Talk:İstiklal Marşı

Translation

I would like to offer my translation of the first two verses for consideration as a way of capturing the gist of the lyrics while attempting to match the syllable count, maintain a rhyme scheme, and have the translation be singable. I am not Turkish but I hope this does justice to the original.

Fear not ye this crimson flag in the winds shall never cease to soar / Last of the endlessly blazing hearths above my motherland / That is my nation’s very own brightly shining beacon-star / That is mine, that is unmistakably my motherland’s.

Spite not, coy crescent, thy face—a sacrifice let me be / Smile on my lineage of heroes—why this anger, why this pride? / For would not the blood we shed be undeserving of thee / Freedom is my God-exalting nation’s fundamental right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metonyme (talk • contribs) 15:32, 7 November 2006

Woohoo! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.214.177.167 (talk • contribs) 16:55, 4 March 2006

• I am giving you the best Vandal of the week award! What does "Woohoo!" mean! When I see vandals like you, I don't erase your "interesting" writings. I let people to see the finest examples of the vandalism. With respect, the son of the nomadic warriors, Deliogul 16:12, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• I'm disappointed to see that the English translation does not match the Turkish verses precisely and often adds some words (i.e. where is the word "proudly" on the first line of the original?) and misinterprets others ("Ulusun! Korkma." is translated to: "Recognize your innate strength, my friend" rather than the more accurate "Let it howl. Do not be afraid."). I still appreciate the effort of the translator, however, so rather than editing this translation I would like to add my own -- more accurate -- translation to the page soon. This way English readers can read Mehmet Akif purely without the interpretations of a translator. Thanks. RingOfGyges 22:00, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I would be happy to see any alternative translations and especially ones that try to take into account the original religious context within which the author was operating. But are you saying that it is impossible to capture that religiosity using modern translation-equivalents? If so, does that not render the set of religious connotations inaccessible to a secular audience, thus only sharpening the divide between secular and religious audiences? For example, in Islam one is supposed to refer to God as Allah. But the word "Allah" which means "the [one and only] God" predated the appearance of Islam in the history of the Arabic language. In fact the word is related to "ilah" which means "a/any god" which suggests that before the advent of Islam, "allah" could simply be taken to mean the god (in response to which one could ask, "well, which one are you talking about?"). Hence by insisting on one particular interpretation of the word, one ignores the rich history of the word and the myriad ways in which it has been understood over time. It seems that the person who wrote the comment below would object to such a selective forgetting of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metonyme (talk • contribs) 15:48, 7 November 2006

The translation can be worked on but a commendable effort

I was disapointed with the translation because I feel it does not take into account the history of the writer of the poem, Mehmet Akif Ersoy.

We musn't forget he was a religious poet. He was known in the Muslim world as a poet who used to write poems that encouraged people. His poems were very zealious and this one is nothing short.

When reading the poem in Turkish we must remember that it was written in a time when the Turkish language was slightly different to the form it is in now. It was influenced by Arabic and Persian a lot more than it is now. Once again if we look at the history of the poet we must imagine the context he wrote it and not the context that we may understand the poem now. Turkey is a country that is very influenced by nationalism. Where as the poem was written at a time and by a guy that was very religious.

When reading the translations of the Quran which is Arabic the translator often adds commentary in brackets which was not in the original language. This is because the context of the language may be mis-intepreted with translation. The same must be done in the translation of the poem.

When readers of the poem translate this we must ask how familiar they are with the language and how familiar they are with the language of the time it was written as well as how familiar they are with the language of the Quran. I say this because a lot of people who are Turkish may translate this with their secular goggles on forgetting it was written by an Islamist.

I will add my version of the translation above the former version in hope that we can benifit from both. Of course I am only human and there may also be errors with mine. Id like to hear from people if there are. may Allah accept our efforts as noble. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kibrisli7 (talk • contribs) 15:32, 2 September 2006.

Only two verses?

All the vocal recordings I could find on the net cover only the first two verses of the Anthem. Is there a vocal version of the entire anthem out there, or are only the first two verses considered the Anthem? Inkan1969 04:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

♦ Yes, as it is stated in the article, only first two verses are sung. (probably for saving time) 88.228.156.112 10:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)calasus

Why 2 translations?

I think there should be one definite translation with more clarifying notes. As it is now, I don't see how it is justified to have 2 very similar translations. 67.183.83.235 08:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

"Garb'ın âfâkını sarmışsa çelik zırhlı duvar,..."

As a Turk I wouldn't translate this line with "The lands of the West may be armored with walls of steel"

I think the poem has a more defensive characteric than a offensive one. After all it is written reffering to a big struggle for independence where the western countries were attacking Turkey, not the other way round.

In my opinion the words "Garb'ın afakını" (In modern Turkish: "Batı'nın dört bir yanını") could also be understood as the "western side of Turkey" which was surrounded with a lot of modernest battleships (particularly the battlefront at Aegean Sea; battles of Çanakkale and Gallipoli), therefore "walls of steel"?

Nonetheless it was also the eastern side of Turkey which was under hostile attack, so my theory could be wrong, but Ersoy was afaik especially involved at the western front, travelling from town to town, preaching and motivating soldier troops before they would strike out to the fronts - e.g. in Izmir.

But this is just a interpretation of mine. You can both agree or disagree... --85.178.155.166 02:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

You make a fair point, as the most costly front was by far the western one the others were resolved quite quickly. --Armanalp (talk) 15:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

İstiklal Marşı Bestesi Nerden Alındı

-This is Engllish language Wikipedia, remember? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.186.197.60 (talk) 14:51, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

İstiklal Marşı Bestesi Alman yahut Avusturya'nın Karmen Silva sokak Marşından alınmıştır. Kaynak:20.04.2208 Taraf Gazetesi - Ayşe Hür --212.175.115.4 (talk) 17:58, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

"Race" in the English translation

Are you sure that the right translation of "ırk" in Ottoman Turkish is "race"? In modern Turkish, "ırk" means "race", but it has a different meaning in Ottoman Turkish, and it should be. Because the poet of this poem is Mehmet Akif Ersoy who was form Albanian origin. Also, many of his poems he says that race (sometimes even nation) is a foolish concept and actually religion is important. So I think "nation" is better translate for this word. Actually even nation doesn't correspond for this word, because what Akif understands from "millet" and "ırk" words is much more different from today. "Millet" has also a religion-related meaning which is not used now. (see Millet (Ottoman Empire)) As you can see, he never used "Turk" word in İstiklâl Marşı, and neither any of his poems. For one of his poems that he opposed nationalism and the menaing of these words Akif used check [1] (Turkish)--Cfsenel (talk) 22:41, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

[2] Another English translation of the İstiklal Marşı which also has the original Ottoman Turkish text of the anthem. "Irk" is translated as "nation" here which I think better than "race". --Cfsenel (talk) 22:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

İstilal Marşı is not a "Turkish racist" poem. It is an Islamist and anti-Western poem. Islamism is used heavily in it. On the other hand "Irk" is not a "Turkish" word. It is an Arabic word and it means "race." It doesn't mean "family" or "generation." There is a Turkish word "ırk" which means omen (Irk Bitig). Thus, the "ırk" in the anthem means "race" as an Arabic word. So you can ask "then, which 'race' is it?" It is the Semitic race. In Islam, Semitic race is superrior and every muslim is needed to assimilate into Semitic race (Arab).--85.106.193.247 (talk) 05:37, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Sound file with Lyrics

It would be nice to embed a version with chorus to accompany the the purely orchestral version. If anyone has a usable source, please contribute.Mavigogun (talk) 05:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Music

Is the same music/melody for the Turkish anthem also used for that of Azerbaijan? --71.111.194.50 (talk) 01:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

No. The melodies were composed by different composers and are completely different. You can listen to a sample of the Azerbaijani national anthem on our page Azərbaycan marşı.  --Lambiam 06:51, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was procedural close. This talk page should have been moved along with the article back in April. I'm tagging the redirect with {{db-move}}. --BDD (talk) 21:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

İstiklâl Marşı → İstiklal Marşı – The circumflex accent is no longer used to show palatalization of "l" in Turkish. According to the spelling dictionary here by the Turkish Language Association, it is written without the circumflex. amateur (talk) 11:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

• Questions - Amateur55, am trying to understand the page history. You did a move already on 27 April 2012 and then 15:11, 29 September 2012‎ Aguzer (talk | contribs)‎ . . (18,161 bytes) (+18,130)‎ . . (İstiklal is wrong. İstiklâl is trust.) (undo) reverted it by cut and paste, but left the Talk page? Is that about right. Anyway, can we have some evidence for the spelling change please. tr.wp is still at old spelling and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Turkey doesn't have any discussion. Thanks In ictu oculi (talk) 14:32, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
  • The reason why the Turkish Wikipedia is at the old spelling is because the people there don't recognize the official TDK spelling and use their own spelling rules instead. This page here clarifies the functions of circumflex in Turkish: It is used for showing long vowels where they are phonemic (1), it is used after k and g to show they are palatalized (2), it is used to show the Arabic nisba suffix in loanwords (3). It is no longer used to show palatalization of l, and as the first link shows, the official spelling is İstiklal Marşı. amateur (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly. See TDK guide in Turkish p.7. However altough İstiklal is of Arabic origin TDK dictionary doesn't use caret for the word.[3] Thus it seems the issue is not settled yet. Still taking the dictionary as the reference the move â → a can be done. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 20:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

This is the 2000 edition. The change was made afterwards. It is no longer used for palatalized l. See the link above at the official TDK website. amateur (talk) 22:25, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Mehmet Akif Ersoy

He is not of "Uzbek" origin. He is an Albanian.

There is a heavy commentary in article for to trying to show that there is no "racism" in the anthem. But there is an effort to "show" Ersoy as a Turkish person. This doesn't fit with the "anti-racist" commentary.

Ersoy is Albanian and he has no Turkish (or Turkic if you like) heritage.--85.106.193.247 (talk) 05:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Edgar Manas and others

Edgar Manas was not only an ethnic Armenian, but an Armenian musician. I think it's pretty useful to provide some background to some of these composers. We can provide background information for Ersoy and Üngör as well. A one word character should be enough though. Étienne Dolet (talk) 08:10, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Why is it useful though? I can make sense of some reference to Ersoy's general writing style and the literary tradition he represents, maybe, because that would add value to the interpretation of the anthem's text. But why ethnicity? I don't really think it adds to the reader's understanding and if they are curious about Manas' background, we do have an article on him. --GGT (talk) 10:16, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

You know, I'd agree with you if the İstiklâl Marşı were a nursery rhyme, or if Manas was the author of Ali Babanın çiftliği or something. But this is the national anthem of Turkey, and Manas, being an Armenian and a co-author of this anthem makes it a pretty big deal for both Turks and Armenians, and I'm sure for our readership as well. Given the history between these two communities, I would find the bit about Manas' Armenian identity striking. Now, don't get me wrong, it doesn't have to be about his identity either. Manas was an Armenian musician, as in he made Armenian music. We can focus on that more than his ethnicity, which would be okay with me. Better yet, we can create a short section entitled "Composers" and elaborate this there. Or just elaborate it more in a section on its history (like in God Save the Queen). Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:33, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

I'm not feeling particularly strong on this one, but when it comes to personal opinion as you put forward, I think that this isn't really meaningful in this context. I removed the ethnicity of the flag designer from the Cypriot flag per the same rationale ([4]) but there it can be argued to at least demonstrate that there was a level of support for the nascent state in Turkish Cypriot society, and hence some "notability". Here? Anti-Armenian sentiment was still rampant. Sure, I totally understand your point, it is striking, but I don't think it's necessarily a big deal. Furthermore, I'm still not convinced that it adds anything to the reader's understanding of the anthem, which is what we are aiming - we don't write articles for the sake of being "striking" or "interesting" (and this holds true for the Cypriot flag). But against the argument that "Manas was an Armenian musician, as in he made Armenian music", I have nothing to say. If this has implications regarding the musical composition of the anthem and possible inspirations of Manas etc., I do agree it is significant and am all for further expansion, not only leaving the detail on his background there. --GGT (talk) 22:42, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 6 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: pages moved. (non-admin closure) ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 12:52, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

---

• İstiklâl Marşı → İstiklal Marşı
• Elazığ → Elâzığ
• Ladik → Lâdik
• Lapseki → Lâpseki
• İslahiye → İslâhiye

– Current Turkish orthographical rules state that the circumflex accent is used to indicate a clear L in names of places and people only. Source (in Turkish): Düzeltme İşareti - Turkish Language Association – amateur (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. ʍaɦʋɛօtʍ (talk) 16:10, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose per nominator's source: Düzeltme İşareti - Turkish Language Association. While the caveat about the clear L mentioned in the nomination is there, this rule is not applied to names derived from Arabic or Persian. Note that Elâzığ and Lâdik are even listed as examples on that page. Note also that Turkish Wikipedia uses these spellings (e.g. tr:İstiklâl Marşı and tr:Elâzığ). —  AjaxSmack  02:21, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
  • I don't see how the source contradicts the move. Elâzığ and Lâdik are place names, so they are correctly written with the circumflex, and the pages should be moved to those spellings. İstiklal Marşı is neither a personal name, nor a place, so the circumflex shouldn't be used. Besides, the index at the website itself lists 'İstiklal Marşı' without the accent. The Turkish Wikipedia might not use TDK as a source, that doesn't mean the English Wikipedia necessarily shouldn't. – amateur (talk) 09:42, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
    • ​Thanks for making me feel really stoopid. I stared at your nomination for five minutes and still thought it read "Elâzığ → Elazığ". (Can I have your user name?) Support the latter four moves per nom. —  AjaxSmack  01:56, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

      @AjaxSmack: I take it that means you still oppose the first move. Do you have a reason, bearing in mind the nominator's comments on this above? Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:48, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

I neither oppose nor support the first move. —  AjaxSmack  02:51, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support - the proposer is right. Both the TDK and Dil Derneği list "İstiklal" as the correct spelling. The comment above seems to be based on a misunderstanding. Turkish Wikipedia is far from perfect and I will likely raise this on the talk page there soon (the nominator seems to have raised it there in 2012, but received no response). --GGT (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Translation - "ulusun" and other bad translations

Ulusun is from the root "ulu" which means mighty/great. It is not the verb "ulumak" which means howl. The verb conjugated as "ulusun" would mean "let it howl" which believe me it sounds as weird in Turkish as it does in English. I have a gut feeling this is a cheap attempt by a nationalist trying to insert Turkic elements into the anthem like the wolf. The most obvious translation is "You are mighty/great, don't be afraid / don't fear" which makes a lot more sense that "Let it howl, don't be afraid". Let WHAT howl? It makes no sense. If we are considering every possible meaning of the word "ulusun" we can also consider ulus-un which would make the sentence "Your nation/people, don't be afraid" which despite still being much less likely than "you are mighty/great" translation, still makes more sense than "Let it howl".

Is it okay to just add personal translations to this page without any source? Maybe we can find an official translation somewhere. Until then I'm changing it to "You are mighty".

Edit: There are many parts of the translation that aren't perfect. Here are a few other examples:

• Fear not; For the crimson banner that proudly ripples in this glorious dawn, shall not fade - original doesn't say "proudly"
• Before the last fiery hearth that is ablaze within my homeland is extinguished. - ocak means stove/furnace/fireplace, did you mean "fiery heart" to sound poetic, or did you just mean "hearth" which means "the floor of a fireplace"? Either ways "fiery hearth" is wrong.
• For that is the star of my people, and it will forever shine - original doesn't say "forever"
• It is mine; and solely belongs to my valiant nation. - original doesn't say "valiant"
• I'll tear apart mountains, exceed the Expanses6 and still gush out! - "still" is extra here
• You are mighty8 , do not be afraid! And think: how can this fiery faith ever be extinguished, - "And think:" is extra here
• Render your chest as armour and your body as bulwark! - This is a bad translation, but I don't know how to improve it. "Siper et" means to "guard with / cover with" in a sense. "Siper" has many meanings like trench in war, shield, bulwark, etc. It says "Use you body as a shield" or "guard with you body". "Chest as armour" part is not in the orginal.
• For soon shall come the joyous days of divine promise; - original doesn't say joyous
• And think about the shroudless10 thousands who lie so nobly beneath you. - original doesn't say "so nobly"
• You're the glorious son of a martyr - take shame, grieve not your ancestors! - original doesn't say "glorious" and doesn't say "take shame". It says "You're the son of a martyr, it's a pity/shame/sin (hard to translate yazıktır) ,grieve not your ancestors". It's a hard to translate sentence.
• No heathen's hand should ever touch the bosom of my sacred Temples. - sacred is extra here, but translating "mabed" as "sacred temple" is fine I guess.
• These adhans and their testimonies are the foundations of my religion, - Should be These adhans WHOSE testimonies / testimonies OF WHICH ...""
• And may their noble sound prevail thunderously across my eternal homeland. - After the fix above, it should be "shall prevail thunderously across my eternal homeland". Also there is a comma between "Ebedi" and "yurdumun" which makes me think it is not the adjective of "yurdumun". It might actually be used like the adverb "ebediyen" meaning "forever/eternally".
• For only then, shall my fatigued tombstone, if there is one, prostrate11 a thousand times in ecstasy, - very cool and poetic but the original says "then my (tomb)stone, if there is one, shall prostate a thousand times in ecstasy". Also the next two lines don't need "And" at the beginning.
• Perhaps only then, shall I peacefully ascend and at long last reach the heavens. - original doesn't say "at long last"
• So ripple and wave like the bright dawning sky, oh thou glorious crescent, - Why do you have "So" in the beginning? "like the bright dawning sky" is a bit extra but it's fine to translate "şafaklar" that way I guess.
• So that our every last drop of blood may finally be blessed and worthy! Again, why do you start with "So that"? "dökülen kanlarımın" is singular first person, not plural. The translation should be "May all of my spilled blood (every last drop of blood is a good translation actually) be worthy/blessed/halal". Helal olsun is hard to translate. When you gain something from someone, perhaps unfairly, you say "hakkını helal et" which means roughly "make what's your right halal/allowed (as opposed to haram) for me", it is used similarly here. He says he would have no regrets about the blood he gave, he would make it halal for everyone.
• For freedom is the absolute right of my ever-free flag; - "absolute" is extra. Why do you start with "For"? It doesn't say "çünkü hakkıdır ...". It is a new sentence, it isn't continuing from the last sentence.
• For independence is the absolute right of my God-worshipping5 nation! - Like the above, shouldn't start with "For" and "absolute" is extra.
• Finally, "göğüs" is translated as "bosom" in multiple instances, I think it should be "chest" instead.

Homorebelus (talk) 11:23, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Formatting of poem

The formatting of the poem is now a mess, especially the Ottoman part. It was better a few weeks ago, when although the table was wide, the lines weren't split into two. Can it be reverted to that earlier form? To make more room, the sound file can be put centrally, not on the side. Kanjuzi (talk) 17:43, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Phonetic transcription

The Phonetic Transcription (though the editor has obviously gone into a lot of time and trouble over it) doesn't seem to me to be useful. It is far easier to read the Turkish writing. I suggest this section be deleted. Kanjuzi (talk) 05:25, 3 September 2021 (UTC)