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Moving of article

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From WP:RfD:

  • π → Pi - Bletcherous abortion caused by the English Wikipedia's non-support of UTF-8 characters in article titles (click on the first entry to see where it takes you). Noel (talk) 04:23, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Keep this one, and never mind what pops up when you try to edit the redirect. Most people will never see it, and like the nearly-as-bletcherous π (π), it's potentially useful to link from. --Cryptic (talk) 07:15, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Now that the English Wikipedia supports UTF-8, this is no longer ugly, so yeah, let's keep it. Note the bizarreness though - even though the character (above) is a lower-case pi, it takes you to an upper-case pi page! Presumably this is more of the Wikipedia "uppercase the first character of article names" at work? Noel (talk) 30 June 2005 03:43 (UTC)
      • Yup, the first character of an article is always upper case, annoying though it may be. I think that's the next thing that should be fixed now that we've gotten the pretty UTF-8 support (yay. thanks devs!). --W(t) 30 June 2005 03:51 (UTC)

Where should redirect point to?

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There are two condenders, move to pi (disambiguation) or pi. I cite the principle of least suprise as the guiding force here. User:Gene Nygaard thinks that the principle of least suprise indicates that we should redir to the dab page, because people expecting the trancedental number can use the dab page, but the people looking for something else, would be suprised finding the article on the transcedental number. I would argue, that the people looking for something else can just use the hatnote on the pi page. Also, WP:MOSDP says "When a page has "(disambiguation)" in the title, users are unlikely to stumble on it by accident." This is somewhat of an endorsement to not redirect to disambig pages. The real concern should be that of readers, and most readers looking for the article would probably be looking for the number, and redirecting a disambig page, would be a suprise. Also, of a somewhat lesser concern to the readers is the editors. It is probably likely that an editor will put a link in like this [[π]]. This should probably link to the article on the number. If an editor means something else, then a link to a disambig page is wrong, beacuse it should link to the article that they really mean (like product operator or osmotic pressure) only in the rare case of someone wanting to talk about all the things that the symbol or the letter is used, but the only place that that should really be happening, is on the Pi (disambiguation) page (or π (disambiguation) if such an article existed). One last comment is that there is a contingency of people who think that the i article should be moved here. Those who disagree don't think that π is less correct, they just think that pi is easier to type, and looks better in a url.... So, I currently stand by my vote of redirecting to pi. McKay 05:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My instincts are with McKay here. As I've said more than once, if the technical problems could be solved, I'd be in favor of moving the article to π. However, it probably should be considered that many of the links to π are not about the number. --Trovatore 05:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said before, if there's a link to π it either about the number or is wrong, because pointing to a disambiguation page is virtually never correct. McKay 14:20, 25 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Pointing to a disambiguation page is absolutely correct, when it has many different meanings and in almost all cases, the meaning of the uppercase letter is different from the meaning of the lowercase letter, especially since initial capitalization is turned on in this wikipedia. Gene Nygaard 22:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we do have ambiguous capitalization. The article in question is equally π as it is Π. So we need to consider, when someone uses one, is there something that is usually meant, or are any just as likely? I contest that the vast majority of people who enter one of these two are looking for the number. those who aren't can just click on the hatnote at the top of the Pi page. Google search for "Π" More than 1/2 of the links (that I looked at) are for the number.
As additional evidence, lets look at the canonical WP:DAB articles of "school" and "blockbuster" We know that there shouldn't actually be anything linking to this article, so we'll ignore (or fix) articles, and only look at redirects. (FYI, I chose those two articles (and wrote this note) before looking at their data, I assure you that my results are unbiased. Also, I'm not sure what this means until later, I'll do my analysis then)
What links here:
Analysis I have to admit, that I was afraid as I was doing the one for blockbuster, because it didn't support the conclusion that I was hoping for (that we shouldn't redirect to dab pages), and while there is cause to redirect terms that are generic to dab pages in cases like "blockbuster", "school" was completely different. School is of the type that we have a dab page sepearate from the school article, because "school" generally means the kind of thing at school. My argument here, is that we have a Pi article, that's about the number, and a Pi (disambiguation) article that's about other things that "pi" could mean. So, I think that the rule should be (and both "school" and "blockbuster" sides with me if I phrase it thusly:) that an alternate (blockbusters:blockbuster::skool:school::π:pi) should redirect to a term without parenthesis, without regard to whether or not that page is a dab page. The only above mentioned redirect which is in contrary to this "rule" is Schooling, which I (obviously) think should be changed as a redirect to school, but because of it's nature, might be best as a redir to the dab page. Whaddaya think? Oh, I'm moving my proposal to the MOSDP talk page to, now that I've quantified it. McKay 04:22, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
But "School" and "school" aren't different things, as π and Π are.
And a capitalized "Blockbuster" (which itself has several meanings) is usually different from "blockbuster" (also a couple of meanings), so the article Blockbuster which you'd get from a link to either "blockbuster" or "Blockbuster" is a disambiguation page. Same reason "Π" should link to the disambiguation page. Gene Nygaard 15:48, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Pi and pi are different things (as the constant should be lowercase), but it was still decided that Pi should be the article on the number, because the number is much more popular, Π is just another way of writing Pi, so they should be the same article. "Internet" means something different than "internet", but because, in almost all circumstances, people want "Internet" (even when they don't know the difference), so the article at internet is about "Internet". This seems to me to be an identical situation as π All redirects that are related concepts also point to Internet (like intarnut, internet-based, interlec, interNet, inter net, inter Net, inter-net, inter-Net, and others).
Also, you should read the discussion on the talk page at WP:MOSDP, where people generally agree with me. McKay 16:17, 5 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are wrong again, of course. Pi, like any other normal word, is capitalized when it begins a sentence and lowercase pi in the middle of a sentence. Gene Nygaard 22:35, 6 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A, that comment was in a demeaning tone. B. I was making my comment based partially on conversation at Talk:Pi. C. I the only thing you can do comment how I was mistaken about pi vs Pi? What about my other comments? D. "Again"?? what was my first mistake? was it large enough to bring up in this matter, or are you just nitpicking? McKay 03:48, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lowercase

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I removed {{lowercase|p|redirect}} because it has no effect on a redirect, and if it did, then it should contain the lowercase Greek letter "π", pronounced "pi", rather than the lowercase English or Greek letter "p", pronounced "pee" or "rho" in English or Greek, respectively. Also, the first and second parameters actually have no effect on the current template.   — Jeff G. ツ 08:31, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Eh...

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For some reason, ϖ shows up here and redirects to the article on the math symbol. It's an entirely different symbol that should point to its own article or to pi (letter). Any idea what's going on there? — LlywelynII 00:32, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that ϖ is the lower case mapping of Π, so it behaves exactly like π. This is not MediaWiki's doing, but the browser's. That means we cannot make a separate redirect. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 16:16, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect dispute

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Two users want to redirect this page to Pi, the mathematical constant, but I do not agree with them. I want to redirect this page to Pi (letter) because this character comes under the greek letters. 68.195.141.2 (talk) 02:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect target

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I do not like it that Pppery keeps changing the redirect of Π. It is not fair for the user. Neel.arunabh (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Neel.arunabh, Pppery, and Christian75: the redirect target has been moved back and forth by you in contention with an IP editor (who I cannot ping but will notify) with no discussion here on the talk page since 2018 (see above) and not much then. This is not helpful. Please form a consensus here (or using RfD if need be) so that the redirect can be stable. I would point out that the most common mathematical use for the upper-case letter Pi is described at Multiplication#Capital_pi_notation, a notation for a product series. But in any case, can we perhaps get a consensus on the target? DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 17:36, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC has guidance, perhaps helpful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:47, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just redirect to Pi (disambiguation)? That seems most natural here. The comparative difficulty of entering a pi on non-Greek keyboards makes this much less likely a search term for the constant. An easy extra click through the dab page (which gives the letter and the constant right at the top already) isn't overly burdensome then. Plus, if this page redirects to the letter, it would require a a {{redirect}} hatnote there, which shouldn't otherwise be needed. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 18:03, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) When I inserted the sub-topic header along with my comment, Deacon Vorbis, there had been no discussion on the matter for almost 2 years. A new sub-header seemed reasonable. I came here from the Help desk comments. I edit-conflicted with the comment by Neel.arunabh. You deleted the sub-header without ndiscussion, but let that go.I also strongly object to the indent being added to my comment which makes it appear to be a reply to the comment by Neel.arunabh, which it was not. I have reverted that change. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 18:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the actual issue here I tend to agree with Deacon Vorbis, targeting the redirect to the DAB page makes the most sense. The Greek letter has different mathematical meanings for upper case and lower case, but technical limitations prevent separate redirects for these. I suspect the mathematical constant is the primary topic, but the Greek letter is not uncommon, and the product symbol can also occur. The usual outcome would be to target the redirect to the primary topic, which I think is the mathematical constant, but there is enough ambiguity that the DAB page might be better, and it is at worst one extra click. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 18:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds reasonable enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:41, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also !vote for redirecting to the disambig page. This is an unusual enough case that our general guidelines are not a lot of help, except that we should try to follow the spirit of the reasoning behind them. Redirecting to the article on the letter is not a good option because (I suspect) that will go to the right place for only a tiny minority of searches. Redirecting to the article on the number makes somewhat more sense, but we should not be encouraging the direct linking of symbols in math/science articles (links from inside equations are usually just confusing). So the disambig it is, as the default position. --Trovatore (talk) 20:43, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    As a further practical consideration, when editors do directly link the π symbol from inside equations, it will be easier to find and fix if the target is a disambig than if it goes to the article about the letter. --Trovatore (talk) 21:32, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I !vote for redirecting to the disambig also. I do not feel that any of the uses can be considered sufficiently "primary" to override this, especially with the crazinees surrounding uppercase versus lowercase. I personally feel the primary for the uppercase symbol is Multiplication#Capital_pi_notation. -Arch dude (talk) 00:49, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agreed. !vote for redirecting to the disambig since I see both the letter and the mathematical value being equally important. Zinnober9 (talk) 03:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalize title because of redirect to disambiguation page

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