Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting/Archive 2018

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Scouting. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

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WAGGGS recent edits

Two new editors have been making changes to membership numbers and executive titles. I would be comfortable if the changes could be sourced. Can anyone help?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:32, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Good Turn

Just realized, we don't have an article on Good Turn. Anyone?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:13, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Good idea, but we would need some good sources that say it is an important feature of Scouting throughout the world. There will be lots of sources that talk about Scouts doing Good Turns, but they will not be good enough. We do have this - "Less well-known is the Scout Slogan, 'Do a good turn daily'" in Scouting. Perhaps we should just expand that for now. --Bduke (Discussion) 10:39, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Just curious, is it used as a slogan outside of the USA?North8000 (talk) 13:03, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Certainly in the UK when I was younger, but I do not recall hearing it here in Australia. --Bduke (Discussion) 22:16, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

It's in the UK Cub Scout Law: "Cub Scouts always do their best, / think of others before themselves / and do a good turn every day". Duno what you'd put in an article though. Alansplodge (talk) 09:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

"When you get up in the morning, remember that you have to do a Good Turn for someone during the day". Scouting for Boys Camp Fire Yarn No. 2: What Scouts Do.] Alansplodge (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

list of 108 Scouts who became famous

"A list of 108 Scouts who became famous vol. 1" on Okinawa Council's blog http://bso.ti-da.net/e10283168.html.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:55, 13 February 2018 (UTC)

@Kintetsubuffalo. When I tried to follow your link, I only found the site's homepage, which is in Japanese (not my strong point). Alansplodge (talk) 11:14, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Colors of the BSA

Maybe an page?

Akin to Dodger Blue? --evrik ^(talk) 17:37, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

File:1900s Scout registration certificate small.jpg

Also, can anyone find a larger version we can read to verify the claimed registration?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:02, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

I can't read the inscription but The First Troops a factsheet published by the Archive Department at The Scout Association in March 2008 says: "Another 'first Troop' to vie for the title was the 1st Glasgow which has in its possession a registration certificate dated January 26, 1908, and was founded by Mr Robert Young" (p. 2 of 4). Alansplodge (talk) 10:20, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Me again; I also found on a secondhand bookseller's website, this image of the certificate, from Robertson's Book of Firsts: Who Did What for the First Time by Patrick Robinson. Looks to me like page 47, but it's a bit fuzzy. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Lion

Starting in the fall of 2018, Lion will join Tiger, Wolf, Bear, and Webelos as an official rank in the Cub Scout program. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/02/14/after-roaring-success-lions-will-move-from-pilot-to-full-time-part-of-cub-scouting/?utm_source=scoutingwire&utm_campaign=swvolunteer2212018v6a&utm_medium=email&utm_content= This is new since I've been gone, anyone want to tackle this?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Long time ago Lion was a rank.....after bear, before Webelos. North8000 (talk) 15:57, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

As someone involved in the Cub program right now, it might be a little early to tackle it. Lions was a pilot program that went through various stages. A couple weeks ago they decided to make it an official part of the national program. Other then the fact that they are doing it, there are still things that will be in flux until they make the change. There is still a little uncertainty about whether Packs that weren't part of the pilot are allowed to recruit Lions in the Spring or whether they have to wait until the fall. There are still uncertainties in whether the advancement format will change between pilot and official and other things like that. Some things were mentioned in that article, but until the official books, advancement, and things like that actually come out, there is uncertainty. Marauder40 (talk) 17:56, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

So Lions will precede Tigers? (confused Briton) Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Looks like it. North8000 (talk) 13:21, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct. Lions is for people in Kindergarten. Until now Cub Scouts was only for people in 1st - 5th grade.Marauder40 (talk) 13:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Where then do Tigers fit?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Tigers is for 1st graders, as it has been for a long time. Other then the fact that Tigers still requires a 1 parent to 1 kid ratio, there isn't much difference between Tigers and the rest of the ranks. Similar advancement, similar recognition, and able to do most of what every other rank except for Webelos can do. Lions is extending the program into Kindergarten. Lions = K, Tigers = 1, Wolf = 2, Bear = 3, Webelos = 4, Arrow of Light = 5 (although both Webelos and Arrow of Light scouts are still referred to as Webelos officially the terms "Webelos 1" and "Webelos 2" have been retired but most Packs still use them.)Marauder40 (talk) 13:14, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

How old is kindergarten? We don't have them or grades in the UK. Is it specifically tied to the school year? We work from birthdays, Beaver Scouts (The Scout Association) start at 6 years-old with 3 months leeway, so 5¾ if the need arises. Alansplodge (talk) 14:44, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Kindergarten is primarily for 5 year olds. BSA primarily goes with grades, but there is some give and take within that and there are minimum and maximum ages for different parts of the program. Marauder40 (talk) 17:33, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Alansplodge, answering another question that you maybe had, in the US, kindergarten is the year of school before grade one. Like grade 0. It's optional, but most kids go to it. North8000 (talk) 19:03, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

So how old? We don't have grades either. Alansplodge (talk) 20:29, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I think it's like they need to be 5 by September or October to start Kindergarten, and they start a little before that. So a few might be 4 for their first couple months in school but most are 5.North8000 (talk) 20:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. In the UK system, there's optional pre-school, then school proper starts with "Reception" starting at age 4 and "Year 1" is 5-6 year-olds. Alansplodge (talk) 08:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I think that I analyzed that wrong. At the beginning of the school year a few are 4, 5 is the most common age, but many will turn 6 during the school year. North8000 (talk) 15:08, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Interesting link on Scouting

"Boy Scout Theodore Roosevelt Troop 39 of Oyster Bay". --evrik ^(talk) 21:03, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Baden-Powell Service Association (Canada)

The article needs some attention because of extensive copyvios starting last year and a massive conflict of interests by one contributor. Plese comment on Talk:Baden-Powell Service Association (Canada)#2018 Copyright Issues. --jergen (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

World Scout Centres

A knowledgeable sometime-editor removed the Chile and Egypt ones-have they closed?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

On https://www.scout.org the menu item World -> World Scout Centre links only to KISC --Egel _Reaction? 08:00, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

AFAIK they are not closed but no longer labelled as "World Scout Centres". Something with marketing and standards. --jergen (talk) 11:16, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

kicking and screaming...

https://scoutingwire.org/the-boy-scouts-of-america-organization-name-is-not-changing-and-other-facts-to-set-the-record-straight/ --Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:15, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I wonder how the "linked troops" will work, since the graphic shows a single Troop Committee but the prose states Troops will all be single gender. I might just ask BSA about that. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 16:34, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Looks like 2 troops but sharing a committee and chartering organization. North8000 (talk) 01:06, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

The same way as International Union of Guides and Scouts of Europe local male and female groups work together? ( for example https://www.europascouts.be/waar ). Or is the BSA finally going to introduce a Scout Group level like the rest of the world? --Egel _Reaction? 20:02, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand. But it looks to me like they are taking it slow /careful. North8000 (talk) 10:57, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

UK Scouting and Communism

I have added a section at Talk:The Scout Association#Scouting and Communism about an item added to the History section last year which perhaps ought to be deleted. Comments are invited please. Alansplodge (talk) 19:15, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background

On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you. — The Transhumanist 07:54, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Scouting_and_Guiding_in_New_South_Wales#Scout_sexual_abuse_cases

I have a weird feeling about this section being in a local state article. Anyone?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 23:33, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Sexual abuse in organisations is high in the minds of Australians because of the enquiry mentioned in that section - the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. That was a very big national enquiry, lasting over four years, and only finishing last December. It covered such events in churches, schools, etc, as well. That would be why those incidents would have been seen as significant by the editor(s) who added them to the article. But as with pretty much all of those kinds of events, they were a long time ago, and have since been prosecuted. The broader issue was a national one, not state related. They really don't belong in that article. HiLo48 (talk) 00:00, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

List of World Organization of the Scout Movement members

A driveby editor, TaerkastUA, has changed "Republic of China" to "Taiwan (ROC)" in the List of World Organization of the Scout Movement members article, stating "Rvt it needn't be precise. It's simpler and concise, more accurately reflecting the movements foundation, if disagree further, lets take it to the talk page before more reversions.". Whatever that means. It's neither simpler nor more concise, and does not in fact "more accurately reflect... the movements foundation", as the organization was founded at the time the Republic of China meant the whole country, which corresponds to the time of WOSM's founding. So no. It's not the term the NSO uses, and since the country uses different naming when in international settings, vide Chinese Taipei at the 2016 Summer Olympics, the original naming should stand and be left to regular members of the Scouting WikiProject to maintain or change.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 16:38, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

The Scouts/Guides Organisation (India)

This article was prodded by a user; I deprodded it but added the two potential sources he gave me, awaiting review. What do you all think?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 16:22, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

http://www.thescouts.ac.in/news.php?id=5 http://www.thescouts.ac.in/et-admin/assets/galance/27022018123806_1.JPG http://www.thescouts.ac.in/et-admin/assets/galance/27022018123709.jpg ? There is something strange happening --Egel _Reaction? 21:41, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Egel! Any ideas how to proceed? It should not be deleted outright, is the wording I added enough?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 00:18, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

My anti-virus software said that the target of the link is infected. North8000 (talk) 11:50, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Even if the organization is terminated, it is still a big historical organization.

Maybe make a list of the facts that we can find and of the questions / uncertainties? And try to find sources for those.

fact
- The (name of the) organization was used by a criminal
questions / uncertainties
- Is the organization still a member of the WFIS?
  - The website of WFIS Asia is dead
  - No direct link to WFIS on their websites.
- Does the organization still exist?

--Egel _Reaction? 13:43, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

The (name of the) organization was used by a criminal
It is only the victim of conspiracy. No solid proof of his misdeed or misrepresentation. No one come forward to proof it before the court till the date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scouts2018 (talk • contribs)
Is the organization still a member of the WFIS?
Yes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scouts2018 (talk • contribs)

Does the organization still exist?
The Organisation is having 1.3 million members in India and doing great job in India.This is nothing only colorable excersize to defame the image of an organisation by another organisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scouts2018 (talk • contribs)

I've got the feeling that there is a number of "ghost organizations" in India competing for public funding. Not only the Scouts/Guides Organisation - with different factions accusing everybody else to be a fraud - but also the All India Boy Scouts Association seems to be a facade.

Some official words concerning the status of the SGO: [1], [2]. As far as I could find out, the SGO offered employment as a Scoutmaster, but never signed any contracts, while the candidates had to pay for their training.

The last accessible version of the website of WFIS Asia (August 2015, [3]) lists the following organizations

FULL MEMBERS
1-The Scout Guide Organisation
2-Scout Bharti
3-Sriram Bajpai Scouts & Guides Organisations
4-Hindustan Scouts & Guides
PROSPECT MEMBERS-
1-Independent Scouts of Japan
2-Nepal Independent Scouts Association
3-Metro Scouts
4-Lady Baden Powell Scouts & Guides Association
5-Agness Baden Powell Girl Guides Association
6-Delhi State Girl Guides & Boy Scouts Association
7-Balchar Bhari

as well as a number of "preprospect members", whatever that may be.

The Hindustan Scouts and Guides Association, the second state recognised association in India, and the Metro Scouts Nepal seemingly exist. The "Nepal Independent Scouts Association" were possibly renamed to "Nepal Peace Scouts". I could not find any proof of existence for the remainder of the list.

While searching I came also upon the "Peace Scouts and Guides India", the Universal Scouts and Guides Organisation (very similar to SGO) and the Dravida Scouts Guides Organisation (according to SGO another fraud).

The situation in India is really obscure. --jergen (talk) 17:29, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Because it is so confusing, I propose merging that article (and any other/future article on these minor orgs back into Scouting and Guiding in India, like we do the English regional articles, a section on each one, that way it can be monitored due to weirdness.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 19:37, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

I just got an OTRS from The Powers That Be from the org, in terrible English, with a court document, that wants the source websites for the controversy removed.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:50, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Any suggestions on better wording than my "is possibly defunct"? I don't want to stir the pot, but something is going on. Hate to add a "controversy" section to such a small article, but perhaps a "In 2018, the Telegraph of Calcutta reported that..."?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 18:27, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

I read it but have not become as knowledgeable on it as you. Regarding merger, currently-found sourcing does look a little skinny to build an article from (right now it's kind of just a list of factoids), although such sourcing probably exists. "Defunct" has a common meaning which is more negative than it's technical meaning, so when in doubt I'd try to avoid that term. But overall I'd just defer to the person who knows this article/topic better which is you. North8000 (talk) 12:55, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Reduction of LDS-BSA relationship

Joint 5/9/18 statement from LDS & BSA:

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Boy Scouts of America have been partners for more than 100 years. The Scouting program has benefited hundreds of thousands of Latter-day Saint boys and young men, and BSA has also been greatly benefited in the process. We jointly express our gratitude to the thousands of Scout leaders and volunteers who have selflessly served over the years in Church-sponsored Scouting units, including local BSA districts and councils. In this century of shared experience, the Church has grown from a U.S.-centered institution to a worldwide organization, with a majority of its membership living outside the United States. That trend is accelerating. The Church has increasingly felt the need to create and implement a uniform youth leadership and development program that serves its members globally. In so doing, it will be necessary for the Church to discontinue its role as a chartered partner with BSA. We have jointly determined that, effective on December 31, 2019, the Church will conclude its relationship as a chartered organization with all Scouting programs around the world. Until that date, to allow for an orderly transition, the intention of the Church is to remain a fully engaged partner in Scouting for boys and young men ages 8–13 and encourages all youth, families, and leaders to continue their active participation and financial support. While the Church will no longer be a chartered partner of BSA or sponsor Scouting units after December 31, 2019, it continues to support the goals and values reflected in the Scout Oath and Scout Law and expresses its profound desire for Scouting’s continuing and growing success in the years ahead."

North8000 (talk) 23:45, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

And not a mention of the girl thing to be seen. (Or the gay thing.) Beautiful PR work. A useful statement for verbatim, cited quotes, but not much more. Got a link? HiLo48 (talk) 09:34, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Will this affect the Association des Scouts Liahona? --Egel _Reaction? 10:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

HiLo48, this was correspondence I received from BSA; I have no link. I'm sure that there is some backstory, but I don't know what it is. LDS is huge in BSA, so this is a big deal. North8000 (talk) 21:41, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I know it's a big deal. It will even have a small impact around where I live. I was just impressed at the statement that diplomatically but completely avoided mentioning the real reasons for the parting of the ways. Anything any Wikipedia article says about the separation probably also needs to find sources that mention those real reasons. HiLo48 (talk) 22:04, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

What are the real reasons? Girls? Gays? Both? Neither? I'm in the dark. Information might help to get good sources. --Bduke (Discussion) 10:57, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The Australian Scout Group I was until recently responsible for occasionally acquires members at Scout level from a nearby LDS Church which runs its own boys only Cub Pack, but no higher sections. People from that church had told me the church in the US could not, in the long term, accept BSA including either girls or gays. (The locals believed Scouting was so important for their boys they were willing to put up with our inclusion of girls, and not caring whether anyone was gay.) HiLo48 (talk) 11:23, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. That is what I thought it might be, but it is good confirmation. It also shows the Aussie LDS has a bit of the Aussie common sense issues about these issues. But of course your info is not a good source. --Bduke (Discussion) 11:51, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

Agreed on all counts. HiLo48 (talk) 22:03, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

I met with the District Executive today, it turns out that the local BSA is preparing to lose a lot of its enrollment due to the Mormons leaving next year. He said he's opened three new units this year, so that sounds like good news. Western Region is supposed to take the biggest hit, and Salt Lake is expected to lose 90%. The Utah numbers are artificially inflated anyway, compared to their population, but I am sure they will soon make up for it with girl members, so BSA will weather it just fine.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:18, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone have a clue what this is regarding?

The following is an official statement from the BSA's National Council. Please be aware that any comments to the media should be made by the National or local Councils only. If you receive any media inquiries, please route them to PR@scouting.org.

“We just became aware of the lawsuit filed in the Southern District Court of New York, and we are reviewing it carefully.
“Our decision to expand our program offerings for girls came after years of requests from families who wanted the option of the BSA’s character - and leadership-development programs for their children – boys and girls. We believe that we owe it to our current and future members to offer families the options they want.”
“We applaud every organization that builds character and leadership in children, including the Girl Scouts of the USA, and believe that there is an opportunity for both organizations to serve girls and boys in our communities.”

On background:

The Boy Scouts of America has served girls in our programs since 1971 through Sea Scouts, Venturing and Exploring; in fact, there are currently over 170,000 girls registered in Boy Scout of

America programs.

In the time since we’ve welcomed both boys and girls in Cub Scouts, over 62,000 girls have registered underscoring families’ interest in the programs offered by the Boy Scouts of America.

We take the brand and trademark of all organizations seriously and have worked proactively to differentiate our unique program offerings. Any time we have been made aware of an instance of potential confusion around our programs, we immediately took steps to correct and clarify."

Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:43, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe someone has demanded they change the name of the organisation to something that actually makes sense. HiLo48 (talk) 06:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I think this has to do with the odd way that "Scouts" is a sort of shared trademark between the GSUSA and the BSA. I seem to recall there was a dispute back in the 1970s when the BSA tried using "Scouting/USA". There were older disputes over "Scouts" back in the 19 teens and twenties and the GSUSA was able to keep the Scout name though most other groups had to change (it probably helped having Baden Powell as a personal friend of Juliette Gordon Low). The GSUSA is probably claiming that the proposed name change will cause people to confuse the two organizations more than they already do. --Erp (talk) 06:54, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Got it- Berthelsen, Christian. "The Girl Scouts Just Sued the Boy Scouts Over Use of the Term 'Scout'". Time Magazine. Bloomberg. Retrieved 2018-11-07. Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 10:14, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes. It has even made the news in Australia - [4] Pretty amazing. We Aussies usually just laugh/feel sad about the backwardness of BSA. It looks like interesting times for Scouting in the USA. HiLo48 (talk) 10:22, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

HiLo48 instead of taking cheap shots, how about understanding at least one of the historical obstacles to going coed that BSA faces that you didn't have to deal with. Different cultures with different barriers, and do you really think it's Scout-like to call fellow Scouts "backward"?Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 20:52, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

I think that they are now PC in every possible way so I don't think that they would currently be called backward. Not that I think that any of the evolution is bad, I think that it's all good.North8000 (talk) 13:19, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

No cheap shot there. Just the truth. It has been sad, and funny at times, to watch the conservatives in BSA ignore and resist many of the principles of Scouting over the years in their problems with girls, gays and gods. And this is a global perspective, not just Australian. Our neighbours in Muslim majority Indonesia have been far more progressive. While recent changes in the USA are very welcome, the new name, with the BSA bit still in it, is an illogical backwards reference to the all boys organisation. I didn't realise the problems they would face with the Girl Scouts. I guess they didn't either. HiLo48 (talk) 21:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

In fact the BSA very well understood the pitfalls as early as 1971, vide Scouting/USA. You come off badly doubling down on a sledge that you haven't researched. Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:38, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Understanding it in 1971, and still not having it properly sorted out now? Hmmmm. Look, I'm delighted with the changes made in recent years, but that doesn't put BSA at the forefront of good Scouting principles. But that's not what we should be discussing here. HiLo48 (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Over 1700 trademarks of "Scout" or "Scouts" - Girl Scouts of the USA's case won't stand up Bogger (talk) 13:42, 7 November 2018 (UTC)