the dispute is part of, according to the result of which the settlement took place. As do the majority of the other sources cited in the article, including the one you're citing (which I haven't removed). I suggest you get another moderator to look into this as this is clearly going nowhere. Damian Lew (talk) 18:27, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

The sources only briefly glance over the Shatt Al Arab front, they mainly focus on Iranian SUPPORT for Kurdish groups, not direct military involvement in Kurdistan, please read the source clearly (rather than reading a single sentence or highlight). Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Please refrain from misrepresenting the sources when they're explicitly referring to the border dispute between the two countries: "The Shah of Iran realized that the war appeared stalemated and there were limited prospects for a change of regime in Baghdad. With Algerian mediation, Iraq and Iran signed an agreement in March 1975 settling a series of disputes between the neighbors"(1) "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred].” Over the next week, tensions escalated further, with Iraq killing two Iranian children during a bombing raid, artillery exchanges, and finally a five-hour pitched battle on August 23"(2) Damian Lew (talk) 18:45, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Again, I suggest you get impartial moderation. Otherwise I'm not obligated to respond to you after I made my position evidently clear. Additionally I hope you stop arbitrarily removing sources from the article. Damian Lew (talk) 18:50, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran I've read your message and am really sorry to disturb, however we really need some sort of moderation or third party to step in to form a consensus Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 19:26, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:3O can help with that. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

For an analogy, you wouldn't be using a source talking about how the Eastern Front in World War 2 was successful,to declare the Western Front being the same. Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 18:23, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@HistoryofIranwhat's your opinion on this? Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 23:42, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@Salman Cooper Mapping and Damian Lew: I'm thinking about providing a third opinion per WP:3O. Are you able to provide chapters and quotes from the sources? If we have direct quotes, it would be much easier to provide an opinion.--WMrapids (talk) 14:52, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for your willingness to provide a third opinion. The main argument here is that the sources provided by Damian Lew talk about the Second Iraqi-Kurdish War rather than the front in Shatt Al Arab, this is supported by the fact that the source (when talking about the conflict) starts with the sentence "Fearing a Kurdish defeat, the Iranians responded to Iraq’s offensive by initiating clashes along the border further to the south and authorizing its forces “to return fire and shoot to kill instead of firing warning shots when border raids [occurred], this is clearly referring to how the Iranian government initiated clashes in the south after fearing a KURDISH defeat, which was clearly nowhere near Shatt Al Arab. Furthermore, after this the source goes on to talk about how the war was a stalemate after the withdrawal of Iranian support for Kurdish resistance groups such as the Peshmerga, again this is clearly alluding to the conflict in Kurdistan rather than the one in Shatt Al Arab. It then goes on to talk about how the war was a political victory for Iran. My point is that after reading all of this one can clearly point out that the sources are referring to an overall conflict between Iran and Iraq in both Kurdistan and Shatt Al Arab, and then goes on to talk about how the Iranians won in Shatt Al Arab but it was Iraq that won in Kurdistan, this would obviously be considered a stalemate, however the problem arises due to the fact that this article is only about the conflict in Shatt Al Arab (not Kurdistan) which is why it must be considered an Iranian victory. Moreover if one reads the entire article, which only talks about Iranian successes, they could easily question how this could have resulted in a so called "stalemate". Overall what I'm trying to say is the fact that the sources provided by the opposing party are talking about an overall conflict on a larger scale, rather than one that specifically occured in the front that the article is talking about (similar to how one wouldn't use sources about the Eastern front in World War II to talk about the Western front). Salman Cooper Mapping (talk) 15:35, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Greetings, I strongly recommend reading the back and fourth we had earlier in this discussion, I already quoted the sources and made my position evidently clear. I'd be repeating myself for for the third or fourth time at this point in response to blatantly false claims, misrepresentation, false equivalency and arbitrary selection of sources. Damian Lew (talk) 16:37, 29 December 2023 (UTC)