Talk:17th Infantry Division "Pavia"

This division was not motorised

I note that Jim Sweeney believes that autotrasportabile is the same as motorised ((cur) (prev) 09:39, 9 April 2009 Jim Sweeney (talk | contribs) m (5,506 bytes) (moved 17 Infantry Division Pavia to 17 Motorised Division Pavia: correct name) (undo) ). It is not. The Italian army used two different words for two different things for a reason. Autotrasportabile means that a division could be moved by truck by virtue of its organisation, but that it did not have the transport capacity as part of its own structure to do so, i.e. it would depend on transport being made available to it by higher headquarters to be moved by truck (this was the same system as was used by the British army for its infantry divisions in the war. Motorised means that a division was fully equipped with trucks sufficient to transport it. Therefore the correct name of e.g. Pavia in English would be "truck moveable", not "motorised". http://niehorster.orbat.com/019_italy/40_organ/div_autotrans_40as.html I therefore think that all the articles about the North African infantry divisions should be renamed accordingly, in order to avoid giving the wrong impression. 79.74.113.219 (talk) 07:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

See the note added to the text --Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Name of the Division

Per Rickuz85 (talk · contribs) comments in his latest diff, he appears to have a point. Due to a move requiring me to sell off most of my desert related works, I am having to relay on Google Books mostly and no longer have access to some more academic works on the subject. I have only looked at English language sources to establish the common English name. There does not appear to be one.

The following source labels the division "semi-motorized", "partially motorized", or "autotrasportabile"

• Pettibone, The Organization and Order of Battle of Militaries in World War II
• Hammond, El Alamein: The Battle that Turned the Tide of the Second World War
• Burgwyn, Mussolini Warlord: Failed Dreams of Empire, 1940-1943
• Various, Germany and the Second World War, Vol 3

The following sources labels the division "infantry"

• Friedrich, The Cruel Slaughter of Adolf Hitler
• Jowett, The Italian Army 1940-45 (2): Africa 1940-43 (To note, on page 13 he also calls them motorized divisions, but comments that the term was largely theoretical)
• Mitcham, Rommel's Desert War: The Life and Death of the Afrika Korps
• Latimer, Alamein
• Griffith, World War II Desert Tactics
• Friedrich, The Cruel Slaughter of Adolf Hitler
• Majdalany, The Battle of El Alamein: Fortress in the Sand
• Mitcham, Triumphant Fox (To note he just uses the division's name, but places it within the context being part of the XXI Infantry Corps.)
• Mitcham, The Rise of the Wehrmacht: The German Armed Forces in World War II
• Moreman, Desert Rats: British 8th Army in North Africa 1941-43
• Carver, Dilemmas of the Desert War

The following sources just call the division variants of the "27th Brescia Division"

• Playfair, The Mediterranean and Middle East Volumes I through III
• Latimer, Tobruk 1941: Rommel's Opening Move
• Battistelli, Italian soldier in North Africa 1941-43
• Ford, El Alamein 1942
• Ford, Operation Crusader 1941
• Fuller, A Military History of the Western World, vol 3
• Kurowski, Das Afrika Korps: Erwin Rommel and the Germans in Africa, 1941-43
• Boog, Germany and the Second World War: Vol 6

It would seem, without any other evidence, the title of the article is incorrect. The next question would be, what is the most accurate description?EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 05:30, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

At the time motorised seemed the best description - but if you have any better suggestions. Infantry with the explanation note already given would work. Jim Sweeney (talk) 07:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi Jim, thanks for the feedback. It would seem the majority, by a slim margin, of the sources (the above just being the books off the first page or two of google books) would seem to agree on the term infantry.

I agree, that to explain the somewhat complicated nature of these divisions, the note should remain or be brought into the text. However, do we have a specific source we could cite for it? When I was doing my quick search earlier, I do not recall seeing any source that really explained the nature of these divisions and there was a lot (as can be seen above) mixed terminology.EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:17, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Note: "The Cruel Slaughter of Adolf Hitler", cited above, appears to be a self-published book published via lulu.com, and so cannot be used as a source for Wikipedia articles, per WP:RS. -- The Anome (talk) 08:17, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

OrBat of the Division

The Italian name for the division was: 17ª Divisione fanteria "Pavia" and it was organized as divisione autotrasportabili tipo Africa Settentrionale (auto-transportable division North African type). There were three types of motorized/semi-motorized division in the Regio Esercito: motorizzato, autotrasportabili tipo metropolitano and autotrasportabili tipo Africa Settentrionale. Only two divisions were truly motorized and therefore named: 101ª Divisione motorizzata "Trieste" 102ª Divisione motorizzata "Trento" and their Unit Insignia were red and as opposed to all other infantry division, which were blue. All the other divisions that are listed as motorized here on the English wiki (9th, 10th, 16th, 17th, 25th, 27th, 52nd, 103rd, 104th, 105th) were in fact infantry divisions of the autotrasportabili type. The difference between motorizzato and autotrasportabili was that the motorized divisions were fully motorized, while the auto-transportable divisions had fully motorized artillery but only partially motorized infantry and required transport from the Autogruppi di Corpo d'Armata (Army Corps Auto groups). The main difference between a autotrasportabili tipo metropolitano and autotrasportabili tipo Africa Settentrionale division was that the latter had no animals whatsoever and an additional battalion with 46x L35 tanks. To sum it up: actually the 9th, 10th, 16th, 17th, 25th, 27th, 52nd, 103rd, 104th, 105th ought all be renamed as Infantry division; with a note explaining that they were partially motorized. For more info on the various Italian divisions OrBat's please look at it:https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisioni_del_Regio_Esercito_nella_seconda_guerra_mondiale. noclador (talk) 13:31, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 21 February 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to 17th Infantry Division Pavia. Number 57 22:08, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

---

17th Motorised Division Pavia → 17th Pavia Division, 17ª Divisione fanteria "Pavia", or 17th Infantry Division Pavia – Per the various sources above. EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:03, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

The last one seems the most appropriate since it's the literal translation of the Italian-language name.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:08, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

• Support 17th Infantry Division Pavia Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:24, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
• Support 17th Infantry Division Pavia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:29, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Recent edit

Preserving here by providing this link; my rationale was: "streamline infobox; OR; nn battles & commanders in infobox; article is not about the 19th century unit; dubious ext links". --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:24, 2 December 2018 (UTC)