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Archive 1Archive 2

This page is an archive of discussions from Portal talk:Law. Please do not edit the material contained herein.

Opening argument

This looks like it could become a very active portal. I think we should get a few thinks decided though, mainly how often should the Featured Article and Featured Picture be changed, and how should we decide. -GregAsche (talk) 02:08, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I suggest that these things be changed weekly, and by a nomination-and-accession process on this page. I think it would also be neat to have a "featured case" - there are now hundreds of cases posted on Wikipedia, and more coming all the time. Cheers! -- BD2412 talk 02:16, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, seeing how as we have had the same featured article and picture since this was created (June), I think it's time for a change. I also agree with a featured case section, that's a good idea. Does anyone have any nominations for new featured articles, cases, or pictures? -GregAsche (talk) 02:43, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
For a case to start with, I'd definitely have to say Marbury v. Madison, the grand-daddy of U.S. Con Law. For articles and images, I'd have to think about it... images would be hard, but I like this one:

That may be too much of a focus on the U.S., tho... maybe for another time. How about this picture of a courthouse in Burma:

File:Yangonhighcourts.jpg

-- BD2412 talk 03:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Marbury v. Madison is good for a case, and I like the Burmese courthouse picture. How is Freedom of contract for the FA? And I was thinking, there is Wikipedia:WikiProject_Law, but what if we had a collaboration of the week? or am I getting too far ahead of myself here? -GregAsche (talk) 04:15, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Not at all - I would hope that editors who are active in Wikipedia:WikiProject_Law (as I am) will be equally active with this Portal. We never got a collaboration of the week off the ground, in part because there are sooo many law articles that need sooo much work, but I think it's a good idea, and something that should be done with a single voice between these projects. -- BD2412 talk 04:27, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, to get it done, we would need more people active, even between this and the wikiproject, there arne't many people active (you and me are the only editors to both the portal and project for the past couple weeks) if we want to get a collaboration going. I'm sure there are more people out there interested in law that would be willing to help. -GregAsche (talk) 05:12, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I'll work on it! :-) -- BD2412 talk 05:17, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm already way overcommitted, and I may not be knowledgeable enough to write about some topics, but I'll do my best to chip in when I can. Ambi 07:51, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Nice to see you here Ambi. And pending any objections, I think we should add our new featured article, case, and picture in 24 hours. -GregAsche (talk) 18:34, 18 September 2005 (UTC)
Complete agreement here. -- BD2412 talk 18:46, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The page is looking good! -- BD2412 talk 20:16, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Yep, I added the new Featured Case section, plus the new featured article and picture (albeit a bit belated). Hopefully we can get some more people to help here too, I got Ambi by going through law-related articles and checking for major contributors, which I'm going to continue doing. -GregAsche (talk) 20:51, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to nominate the Free Church case - it needs a little work in terms of format and citation, but it's a fascinating Scottish decision in which a church with lots of holdings changed its doctrine, and a splinter group sued for the church's property because of this. The splinter group lost at trial, won on appeal, and were finally reversed by Parliament. -- BD2412 talk 22:27, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

  • By the way, when and how often are we going to switch out old for new? -- BD2412 talk 22:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Given the activity here, I think every two weeks is good. And that case looks great for the next featured case. Sorry it took me so long to respond here, your last edit must have slipped through my watchlist. -Greg Asche (talk) 22:59, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
      • Sounds like a good plan. I suggest that we can use the above constitution-signing picture as well. Do you have anything in mind for a featured article? -- BD2412 talk 01:42, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
        • The constitution signing picture if fine, and I don't have anything in mind for a FA yet. Maybe someone else will become active here an nominate one, but if they don't, we can dig something up. If the once per two weeks idea or anything else I propose doesn't sound that great, feel free to give your opinion, I don't want to control this process. -Greg Asche (talk) 01:53, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
          • I think the process will be controlled by the consensus of the three of us who are active in it, at the moment - unless more people get involved, which would be a good thing, of course. I hereby suggest (drumroll...) that we make 3:00 PM on Sunday the official time for the changing of the featured materials. -- BD2412 talk 13:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I somewhat arbitratily decided to add a featured biography, and equally arbitratily picked Johnnie Cochran to start the series off - feel free to remove it if you think it's inappropriate. Cheers! -- BD2412 talk 17:58, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

For next week's featured case, I offer K. M. Nanavati vs. State of Maharashtra - a shocking reversal of fortune from a murder trial in India!  BD2412 talk 03:22, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks good (and it's interesting too). For a featured bio, maybe William Rehnquist? and for a featured article, I think Habeas corpus would be good. I was thinking about Precedent for the FA, but it's a bit short. I have no idea what to do for the featured picture... -Greg Asche (talk) 04:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
Habeas corpus sounds great. As for the bio, I'd like to try to keep an international flavor - of course, Rehnquist is iconic, so I can't object to that ;-) - but for the next one after that, I suggest we track down a jurist from Latin America (we've had nothing from there). We are rather short on picture options. Maybe an electric chair or a hanging to spice things up? After all, it looks like we're posting a death penalty case!  BD2412 talk 04:23, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I'd love to have something from outside the U.S., but I have little knowledge of internationl lawyers and jurists. If you have a bio in mind that you would like to nominate in the place of Rehnquist, I'm all ears. And the hanging picture sounds like a good idea, it is pretty dull here. -Greg Asche (talk) 04:31, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I'll look for pics and bios first thing tomorrow morning. I found this: Image:Firingsquad.WWI.staged.jpg, but it's a bit too war-time to fit on a law page, I think. But it did make me think of the Nuremburg trials, which I think is a future featured case candidate.  BD2412 talk 04:41, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
If the objective of the portal is to educate legal ignoramuses like me, I'd believe that the featured articles should be Habeas Corpus, Mandamus etc. apart from personal laws such as those related to marriage and divorce. I'd definitely think that a COTW is in order. Thanks, --Gurubrahma 06:50, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps we should have more dynamic timing for rotating in new features. I was thinking about this last night - we now have four featured items, with an article, case, bio, and image. We could rotate one out each week, so every week we have one new thing on the portal (of course, the news will update every few days, whenever law news breaks). How about we rotate in a new featured article this week, a new bio next week, case the following week (as I just posted the case last night anyway) and image the week after that? Or is that too slow? maybe two items per week?  BD2412 talk 14:52, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

One per week seems fine, good idea BD. I'll change the FA now. -Greg Asche (talk) 16:04, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
After some searching of the wiki (and the soul), I'd like to propose Hugo Grotius for our next featured bio - Dutch, 15th century, and a founder of many ideas upon which modern international law is based.  BD2412 talk 20:30, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Grotius is now da man - Rehnquist next, then I'm thinking Mireille Roccatti Velásquez, a Mexican attorney who headed the investigation of a slate of murders in Chihuahua. Also, next week we can rotate in K. M. Nanavati vs. State of Maharashtra as our featured case. BD2412 T 04:20, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Sounds good. How do you dig up all these good foreign law articles? -Greg Asche (talk) 04:28, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

It's about time to rotate in a new image - afraid I haven't come up with one yet. :-0 BD2412 T 05:22, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Image:Justice12.jpg

The image that's being used on the law portal (& various templates) (Image:Justice12.jpg) doesnt have any source or copyright information. The uploader hasnt responded to requests for some, and so the image is now at a state where it can be speedily deleted, I understand User:BD2412 is looking at gradually replacing it everywhere. I'm just putting this here so everyone knows. Cheers... Agnte 23:11, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

More rotation...

A bit late, but I've changed out the Constitution-signing pic with one of a Zimbabwe Republic Police badge. Next week: new featured article. Any thoughts? BD2412 T 20:13, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Just realized that the featured case had been up a lot longer than the featured pic, so I changed that out instead - brought in Commonwealth v Tasmania, a fantastic Australian conservation case. Pic goes out on Christmas, then. bd2412 T 16:29, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

No complaints here. Thanks for remembering to change that :). -Greg Asche (talk) 00:25, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Rotation

As a time-saving measure, may I recommend the format used at P:UK (based on the format used for WP:TFA) where the rotating entries are set up in subpages and scheduled for several months in advance rather than being changed ad hoc by hand. The referencing makes use of the CURRENTMONTHNAME (November) and CURRENTYEAR (2024)variables, and subpages like Portal:United Kingdom/Featured/December 2005.

If you want more frequent updates, Portal:Astronomy has weekly and monthly changes for various sections. -- ALoan (Talk) 00:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Actually when I started it off at P:UK I only did each month at a time: we have only just started doing them a couple of months in advance. -- Francs2000 00:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Oh, right - my mistake :) As it happens, Astronomy have done pictures for the whole of 2006, and articles to March. FWIW, I can't see any reason why this Portal (and the UK) should not set up the schedule, say, 6 months in advance: the number of new Featured articles and Featured pictures in the UK and Law areas are not immense. The only area where a bit of thought is necessary (in the UK, at least) it DYK, where it is nice to feature relatively new articles. -- ALoan (Talk) 01:25, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
We'll start on this plan in January - but we have four features and rotate in one per week. I'm not sure this will work quite the same. bd2412 T 01:46, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, here's what we'll do - keep the featured article and bio on a monthly schedule, put the featured image and case on a weekly and duplicate four weeks at a stretch. bd2412 T 01:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Huh? I'm a bit confused by your last sentence. ALoan's idea seems good, it would be nice to plan our featureds out at once and be able to just let them go for a while. -Greg Asche (talk) 03:02, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Here's the problem: suppose we set the articles by month. On January 1, the {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} code in the template turns over all four articles, and they all stay that way until February 1, when the next set of articles automatically rotates in. But the page is less dynamic that way - everything is the same for a month, then everything turns over at once. But I like a dynamic page, where one feature rotates out on January 1, another on January 7, another on January 15, and the last on the 22d. This can not be accomplished with the {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} code, which only knows whole months from the 1st to the 30th or 31st. So, we trick the system by doing individual weeks, but we put the same feature in for four consecutive weeks (say, beginning January 15 and ending February 11). That way, something changes every week - but we set it all in motion far in advance. bd2412 T 03:14, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Ah, I see what you're saying. Good idea. I'll get a list of possible features going and run it through here in a bit. -Greg Asche (talk) 03:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
As I said, the Astronomy portal does it weekly, using the CURRENTWEEK variable. To avoid unnecessary duplication, you could redirect one week to another, to get things changing out of step, IYSWIM. -- ALoan (Talk) 03:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
That would save a bit of server space, too. bd2412 T 03:53, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm implementing the above recommended rotation mechanism - I'll post when it's done and explain just how to add content to it when I'm sure I've got the redirects running right! Cheers! bd2412 T 21:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's what I dug up for possible featureds.
Cases:

Hill v. Church of Scientology of Toronto
Abington School District v. Schempp
Dietrich v The Queen
Lawrence v. Texas

Articles:
Paragraph 175
Stare decisis
Jury nullification
Power of attorney
Twelve Tables

Let me know what you think about those. I'll keep looking for bios and pics, but they seem alot harder to find... -Greg Asche (talk) 03:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Nice. German Federal Constitutional Court abortion decision could be good if it was written up a bit. bd2412 T 04:27, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, the actual Featured articles and Featured pictures are in WP:FA and WP:FP, but you may be happy with some entries in the WP:FAC or WP:FPC archives (out of date Index and its subpages) which are good but not good enough to satisfy everyone. For example, Nix v. Hedden (although I can't spot many others in the archive). -- ALoan (Talk) 04:31, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I know, I didn't mean to imply that all of those were WP featured articles, just that they could be for the law portal (although a couple are, I farmed from WP:FA.) What I meant was, there is no real way of categorizing law related bios and pictures, thus making them harder to find. -Greg Asche (talk) 04:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
ALoan brings up a very good point, tho - we should have more law-related articles in WP:FA, and perhaps we could use the Law Portal as a kind of device to spur improvement on articles so they can be vetted for FA status. bd2412 T 04:47, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I would certainly support this. Not to be pessimistic or anything, but I dunno how much work we could do with just the three of us (although BD2412, you do do a ton here.).I'm certainly willing to try though. Maybe we could have a collaboration section on the main portal page and we could work with WikiProject law to see what we can do, huh? -Greg Asche (talk) 04:52, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Next bio, Hugh Kennedy (judge)

I've tabbed Hugh Kennedy (judge) for our next bio - the article has lots of info, but needs improvement! bd2412 T 01:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry if this has already been clarified before, but I just wanted to know if the bio should be about a legal luminary or if it can be that of a criminal as well. I am interested in articles such as Lakireddy Bali Reddy, that deal with people who are convicted in a country that is not of their origin. --Gurubrahma 12:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
I think both are acceptable. Hugh Kennedy seems good, I'll try to expand the lead and find a picture for him. -Greg Asche (talk) 20:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Some of the links lead to pics (and substantial bio info) - judging by the asserted topics, they should be old enough to be in the public domain. bd2412 T 21:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
With respect to articles on criminals, I'd rather focus on lawmakers and interpreters - I can see an Ernesto Miranda or Clarence Earl Gideon getting the nod, based on the importance of their cases; or even an Al Capone - but I think those should be the exception, not the rule. bd2412 T 03:56, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


Redirects done, substance needed

All the weekly redirects are done, so each week one new topic will automatically rotate in - but now we need to fill in those topics! Here are the links:

Portal:Law/Case/Week 42 2006, Portal:Law/Statute/Week 42 2006Portal:Law/Biography/Week 43 2006, Portal:Law/Picture/Week 45 2006, Portal:Law/Case/Week 46 2006, Portal:Law/Biography/Week 47 2006, Portal:Law/Article/Week 48 2006, Portal:Law/Statute/Week 48 2006Portal:Law/Picture/Week 49 2006, Portal:Law/Case/Week 50 2006, Portal:Law/Biography/Week 51 2006, Portal:Law/Article/Week 52 2006

Setup of rotation system

How exactly are we supposed to set these up? Use the same article for 4 weeks in a row? If so, I'll start adding in the ones I listed above unless there are any objections. -Greg Asche (talk) 03:52, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Here's how it works - you'll note that each week has a different topic, starting over every fourth week. The necessary redirects are already done (but not shown, you can see them here) for the posts to last four weeks. All we need to do is add appropriate content to each of the 45 remaining links above. bd2412 T 04:23, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Inspired by the above discussion, I've tabbed Ernesto Miranda (of Miranda warning fame) for the week 7 bio. I think I'm going to look for a seal for the week 9 pic. bd2412 T 23:56, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
Week 9 pic is done - Image:Sealtaglarge.jpg. bd2412 T 18:11, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Tabbed Michelle Bachelet for week 11 bio - that will be shortly after she takes office as President of Chile. bd2412 T 19:18, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Selected case candidate

Came across this while updating DYK. The donkey kong bit sounds interesting and hence Universal City Studios, Inc. v. Nintendo Co., Ltd. may be a good candidate for selected case. --Gurubrahma 06:26, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Another one I came across in DYK updation - this is even more fun, imo - Stambovsky v. Ackley --Gurubrahma 18:12, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I just added a phat image for the week 17 picture. Any suggestions for the week 15 bio? bd2412 T 03:26, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Initial definition

"Law is the formal regime that orders human activities and relations through systematic application of the force of politically organized society."
Jesus Christ! Couldn't we get a less PoV and more up-to-date definition? This looks like John Austin speaking! Velho 03:52, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been a bit skeptical about that definition too. I certain any legal dictionary will have a defintion better than that. As well, would anyone be averse to changing the example in the second paragraph to something country-neutral? I think the point can still be illustrated without reference to any particular nation. --PullUpYourSocks 14:21, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

please see discussion in law page also; it's quite difficult to start the page with a definition and if people want one, that's what analytic jurisprudence is about, where everyone has a big ol' fight about what the definition is! Wikidea 00:09, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Selected bios

I've tapped two great English Jurists for bios - Edward Coke for week 15, and William Blackstone for week 27 (so we don't have two back to back). Cheers! bd2412 T 01:33, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Per the above suggestions, I've tabbed Power of attorney and Twelve Tables for week 16 and 20 article rotations. More needed! bd2412 T 14:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Note: I've put Concurrent estate for the week 24 rotation. bd2412 T 14:55, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

BD - How about Jeremy Bentham for a future selected bio? - Jersyko·talk 01:59, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I like Adams v Cape Industries plc for a selected case - any thoughts? bd2412 T 21:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

To Do Suggestion: Law Templates

I have been actively trying to add a law template to every law page I come across. I think the template can use a lot of improvement, and so I would really like people to help with it. Chart123 02:02, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Category Expansion

New categories should be added. Additions should include the following:

  • Constitutional Law
  • Legal Theory

Chart123 03:16, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


My addition of constitutional law and legal theory pages in the "categories" section were deleted. The comment on the deletion was that these are categories and not pages.
I understand that, and almost refrained from editing. However, some of the International law pages are pages, and not categories, and so I figured my additions would be acceptable. Is there then a reason for the double standard?
That minor issue aside, why aren't there category pages for legal theory and constitutional law? These are pretty broad issues in the law and should be added. And it's unclear to me why a stand-in for these cannot be added. The portal page seems incomplete without these additions. Chart123 16:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
Interesting points - if there are articles listed in that section, they should be removed; and if there is no Category:Constitutional law or Category:Legal theory, these should be created! Cheers! bd2412 T 16:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
One thing to keep in mind is how "legal theory" is distinguished from "philosophy of law". In my mind their is a lot of overlap and I'm not entirely sure how they are different. --PullUpYourSocks 17:31, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there a Category:Philosophy of law? bd2412 T 19:46, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions

BD et al - ok, how about (1) Mens rea for selected article, (2) Lawrence v. Texas for a selected case, (3) Judith Sheindlin for selected bio, and (4) this picture of the Supreme Court of Victoria for selected picture? - Jersyko·talk 13:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

More suggestions: Lawrence Lessig, Copyright Act of 1976, Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, Hudson v. Michigan, & Law of Singapore (though perhaps a bit of POV should be excised first). · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 16:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

All good... working 'em in. bd2412 T 19:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Someone should put together an article on riding circuit. Aboutmovies 18:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Criminal justice

Just noting that a Portal:Criminal justice exists, so we should probably coordinate with that one. bd2412 T 22:35, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

New category of stuff...

I've re-arranged the categories a bit, and added a new one - selected statute, starting with the First Amendment to the United States Constitution (not exactly a "statute", but within the realm of reason). bd2412 T 15:43, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Recent changes

I just changed the portal colour to match the template(although it could've gone the other way-I'm not really predisposed to either purple or green!). I hope this is okay, but perhaps future changes could do the same? Also, please excuse the messing about with the selected articles, etc, where I wasn't quite sure how it worked. I updated the page in the archive with a short explanation, and introduced the links down the bottom so people coming to the page will understand. Please alter if what I wrote there was incorrect.Wikidea 03:39, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Change in category assignment

I would like to propose that the Bible article be revised and split between Law category and that of the Religion it is in now.

My argument is rather simple.

For the original users of the Hebrew Bible known as Torah in English, the text represents, as the introductory page on law category suggests, a primary source of legal and judiciary administration of their society, and continues to be practiced as such today. The fact that the individual is asked to believe that the law eminates from God or not does not reduce its significance to the understanding and practice of law. Nor is this belief required in the practice of law which is dependent on evidence and argument.

On the other hand the Christian use of the Hebrew Bible text is not used for its legal application, but its primarily moral values. The Christian church had never fully implimented the legal mechanisms and methods inherrent in the Torah, and has been suplemented and replaced in application throughout the World. The moral part of the text requires belief rather then logical argument or evidence from the practitioner, and therefore does belong in the religion category.--Mrg3105 03:39, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I suppose it's certainly an important part of the History of Law, or the Law of Israel? Maybe you could start adding the information you know to a new section on those pages? That could be really useful. Wikidea 08:26, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

New article

Hello all, I created a new article United States v. Curtiss-Wright. It still needs improvement and more of what the case law says.Charleenmerced Talk 15:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

Merged and redirected to existing United States v. Curtiss-Wright Export Corp.. Cheers! bd2412 T 15:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Demographic estimates of the German exodus from Eastern Europe

The article is about demography. You may write an article about legal aspects of anything, but it woul dbe a new article. If this article is about law, almost any historical article is about law. Is this your idea of this portal? Xx236 13:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

High court Judges

I noticed accidentally that although there is a list of UK High court Judges, there are individual articles for only a very few. Dothe people here consider that they are not notable? DGG 23:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

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