Draft talk:Monte Zovetto

Autumn 2024 Educational Project Page

This page is part of an Educational Project by students of LIUC, Italy, with a course page at: [1]https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/LIUC_-_Universit%C3%A0_Cattaneo/Digital_Technology_(October_-_December,_2024) . The users of the group are new to the Wikipedia platform, have completed mandatory Training for Students, and are learning to edit following Wikipedia rules. They are open to any advice on improvements of the page in conformity to Wikipedia requirements and guidelines, and any help useful for the enhancement of the page will be gladly accepted. The student Usernames are:

• LIUCsmarties
• LIUCemmi05
• Liuclucy008
• Liucedoardo08
• Liucmarti08
• Ascanio10
• bodinsky

Issues or questions can be referred direct to the users or to their tutor @Limelightangel Limelightangel (talk) 14:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Suggestions

@LIUCsmarties, LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

I would add a geology section to the page.

Liucmarti08 (talk) 16:46, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a great idea, I could add one for the climate too if it's useful LIUCsmarties (talk) 16:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

The See Also section needs to be fixedLiucmarti08 (talk) 16:51, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Done

LIUCsmarties (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Some images should be added in the History and in the Nature sectionLiuclucy008 (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Done LIUCemmi05 (talk) 11:29, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

References are missing in the Brigata Liguria Monument section LIUCsmarties (talk) 09:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

done Liucedoardo08 (talk) 16:35, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

@Bodinsky: I think we should remove the part about Rifugio Kubelek in the introduction because it could be promotional content. I have checked other Wiki pages and I think it is not the right place LIUCsmarties (talk) 10:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, I will remove it. Bodinsky (talk) 16:33, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

the Sub-heading World War I should be separate from the History section? given its vast subject matter and having also the sub-section on the trenches it might make sense to separate the vast argument of WWI from the History heading and create a separate heading just on the War. Or is it better to leave it where is it now under the history heading?Liuclucy008 (talk) 09:03, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, I think it should remain under the History section since it's part of it. Maybe, since it's important, we could make a bigger sub-heading to highlight it LIUCsmarties (talk) 16:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree, I think it should remain a part of the History section. Bodinsky (talk) 14:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

If you add images please make sure to centre them properly and check in case you move other images already present. Bodinsky (talk) 11:02, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Is the sub-heading "educational farms" promotional? LIUCemmi05

If you added the part about "Educational Farms" please remove it since it is promotional and it is not related to Monte Zovetto, thank you. Bodinsky (talk) 11:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Plese add reference in the Brigata Liguria monument section since there is only one.Bodinsky (talk) 15:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I found an image that could be a good example of how the common use of lands I mentioned in the History section works. It is a sign placed in a forest in Roana. Do you think I should add it since Monte Zovetto is part of Roana Municipality or is it better to not put it there since it is not directly taken on Monte Zovetto? LIUCsmarties (talk) 11:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it depends. It would be better to include only the images taken on Monte Zovetto, but in my opinion, if the one you're referring to is related to essential information about the mountain and is useful for understanding the concept, it could work. Maybe specifying in the caption that the image was taken near Monte Zovetto would be enough to make it acceptable. Liucmarti08 (talk) 23:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I would remove the part on Tenuta Guida since it may be considered promotional and it is not particularly relevant since it is relative to Lison di Portogruaro. LIUCsmarties (talk) 19:42, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree Liucedoardo08 (talk) 10:41, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

To-do list to be completed before this Friday @LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

from feedback 13/11

• make sure there are eng translations for every term
• complete references & fix their issues in from feedback 13/11 and 26/11
• remove content not relevant for the topic

from feedback 26/11

• make tourism and walking section less of a travel guide
• fix rifugio kubelek and malga zovetto focusing on historic relevance not menus
• add other external links
• make flora & fauna less generic
• check grammar, capitalization and phrases that can be written better or cut (examples in the feedback)

LIUCsmarties (talk) 10:10, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I will correct the grammar, phrases structure and I will also check the tourism and walking section Liucmarti08 (talk) 10:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Changed the tourism paragraph and removed the part about the Tenuta Guida which looked too promotional and not really relevant about Monte Zovetto Liucedoardo08 (talk) 10:44, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

did the same with the walking section Liucedoardo08 (talk) 10:53, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Added some English translations for Italian terms. LIUCsmarties (talk) 12:22, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

checking grammar error and fix references issues Liuclucy008 (talk) 10:29, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Guys, remember the see alsos cannot include links we already put in the previous sections. I’ll remove those again LIUCsmarties (talk) 10:59, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Feedback 1/11/24

@LIUCsmarties, LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

• text has been inserted above the draft banner tag. This tag needs to be moved to the top of the page: done @LIUCemmi05:
• remove the inappropriate text 'Article draft' 'History paragraph': done @LIUCemmi05:
• referencing:
  • the single reference is incorrect, not linked to any content and to an unacceptable source. Do not link from text to external websites. See Wikipedia:Linking_dos_and_don'ts and Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners
  • the lead section has no sources
• images and referencing: images are not referenced
• images: any image needs a caption and page position relevant to both the topic and the page section where it is located
• note and comply with the guidelines and good practice on lead (introductory) sections and look at good practice other pages. They do not have an 'Introduction'. See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. Use this to develop this section. See also Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Lead_section.
• Needs an Infobox: find a relevant Infobox template from Wikipedia:List of infoboxes and look at Template:Infobox mountain, and use this templare correctly, or find a similar page with a relevant Infobox, and use this. Note that these are templates with rules on how they are used and for acceptable field content/format
• note the text and reference 2 related to WW1:
  • it uses the correct reference format for a book
  • it uses an authorative reference
  • it embeds links out to relevant existing page for this content
  • it uses markup to create a Wikipedia:piped link to pages on 157th Infantry Regiment "Liguria", 36th Infantry Division "Forlì" and 64th Infantry Division "Catanzaro", without showing these page titles in the displayed linked text. See: Wikipedia:Piped_link
• the link out from the text Pre-Alps is incorrect - it links to the page on Aps.
• non-English terms need an English translation. See the section on Non-English terms in Wikipedia:Manual of Style
• duplicate links out: See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking

Limelightangel (talk) 16:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback 06/11/24

@LIUCsmarties, LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

• Page structure: structure the page in a way that conforms to the structure of Wikipedia pages dealing with the same topics.
  • Then also pay attention to missing elements on the page such as the map indicating the location of this place
• Do not make it a travel website: include relevant paragraphs and bibliographic references (e.g. Magnini, L., Rovera, G., De Guio, A., & Marra, A. (2018). 20 anni al fronte: indagini archeologiche della e attraverso la Grande Guerra sugli Altopiani Veneto-Trentini. Archeologia Postmedievale, 22)

Greentree97 (talk) 12:40, 06 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback 13/11/24

@LIUCsmarties, LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

• See Also's: not all these are appropriate for this section, and also duplicate links in the page. At least 3 should be removed. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#"See_also"_section for guidance.
• External links section: See Wikipedia:external links and understand what goes here as opposed to reference links
• Categories: Need adding prior to submission. See Help:categories
• Grammar: 'german-speaking'; 'coverage for the troups, '; 'surrounded by obstacloes '; 'the soldies '; 'the British cemetery it's just one out five '; 'This cemeteries, in which are'; ' takes care and guarantees conservation. '; 'ecalls at the heroic actions '; etc.
• style:
  • avoid subjective, redunant and biased language. See section on Vocabulary in Wikipedia:Manual of Style and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch e.g. 'the Cimbrian language appeared on the mount[9].'; 'more specifically'; 'it also hosts '; 'Initially, '; 'gradually establishing themselves.'; 'this heroic brigade '; etc.
  • consistently provide English translations and a consistent format for non-English terms e.g. '"Edicola alla Brigata Liguria "; etc.
  • the section on Rifugio Kubelek needs rewriting to remove promotional content and correct grammar, over-linking and duplicate links
• Images:
  • image captions can be improved to make page relevance clear e.g. 'Monument on Monte Zovretto dedicated to Brigata Liguria', etc.
  • image proximity to relevant adjacent text: Monument dedicated to Brigata Liguria can be left justified to be in Monuments section
  • non-English terms need a translation e.g. caption 'Italian-Austrian "degli abeti mozzi" cemetery, which also needs better grammar and the location including
  • the image 'British trenches and fortifications in the First World War, in Cesuna di Roana. Today part of the Great War Ecomuseum in the Vicenza Pre-Alps' is better located in the lower sub-section on trenches, perhaps with the last 2 sentences of the the world war 1 text and the bit about the Ecomuseum (instead of this in the long caption). 'Today' needs removing from the image caption.
• note and comply with the guidelines and good practice on lead (introductory) sections and look at good practice other pages. They do not have an 'Introduction'. See: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. Use this to develop this section. See also Wikipedia:Writing_better_articles#Lead_section. The text here on etymology is not appropriate, but this could go at the start of the History section.
• structure:
  • needs a section on Geography/Location, defining and describing the specific location and relationship to surroundings. Some of the lead section text can be used and developed here
  • a section on Geology may be relevant
  • Nature should come after History, and have a better Section heading
  • is Trekking part of Tourism, or a seperate section? Perhaps a Section on Tourism and Recreational Activities, with a sub-section on Trekking? And mountain biking? And is Trekking' the correct word here, or Walking Routes/Trails?
  • it is unclear how the dairy farm relates to Tourism
• Cultural references:
  • is 'Monte Zovretto in Literature' a better sub-heading then 'Literature'?
  • for the 2 works, say a bit about how Monte Zovretto features in them
• content:
  • is there any 'climbing'? where?
  • remove ' (punitive expedition was used precisely to emphasize the 'betrayal' of the former ally) '
  • the mention the roman column indicating the spot where the action of Italian brigades Forlì and Liguria took place in better in Monuments, not Trekking. This monument is located about 300 meters from Magnaboschi British War Cemetery (which is itself located in front of an Austro-Hungarian cemetery).
  • mention the existence and closure of the Monte Zovetto – Cesuna ski resort
  • is the Val Magnaboschi itinerary the same as the Remembrance Trail - Departure and Arrival – Monte Zovetto loop from Cesuna? If not, this and other trails can be developed, without touristic type content
  • the British WW1 troops left inscriptions there: [[2]]
  • the History section has a 1,000 year gap
• linking: See Help:linking, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking and Wikipedia:Linking dos and don'ts
  • do not duplicate links out. Check links have not already been used.
  • you link out once, where the linked term is first used. Check and move links that need to be used earlier in the page.
  • do not overlink e.g. white wine, red wine, rosé, beeches, hazels, willows, maples, firs, trench, dairy cattle,etc.
• numbers: there are conventions for all number formats, including metric/imperial conversions: not '900 to 1,200 meter,'. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers
• Val Magnaboschi itinerary: content here duplicates text elsewhere related to the war, has duplicate links, untranslated non-English terms, andf inappropriate style e.g. ' In the center of Cesuna follow signs for'; 'continue beyond the town'; ' visitors encounter a unique mix of'; etc.

Limelightangel (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Going to verify the links and check if they have not already been used Liuclucy008 (talk) 17:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Corrected some grammar errors I found, changed the photo captions, translated non-english words Liucedoardo08 (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Changed the title of Literature section, corrected some grammar errors, added the geography and geology section, moved the text on etymology and added information about the books along with teammates.

LIUCsmarties (talk) 14:31, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback 13/11/24

@LIUCsmarties, LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

• no External links section
• references:
  • mainly in Italian. Try to balance these with more English sources
  • be consistent in stating Italian sources
  • issues with refs. e.g. 9 (no title), ref 22 (no publisher, website name, missing author: Massimo Ascoli); ref. 23 (cite news; publication is London Gazette, etc.); ref. 26 (no title, page nos, etc.); ref. 27 (uppercase); ref.30 (grammar, missing page title, date accessed); refs 30, 32, (no date accessed; refs. 35 & 40 (unacceptable sources); etc.
• cultural references: the good content here could include the dates the books were published
• Educational farms: the first para. is irrelevant, and needs removing or moving below the 2nd paragraph with clearer relevance made to the topic. Done (talk)
• images:
  • better, cleaer captions: e.g. 'Roana (VI) - Canove district - Museum 1915-18 (former railway station)'
  • remove '(above), (below)' from caption. done
  • the images in flora and fauna need reviewing and probably removing as irrelevant, generic and not on the topic
  • irrelevant image for this page: battle of Caporetto
  • relevance: 'Two cows owned by Malga Zovetto on top of Monte Zovetto'
  • the good war images scroll in to lower sections; try to format these better so they appear with relevant text, and not flora. The Caporetto image can be removed; the others can be logically restuctured and resized to fit the relevant sections
• linking: See Help:linking, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking and Wikipedia:Linking dos and don'ts
  • overlinking, extensive in places e.g in Fauna and lead section
  • do not duplicate links
• style:
  • avoid subjective, redunant and biased language. See section on Vocabulary in Wikipedia:Manual of Style and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch e.g. 'realised thanks to'; ' it is also possible to find'; 'Popular with both tourists and locals, they offer a unique insight into the area's agricultural traditions'; 'For the return, hikers may follow'; etc.
• content:
  • Rifugio Kubelek & Malga Zovetto: this level of detail could be regarded as promotional
  • relevance: some content needs reviewing for topic relevance

Limelightangel (talk) 21:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Added the external link section and I'm going to check for any double linking. LIUCsmarties (talk) 14:57, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Crrected some issues with captions and images Liucedoardo08 (talk) 15:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback 26/11/24

@LIUCsmarties, LIUCemmi05, Liuclucy008, Liucedoardo08, Liucmarti08, Ascanio10, and Bodinsky:

• General Comments
  • Contextual Relevance: While the draft is rich in detail, some sections (e.g., Flora and Fauna) still feel generic and lack direct relevance to Monte Zovetto. Focus on unique ecological or historical aspects.
  • Duplication: The history section contains repeated references to the same events (e.g., the "Strafexpedition" and World War I). Consider merging overlapping content for clarity and conciseness.
  • Focus: Certain parts, such as "Tourism" and "Walking Routes," read like a travel guide. Ensure all sections maintain an encyclopedic tone.
• External Links

No new external links section has been added. This is a key omission; include links to authoritative websites related to Monte Zovetto (e.g., local government or historical archives).

• References
  • Balance of Sources: The imbalance of Italian and English references persists. Integrate additional English-language sources, especially for international relevance.
  • Formatting: Several citations remain incomplete or improperly formatted:
    • Ref 10: Missing details on publication type and author credentials.
    • Ref 27: Needs publisher and page numbers.
    • Ref 54: Lacks access date and formatting consistency.
  • Unreliable Sources: Refs 40 and 60 remain questionable. Replace with more credible academic or government sources.
• Images
  • Captions: New captions need editing for clarity and conciseness:
    • "Cyclamen, a typical flower that grows on Monte Zovetto" → "Cyclamen flower on Monte Zovetto."
    • "Kestrel that can be found on Monte Zovetto" → "A kestrel in the Monte Zovetto area."
  • Relevance: Some images (e.g., flora and fauna) still lack direct ties to Monte Zovetto. Ensure each image supports the main narrative.
  • Infobox Portrait: Consider including a representative image of Monte Zovetto in the infobox for visual appeal and relevance.
• Style
  • Grammar:
    • "tolalm length" should be "total length."
    • "teh trenches" should be "the trenches."
    • "resistence" should be "resistance."
  • Neutrality: New content in sections like "Malga Zovetto" and "Rifugio Kubelek" still contains promotional language. Rewrite for neutrality.
    • Example: "The farm is particularly productive thanks to the favorable conditions of the territory and fertile soil" → "The farm operates in fertile soil conditions typical of the region."
  • Conciseness: Reduce wordy descriptions, especially in Activities and Walking Routes sections.
• Specific Section Feedback
  • Geology
    • New additions about sedimentary formations are detailed but overly technical. Consider summarizing key points and focusing on their connection to Monte Zovetto.
  • History
    • The Roman and medieval sections are expanded but still overlap. Consolidate repeated references to historical figures like Berengar I and Charlemagne.
    • Avoid speculation: Phrases like "the Romans may have organized the area as ager publicus" should be clarified or omitted if unsupported by evidence.
  • Legends and Mysteries
    • The "Billar Man" legend is engaging but overly long. Summarize the narrative while retaining its cultural significance. @LIUCemmi05: done
  • Flora and Fauna
    • The section remains dense with technical details. Focus on how the area's unique ecosystem reflects its geography and climate.
    • Remove lists of plants and animals unless they are specific to Monte Zovetto (e.g., parnassius butterflies).
  • Tourism
    • The "Rifugio Kubelek" and "Malga Zovetto" sections still read like promotional content. Highlight their historical or cultural relevance instead.
    • Consider removing mentions of wine production and restaurant menus unless tied to broader regional significance.

Walking Routes

• • • The new descriptions of hiking trails are well-structured but still overly detailed. Focus on the historical and ecological significance of these paths rather than logistical information. @LIUCemmi05: done
  • War Cemeteries
    • This section is detailed and relevant but could include more context about the soldiers commemorated (e.g., their nationalities and contributions).
• Linking
  • New Issues: Some additional links are unnecessary (e.g., "marmot," "Cyclamen"). Ensure links add value and avoid linking common terms.
• New Notes
  • Formatting: Consistency across headings is still lacking. Standardize capitalization (e.g., "Magnaboschi valley-Monte Zovetto Hiking Trail" → "Magnaboschi Valley–Monte Zovetto Hiking Trail").
  • Content Length: The article remains lengthy and could benefit from trimming repetitive or tangential sections.
  • Summary: A concise summary table for major historical events (e.g., wars, Roman occupation) could help readers navigate the content more easily.

Greentree97 (talk) 14:06, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Added a summary table for the main historic events, substituted some Italian references with the Eng versions and corrected some potential promotional content in the Tourism section. LIUCsmarties (talk) 14:10, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I will fix the captions of the images Liucmarti08 (talk) 15:40, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback 1/12/24

• the section on the museum at Roana may be better moving to the existing page on Roana. It is a difficult one as the museum clearly contains artefacts from Monte Zovretto and is on the periphery of the hill. I would say that because the museum is located in Roana and already mentioned on the Roana page this content should be moved there, with a relevant link to the Monte Zovretto page.
• I have removed the table at the start of History as the table of contents menu provides this structure and navigation
• there is a lot of generic content in both the geology and history sections that relates to the wider area rather than Monte Zovretto itself
• I have made c.50 minor edits to tidy it up for the review process.

Limelightangel (talk) 09:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I will move the section about the museum to the Roana page Liucedoardo08 (talk) 09:21, 2 December 2024 (UTC)