Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 13
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2010 NBA All-Star Weekend
Someone move 2010 NBA All-Star Game to 2010 NBA All-Star Weekend. I agree with it because the article covers more than just the game. Should we move other All-Star Game articles per the same reason?—Chris!c/t 03:33, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- It makes sense to me. If we do move all of the All-Star Game articles, then we'll also have to tweak their opening sentences. —LOL T/C 04:29, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with the idea. But since most of the older All-Star Game articles does not covers the other events, I think we should only move those which already covers the other events. We should expand the older articles to cover the other events, before moving them. Also, if they're moved, then the lead needs to be changed, and probably the infobox and the navbox need to be tweaked. I recall that the NBA started the Slam Dunk contest in 1984 and the Three-Point Shootout in 1986. Anyone knows whether there are any other All-Star Weekend events prior to 1984? — Martin tamb (talk) 14:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. I can change the infobox. And I don't think there are any All-Star Weekend events prior to 1984. So, articles before 1984 don't need to move.—Chris!c/t 00:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- There was some sort of old-timers' game before then. But I don't know many exact details offhand. Zagalejo^^^ 06:35, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Well, according to a blacklisted site that I can't link to (allstarnba.es), there were old timers' games in 1957 and 1964, but it didn't become an annual event until 1984. Zagalejo^^^ 06:42, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- But if those weren't official events, we can't really add them to the article.—Chris!c/t 20:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, they were official, as far as I can tell; just not regular events. But since there were only two of them, they're not worth worrying about in terms of article titles. I don't think the phrase "All-Star Weekend" was used when they took place. Zagalejo^^^ 01:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- So basically, never mind what I said. Zagalejo^^^ 01:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
- But if those weren't official events, we can't really add them to the article.—Chris!c/t 20:19, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- Agree. I can change the infobox. And I don't think there are any All-Star Weekend events prior to 1984. So, articles before 1984 don't need to move.—Chris!c/t 00:09, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with the idea. But since most of the older All-Star Game articles does not covers the other events, I think we should only move those which already covers the other events. We should expand the older articles to cover the other events, before moving them. Also, if they're moved, then the lead needs to be changed, and probably the infobox and the navbox need to be tweaked. I recall that the NBA started the Slam Dunk contest in 1984 and the Three-Point Shootout in 1986. Anyone knows whether there are any other All-Star Weekend events prior to 1984? — Martin tamb (talk) 14:07, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
Infobox
Why not do away with the NBAretired and combine the two, being that the NFL format is already similar to the NBAretired and can stil have the awards section and the stats section and the team colors, why not change it so we can have just one infobox rather than two? Beast from da East (talk) 18:50, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- I rarely edits the players articles and infoboxes, but I agree with the idea of combining the retired and active infoboxes. It will be more simple. — Martin tamb (talk) 06:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
2012 NBA All-Star Game
Toronto is incorrectly listed as the host for the 2012 NBA All-Star Game. We have not applied with the league (NBA) to play host to any upcoming All-Star Weekend. Jim LaBumbard, Director of Media Relations, Toronto Raptors, February 16, 2010 38.99.177.98 (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've removed it from the NBA All-Star Game page. I have no idea who added that; the article was bombarded with mostly unhelpful edits during the All-Star Weekend. An earlier version of the page listed Orlando as the host, but I don't think any official announcement has been made. Did you see the error anywhere else? Zagalejo^^^ 22:10, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Trade deadline madness
Hey, can we keep an eye on articles of players involved in trade speculation and/or mentioned in impending trades? There have been some serious crystal ballin' on the Antawn Jamison trade. As of right now, Jamison is only "reportedly" headed to Cleveland in a trade that's "agreed in principle", as in, the trade is probable, and hasn't happened. Please help undo any premature edits on the following articles, and any other player who pops up in the news over the next 24 hours:
Thanks. --Mosmof (talk) 04:01, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- It just became official [1] - and Brian Skinner isn't in the deal (early reports were wrong - and some other still reporting it) Blahblah32blahblah (talk) 04:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting the link. Next up are rumors involving Amar'e Stoudemire, John Salmons Ray Allen, and Tracy McGrady I guess. --Mosmof (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, I'll keep an eye on those articles. — Martin tamb (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yahoo!'s "NBA deadline trade tracker" has a good list of players whose articles could see increased activity. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Since the date has passed, these crystal balling activities have pretty much died down.—Chris!c/t 22:59, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Yahoo!'s "NBA deadline trade tracker" has a good list of players whose articles could see increased activity. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:55, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, I'll keep an eye on those articles. — Martin tamb (talk) 05:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting the link. Next up are rumors involving Amar'e Stoudemire, John Salmons Ray Allen, and Tracy McGrady I guess. --Mosmof (talk) 04:50, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
OT...
is Tyrus back in the house? Chensiyuan (talk) 13:37, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
- I says yes as Hoops gza (talk · contribs · logs) is exhibiting Tyrus-like behavior. Recently, he started inserting "greatest basketball player" to Micheal Jordan. Myasuda warn me a while back.—Chris!c/t 19:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
- Anybody has something to weigh in on this? I'm sick of belligerent behaviour. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- What has he done lately that's so bad? I don't understand this reversion. Zagalejo^^^ 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Right now career-highs are in bold. He's been trying to make bold league-highs for the seasons in question. As far as I understand it that's not the project's convention. This is against the larger backdrop of previous acts like insisting that starting 82 games is a career achievement because it was "leading" the league... Chensiyuan (talk) 04:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, OK. I wasn't paying attention to the bolding. Zagalejo^^^ 04:51, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Right now career-highs are in bold. He's been trying to make bold league-highs for the seasons in question. As far as I understand it that's not the project's convention. This is against the larger backdrop of previous acts like insisting that starting 82 games is a career achievement because it was "leading" the league... Chensiyuan (talk) 04:47, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- What has he done lately that's so bad? I don't understand this reversion. Zagalejo^^^ 04:34, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
- Anybody has something to weigh in on this? I'm sick of belligerent behaviour. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Infobox Change...Now
Alright here is my proposal, we do way with the NBAretired infobox and change the current format to the NFL format, this way we we can use only one infobox. The NFL format is the best of both worlds, we can still use the colors, the awards section, the stats section, etc., so why not change it to the clearly better organized infobox. How about a vote? Beast from da East (talk) 05:53, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
- I support the change, but I have never really involved in player's articles, both retired and active. We shall wait for more votes from editors who are more involved in the player's articles. — Martin tamb (talk) 17:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Agree - Although can we please change the "former teams" section to include all the teams a player has played on? It's very confusing as it exists now. — X96lee15 (talk) 17:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is a good idea. New editors are constantly putting current teams into that section, and frankly, it's hard to blame them. It's easy to miss the current team name at the top of the infobox. Zagalejo^^^ 20:55, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't mind changing, but I think we should let someone with template knowledge to make the change. Merging these two templates seems to be a complicated process.—Chris!c/t 18:32, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- What the NFL project (including me) is doing is slowly eliminating the NFLretired infobox by replacing it with the current one, which is what we are going to have to do if I can get it changed.Beast from da East (talk) 02:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I have a test version at {{User:LOL/Sandbox}}. You can help out by verifying that its output is correct for any active or retired player. A few points:
- The new format introduces the parameters debut_team, final_team, and statdate.
- I'm not sure where to fit in draft_team from the old format.
- We should decide on a consistent style for parameters names because it's messy to have, for example, both birth_date (Infobox NBA Player) and birthdate (NBAretired) in the same template.
—LOL T/C 23:58, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for cooking that up. I have a few comments:
- I'd prefer to get rid of salary. I don't believe the other sports infoboxes include this field. And in any case, we should try to reduce the number of article elements that need to be updated on a regular basis. We can discuss contract details in the body of the article.
- I'm also thinking we should get rid of the stats section. The infobox should be simple and streamlined. A stats table at the end of the article should be good enough. Plus, one of those external links in the infobox can do the job, as well.
- Isn't "Debuted in...Last played in" redundant to the Career history section? Zagalejo^^^ 07:26, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem with the stats section or the debut/last played sections, it just provides a quick overview of their career. Beast from da East (talk) 19:50, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I'm mainly concerned about the stats section in active players' articles. I just know that out-of-date stats are going to end up sitting there for months at a time. Zagalejo^^^ 01:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Just a few suggestion:
- The stats section is optional, we can either leave it off and include it once a player retires, or put a disclaimer like the NFL and MLB does and only add stats once the season is over. Beast from da East (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- If the career history for playing and coaching career are separated, why don't the career highlights and awards are also separated between playing and coaching.
- IMO draft_team does not need to be mentioned. Sometimes a player get drafted by a team and few hours later he was traded to other team. Also, this information can be easily found by opening that year's draft article or any of the external links.
- — Martin tamb (talk) 11:46, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- A few of my own preferences:
- I like to keep the stat section only for retired players. Although this is a little redundant to the career stat section at the end of each player articles, it provides a quick overview of their career.
- I think draft_team is necessary. "Sometimes a player get drafted by a team and few hours later he was traded to other team" (sorry for copying directly from Martin tamb) is exactly the reason why. In these cases, players' draft team is unclear. It is quite inconvenient and time consuming to find this info, having to read the prose or look at external basketball websites.
- Agree that salary parameter is useless
- Agree that consistent style for parameters is needed. In the case of birth date, I prefer birth_date instead of birthdate—Chris!c/t 01:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, all that needs to be done is it figure out how to fit draft team in the infobox and get rid of salary and the new and improved infobox it ready to launch. Beast from da East (talk) 18:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Restart
I think we should repost our comments in order to achieve an agreement on the infobox and finally launch it.
- debut_team and final_team: Excellent additions, although I think final_team shouldn't be mentioned if the player is still active.
- statdate: As with other comments, I think the stats should be restricted to the player that has retired.
- draft_team: This parameter could go below the draft year, round and pick, just like the current Template:Infobox NBA Player.
- Salary: Not needed, difficult to find reliable reference for the values.
— Martin tamb (talk) 09:39, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with Martin tamb—Chris!c/t 23:20, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- I also agree, the stats section is optional so once a player retires, or if a player has already retired, we can add the stats section, for an acitve player, we can just leave the stats section off until that player retires. Also, the final team part is strictly for retired players, as seen on the MLB and NFL infoboxes. Beast from da East (talk) 16:33, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I've made some changes, and it seems that it's almost ready; I have just a few more questions:
- Should we do anything about "Debuted in...Last played in" being redundant?
- Should we split career highlights into player and coach sections?
- Would anyone mind if we start using the birth_date style instead of birthdate?
—LOL T/C 16:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have not problem with the debuted in, last played in, so I think it should be kept in my opinion. As for the career highlights being split up, don't think that needs to happen. It appears ready to launch right now, so unless anybody else has some ideas they would like to share, lets launch this thing. Beast from da East (talk) 18:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- What's the benefit of the "Debuted in..." line? Zagalejo^^^ 22:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Remove "Debuted in...", keep player and coach career highlights separate and use birth_date.—Chris!c/t 23:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ex: Michael Jordan Debuted in 1984–85 for the Chicago Bulls, Last played in 2002–03 for the Washington Wizards we need that in the infobox like the NFL and MLB infoboxes have. Beast from da East (talk) 00:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, you don't need that. Career history section already lists all the teams a player played for.—Chris!c/t 02:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- For the major players like Jordan and Shaq, that is true, but what about the players whose articles are stubs and have very little info. The simple fact is that it does not hurt the article at all to have those sections in the infobox. Beast from da East (talk) 02:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- For any players, this is unnecessary. The same info can be find in the career history section. Infobox should be as simple as possible and shouldn't contain redundant info.—Chris!c/t 02:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- I also think both debut and last played are a little bit redundant, the first team in the career history is definitely the team in which a player had their debut and the last team there is also definitely the team in which he last played for. Also, what if the player had played on other leagues before joining the NBA, do we put the non-NBA team or do we put the NBA team as the debut_team? It's better summarized on the career history section to avoid any confusion. On second thought about career highlight section as both coach and players, it doesn't need to be separate. We could manually separate them like this and this — Martin tamb (talk) 15:14, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- Alright get rid of the debut team, final team, debuted in, last played in and lets just launch this thing already. Can we all agree on that? Beast from da East (talk) 17:02, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- For any players, this is unnecessary. The same info can be find in the career history section. Infobox should be as simple as possible and shouldn't contain redundant info.—Chris!c/t 02:37, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- For the major players like Jordan and Shaq, that is true, but what about the players whose articles are stubs and have very little info. The simple fact is that it does not hurt the article at all to have those sections in the infobox. Beast from da East (talk) 02:31, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, you don't need that. Career history section already lists all the teams a player played for.—Chris!c/t 02:21, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ex: Michael Jordan Debuted in 1984–85 for the Chicago Bulls, Last played in 2002–03 for the Washington Wizards we need that in the infobox like the NFL and MLB infoboxes have. Beast from da East (talk) 00:56, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- Remove "Debuted in...", keep player and coach career highlights separate and use birth_date.—Chris!c/t 23:12, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- What's the benefit of the "Debuted in..." line? Zagalejo^^^ 22:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- I have not problem with the debuted in, last played in, so I think it should be kept in my opinion. As for the career highlights being split up, don't think that needs to happen. It appears ready to launch right now, so unless anybody else has some ideas they would like to share, lets launch this thing. Beast from da East (talk) 18:22, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- (outdent) Well, the career highlight section is not separated. It is the career history section that is being separated. And let's not rush launching this until everything is agreed upon.—Chris!c/t 18:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I think this is ready. If nobody has any objection, I think we should launch.—Chris!c/t 02:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- I just remembered that I currently use career_end or final_year to determine whether or not to display career statistics. Should I put in the start–end years like the current active infobox? —LOL T/C 03:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- What do you mean?—Chris!c/t 04:28, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- The career start–end years were removed along with debut_team and final_team. I'm thinking I should add back just start–end years alone. —LOL T/C 04:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok—Chris!c/t 05:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- It took almost an entire month, but it appears it is ready to launch, so go ahead and launch. Beast from da East (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- It seems like you're trying to make it sound as if a month is supposed to be a long time, but I didn't sense any urgency in a primarily stylistic change. Anyhow, I've replaced Infobox NBA Player's code. If nothing goes wrong, then I'll redirect NBAretired. —LOL T/C 01:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I am satisfied.—Chris!c/t 04:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with LOL that we don't need to rush anything. Anyway, I've tried to apply the new template on Phil Jackson (retired player who went on into coaching) and the results looks great. The only problem is that the "Info page" which links to nba.com/playerfile keeps on showing, although Jackson has no current nba.com/playerfile page. Perhaps that parameter should be optional or it should be able to link into his historical playerfile. — Martin tamb (talk) 07:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I'm hoping to use the value of career_end to determine whether or not to link to the historical playerfile. Does anyone know if there's an exact year at which it's safe to use the non-historical playerfile? —LOL T/C 08:07, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, I'm not sure if I can use career_end because some infoboxes pass in {{nbay}}, which I can't use as operands. Does anyone know how widespread that template is for the debutyear/finalyear/career_start/career_end parameters? —LOL T/C 08:33, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Agree with LOL that we don't need to rush anything. Anyway, I've tried to apply the new template on Phil Jackson (retired player who went on into coaching) and the results looks great. The only problem is that the "Info page" which links to nba.com/playerfile keeps on showing, although Jackson has no current nba.com/playerfile page. Perhaps that parameter should be optional or it should be able to link into his historical playerfile. — Martin tamb (talk) 07:52, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I am satisfied.—Chris!c/t 04:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- It seems like you're trying to make it sound as if a month is supposed to be a long time, but I didn't sense any urgency in a primarily stylistic change. Anyhow, I've replaced Infobox NBA Player's code. If nothing goes wrong, then I'll redirect NBAretired. —LOL T/C 01:59, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- It took almost an entire month, but it appears it is ready to launch, so go ahead and launch. Beast from da East (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok—Chris!c/t 05:02, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- The career start–end years were removed along with debut_team and final_team. I'm thinking I should add back just start–end years alone. —LOL T/C 04:54, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- What do you mean?—Chris!c/t 04:28, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- I just remembered that I currently use career_end or final_year to determine whether or not to display career statistics. Should I put in the start–end years like the current active infobox? —LOL T/C 03:19, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, I think this is ready. If nobody has any objection, I think we should launch.—Chris!c/t 02:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)
- (outdent) Any player that last played in 2008–09, season such as Mutombo, already has a historical playerfile even though his non-historical playerfile are still there. Even Cuttino Mobley, who were in this season's roster and not playing any minutes, also have historical playerfile. Moreover, current players also showed up in historical player search and their link automatically redirected to their non-historical playerfile, e.g.: Garnett's historical playerfile automatically redirected to his non-historical playerfile. Another strange thing happens in some legendary players, such as Michael Jordan, who had three different page for their stats, old version playerfile, historical playerfile, and NBA encyclopedia statistics. For now, if career_end has a value, linking to the historical playerfile looks quite safe. About the {{nbay}} templates, I think it's wise not to use it on career start and career end, because the season's article already linked on the career history. Also I don't think it's quite often used in the current templates. — Martin tamb (talk) 08:48, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, I thought the non-historical playerfile would be preferred, but I guess your suggestion works better. —LOL T/C 09:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've tried the new formats on three articles, Wilt Chamberlain (retired player), Kobe Bryant (active player) and Phil Jackson (former player who became a head coach). IMO it looks really good, please have a look and have a suggestion that might improve the infobox. Just another comment about D-League players using the infobox. For example, Coby Karl article looks good with the infobox, but there is no parameter in the infobox that shows that he currently played in the D-League. To me it's fine because the team's name is enough to know whether he is currently in the D-League or NBA, but some other readers might not know this information. Any suggestion? — Martin tamb (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should add a new parameter to denote players in the d-league.—Chris!c/t 18:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Since this template works great, I also think it is time to launch it in articles with the old NBAretired template.—Chris!c/t 19:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Where exactly do you want to put the league info? —LOL T/C 20:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- What about after the team name, so it looks like "No 12 Idaho Stampede (D-League)". Perhaps this parameter should only appears if the league is not NBA and should work with any other values, so it could work with any former NBA players who are currently in the other leagues. Also could you make the line " As player:" in career history section not showing if a player has no coaching career? It nothing big, just to make it looks better. Thanks! — Martin tamb (talk) 03:36, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is better for the league parameter should show NBA as default if empty, and change to d-league if filled.—Chris!c/t 04:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Not a bad idea. Also can the league link have the same colour as the rest of the line (right now, in Coby Karl article, the "D-League" text is blue while the team name and the number is black). I tried to changed it myself but it's not working, the template coding is too complicated for me. — Martin tamb (talk) 05:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think the league link can have the same colour unless the league parameter is unlinked in all pages that transclude the template. —LOL T/C 06:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC) P.S. I wish all of these requests came in during the template's sandbox stage!
- Does the league have to be in that first line at all? I think things were simpler before when the league had its own line in the infobox. Zagalejo^^^ 16:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think the league link can have the same colour unless the league parameter is unlinked in all pages that transclude the template. —LOL T/C 06:02, 10 April 2010 (UTC) P.S. I wish all of these requests came in during the template's sandbox stage!
- Not a bad idea. Also can the league link have the same colour as the rest of the line (right now, in Coby Karl article, the "D-League" text is blue while the team name and the number is black). I tried to changed it myself but it's not working, the template coding is too complicated for me. — Martin tamb (talk) 05:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is better for the league parameter should show NBA as default if empty, and change to d-league if filled.—Chris!c/t 04:49, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- What about after the team name, so it looks like "No 12 Idaho Stampede (D-League)". Perhaps this parameter should only appears if the league is not NBA and should work with any other values, so it could work with any former NBA players who are currently in the other leagues. Also could you make the line " As player:" in career history section not showing if a player has no coaching career? It nothing big, just to make it looks better. Thanks! — Martin tamb (talk) 03:36, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Where exactly do you want to put the league info? —LOL T/C 20:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Since this template works great, I also think it is time to launch it in articles with the old NBAretired template.—Chris!c/t 19:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think we should add a new parameter to denote players in the d-league.—Chris!c/t 18:54, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've tried the new formats on three articles, Wilt Chamberlain (retired player), Kobe Bryant (active player) and Phil Jackson (former player who became a head coach). IMO it looks really good, please have a look and have a suggestion that might improve the infobox. Just another comment about D-League players using the infobox. For example, Coby Karl article looks good with the infobox, but there is no parameter in the infobox that shows that he currently played in the D-League. To me it's fine because the team's name is enough to know whether he is currently in the D-League or NBA, but some other readers might not know this information. Any suggestion? — Martin tamb (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Ah, I thought the non-historical playerfile would be preferred, but I guess your suggestion works better. —LOL T/C 09:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I was looking at the Michael Jordan article, and saw that the first line of the infobox under the image caption reads, "No. 23, 45, 9 (NBA)". Jordan never wore #9 in the NBA; he only wore that during the Olympics. However, the infobox suggests that #9 was one of his NBA jerseys. (A similar issue pops up at Charles Barkley, and probably elsewhere.) Is there a way to shuffle things around so that the jersey numbers and league names aren't juxtaposed this way? Could we just omit the league altogether from the retired players' infoboxes, as we did before? (That would also simplify matters in the cases of players who participated in many leagues throughout their careers.) Zagalejo^^^ 16:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Seems like everyone is satisfied. Should we start redirecting NBAretired to the new template?—Chris!c/t 22:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I currently have it so that the league is only displayed for active players, instead of putting the league in its own line. If we're good with that, then I guess we can redirect it or wait a while for any more issues that we're not yet aware about. —LOL T/C 22:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Alright, thanks. That was my main concern regarding the NBAretired transition. Zagalejo^^^ 23:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I currently have it so that the league is only displayed for active players, instead of putting the league in its own line. If we're good with that, then I guess we can redirect it or wait a while for any more issues that we're not yet aware about. —LOL T/C 22:14, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Seems like everyone is satisfied. Should we start redirecting NBAretired to the new template?—Chris!c/t 22:04, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Something else I've noticed: if a player is a non-retired free agent (like Marcus Landry), we're stuck with a "()" in the infobox where the league should be. (Or, if the league line is completely deleted from the infobox, then the infobox will automatically display "NBA" as the league.) I think we should make the league optional because of situations like this. Zagalejo^^^ 23:31, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- I fixed the problem for non-retired free agents, but I think someone wanted the league to be NBA by default. —LOL T/C 02:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I wanted the league to be NBA by default to make editing easier. Is it possible to avoid the non-retired free agents problem while keeping this function intact?—Chris!c/t 02:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Currently I have it so that "(NBA)" is displayed if nothing's passed into the league parameter, but nothing is displayed if whitespace is passed in. —LOL T/C 02:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Seems to look OK now. Thanks. Zagalejo^^^ 18:49, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Currently I have it so that "(NBA)" is displayed if nothing's passed into the league parameter, but nothing is displayed if whitespace is passed in. —LOL T/C 02:57, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I wanted the league to be NBA by default to make editing easier. Is it possible to avoid the non-retired free agents problem while keeping this function intact?—Chris!c/t 02:46, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
- I fixed the problem for non-retired free agents, but I think someone wanted the league to be NBA by default. —LOL T/C 02:41, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
I should've realized this earlier, but the league output is hard to read in some infoboxes (e.g. some of the Grizzlies players) because I'm unable to control its colour if a link is passed in. I'm going to give it its own line as previously suggested, and I currently have it below the career start–end line. Let me know if any other arrangement could work. —LOL T/C 12:37, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- I actually prefer that the league output is on the side of the team name because it's signifies in which league is the player and the team are currently playing in. Putting it below the "Pro career" could made things confusing for some players who played in other leagues aside of his NBA career, for example Brad Miller and Stephon Marbury. Perhaps it should be moved somewhere else or my suggestion is to expand the parameter into league and league_link, apply the nba color code similar to team and team_link, and restore them to the team line. I know it's not the best solution, perhaps anyone will have a better suggestion. — Martin tamb (talk) 14:54, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know it's not currently in the best place, but I don't think I should implement the league_link/league scheme until I perform a search through all the infoboxes and remove the links in the league parameter. Could we keep the current format for a couple of weeks while I take care of some non-wiki tasks and then work on this? —LOL T/C 22:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I can help run AWB to remove all the links in the league parameter in the meantime if that is what needs to be done.—Chris!c/t 23:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, take your time, this league parameter is not a major issue. — Martin tamb (talk) 08:21, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I can help run AWB to remove all the links in the league parameter in the meantime if that is what needs to be done.—Chris!c/t 23:24, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know it's not currently in the best place, but I don't think I should implement the league_link/league scheme until I perform a search through all the infoboxes and remove the links in the league parameter. Could we keep the current format for a couple of weeks while I take care of some non-wiki tasks and then work on this? —LOL T/C 22:49, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- Before you run AWB, I'd like to write up a script so that we can do as much as possible in one pass. So far I've renamed a few parameters, removed salary, and added the current team to what used to be former_teams. I also want to replace draft with draft_round and draft_pick, so I'd like to know all of the common formats. Thus far I've covered the "Undrafted", "mth round, nth overall" and "nth overall" cases. Are there any more? —LOL T/C 19:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- That's all I think.—Chris!c/t 20:32, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Before you run AWB, I'd like to write up a script so that we can do as much as possible in one pass. So far I've renamed a few parameters, removed salary, and added the current team to what used to be former_teams. I also want to replace draft with draft_round and draft_pick, so I'd like to know all of the common formats. Thus far I've covered the "Undrafted", "mth round, nth overall" and "nth overall" cases. Are there any more? —LOL T/C 19:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
- Default image size
- What should the default image size be? Does it matter? I think 225px or 250px is reasonable, but if it's not a big deal..GWST11 (talk) 05:31, 13 April 2010 (UTC)
FYI, there is a thread on Template talk:Infobox NBA Player about a change on the coding to satisfy other WP guidelines, like Wikipedia:ACCESS.—Chris!c/t 00:43, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Greetings everyone! I know I am entering this discussion a little late in the game, but feel I should put my two cents in as I spend a considerable amount of time editing NBA player's articles, including their infoboxes. I've looked at both the NBA Player and NBAretired templates and here are my thoughts on both:
- High school: though not absolutely necessary, still good to have as some players have not played in college
- NBA draft: keep
- League information: keep
- Career history: keep & also support including the player's current team as well: ( i.e. Denver Nuggets (2010–present) ) – also would like to clarify if a player played for the same team twice do we include the second appearance in a separate line (see: Chris Webber) or should it be included on the same line (see: Tony Massenburg) ?
- Career highlights and awards: keep
- Career stats: for retired only
- Debut/Retired team: I know MLB player infoboxes use this, but I personally think it is excessive information
- Salary: unnecessary and not that important IMO
everything else looks good...just to clarify, has the green light officially been given to start converting over NBAretired to NBA Player? Djrun (talk) 18:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for joining in. It seems that all your suggestions already implemented in the Template:Infobox NBA Player, except for the career history section about the separate lines. I think you can start converting them, the template works well for the retired players (see Wilt Chamberlain or Phil Jackson). — Martin tamb (talk) 07:25, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
Unreferenced living people articles bot
User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects provides a list, updated daily, of unreferenced living people articles (BLPs) related to your project. There has been a lot of discussion recently about deleting these unreferenced articles, so it is important that these articles are referenced.
The unreferenced articles related to your project can be found at >>>Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 13/Unreferenced BLPs<<<
If you do not want this wikiproject to participate, please add your project name to this list.
Thank you.
- Update: Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 13/Unreferenced BLPs has been created. This list, which is updated by User:DASHBot/Wikiprojects daily, will allow your wikiproject to quickly identify unreferenced living person articles.
- There maybe no or few articles on this new Unreferenced BLPs page. To increase the overall number of articles in your project with another bot, you can sign up for User:Xenobot_Mk_V#Instructions.
- If you have any questions or concerns, visit User talk:DASHBot/Wikiprojects. Okip 00:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
- Here is the actual list of unreferenced BLPs. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- thanks for correcting that dabomb :) Okip 00:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
Templates
From the recent FLC review, it is suggested that the Template:NBA Drafts should have the same width with the other templates, which are the seasonal templates. I agree with this because the templates looks ugly, similar situations occurred on the National Basketball Association#External links, 2009 NBA Finals#External links and many others. If there is no objection, I'll change the width on the following templates: Template:NBA Drafts, Template:NBA seasons, Template:NBA Playoffs and Template:NBA Finals. — Martin tamb (talk) 09:23, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I just be bold and changed Template:NBA Drafts.—Chris!c/t 23:31, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I changed all the other three templates also. :) — Martin tamb (talk) 08:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Infobox help
I need help finding the College and Pro HOF IDs for Pete Carril.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:13, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aren't they at Template:Infobox college coach? —LOL T/C 03:26, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Question
Should sport networks or radio channels be a part of this project? Some editors tag those articles with our project banner. I don't think they should be tagged as they are not related to the NBA. What do you think?—Chris!c/t 05:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- Examples: Fox Sports Detroit, WXYT-FM—Chris!c/t 05:19, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's kind of a stretch, but generally, I don't think talk page banners are anything to fret over. They're harmless, and most readers won't even notice them. Zagalejo^^^ 05:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aren't those articles counted in the "NBA articles by quality and importance" table on our main page? I wouldn't want irrelevant articles to affect our stats. I don't think they should be tagged with our project banner just because they happen to broadcast some NBA games (and likewise for other single-sport projects). It's like tagging Spike (TV channel) with WP:CSI. —LOL T/C 05:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, they are harmless. But like LOL said, the tagging of those articles messed up our stats. I will remove those tags if no one objects.—Chris!c/t 05:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sure, go ahead. Zagalejo^^^ 06:01, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, they are harmless. But like LOL said, the tagging of those articles messed up our stats. I will remove those tags if no one objects.—Chris!c/t 05:48, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aren't those articles counted in the "NBA articles by quality and importance" table on our main page? I wouldn't want irrelevant articles to affect our stats. I don't think they should be tagged with our project banner just because they happen to broadcast some NBA games (and likewise for other single-sport projects). It's like tagging Spike (TV channel) with WP:CSI. —LOL T/C 05:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's kind of a stretch, but generally, I don't think talk page banners are anything to fret over. They're harmless, and most readers won't even notice them. Zagalejo^^^ 05:23, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Fine. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
Wikipedia Signpost interview
Did anyone read the Wikiproject report on The Signpost? Should we do one of these interviews? (We would have to request here) I think it would be a good way to advertise our project and attract editors. Any thoughts? —Chris!c/t 02:00, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- So, no comment?—Chris!c/t 01:18, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Go for it. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
Navbox controversy
I have been debating with folks at WP:HOCKEY about navboxes. Can you please make sure that I am representing the basketball position on the policy User:TonyTheTiger/sandbox/Hockey mafia issue correctly.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:21, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- What is this? All I see is a table with bunch of links.—Chris!c/t 18:30, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
Possible widespread errors
121.1.31.14 (talk · contribs) has inserted a ton of obvious errors, such as incorrect coach listings in roster templates and unsourced home arena changes, which I've reverted. However, there are also a ton of radio-related edits that I don't know how to verify (examples). Is someone able to check them, or should we just revert? —LOL T/C 10:10, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say just revert them, there is only small chance that his/her edits were legitimate as he/she also did not cite any sources. I also didn't know how to verify them, or perhaps we can ask someone at WP:TV for help. — Martin tamb (talk) 18:43, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
- Revert them. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
Sports Notability
There is discussion ongoing at Wikipedia_talk:BIO#RFC:_WP:Athlete_Professional_Clause_Needs_Improvement debating possible changes to the WP:ATHLETE notability guideline. As a result, some have suggested using WP:NSPORT as an eventual replacement for WP:ATHLETE. Editing has begun at WP:NSPORT, please participate to help refine the notability guideline for the sports covered by this wikiproject. —Joshua Scott (LiberalFascist) 03:26, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Chris Cohan
Can I get some more eyes at Chris Cohan? Bitter Warriors fans keep trying to turn the article into a hit piece. Thanks, Zagalejo^^^ 03:51, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Your editing practices are abusive and I suspect that you have a vested interest that would qualify your involvement as astroturfing. -Nuck Chorris
- Please assume good faith. Making baseless accusation will not get you anywhere.—Chris!c/t 22:41, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
This IP is only editing the Cohan BLP and only adding negative content. See pecial:Contributions/67.180.72.59 Off2riorob (talk) 22:14, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I plan to ask at the NPOV noticeboard.—Chris!c/t 22:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Cross-sport uniform template policy discussion
Please come discuss at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Sports#Template_policy_discussion.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:57, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
I had a disagreement with an editor. Can someone offer a second opinion? Thanks.—Chris!c/t 05:14, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
Done. Leave Message, Yellow Evan home
Does the Oklahoma City Thunder recognize the Sonics retired jersey numbers? Anyone know? I am not sure.—Chris!c/t 01:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes. Byron Mullens couldn't wear his college number #32 because it was retired for Fred Brown. [2]. Zagalejo^^^ 02:37, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok. thanks—Chris!c/t 05:38, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
NBA link
While beefing up the Juwan Howard article, I realized that the NBA needs a template like {{cbb link}} for team seasons.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:26, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- I've "retrofitted" {{NBA Year}} with a team parameter. Let me know if you like it and I'll update the doc. —LOL T/C 19:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- What I want is for {{NBA Year|1994|Washington Bullets|Bullets}} to link to Washington Bullets until 1994-95 Washington Bullets season existed with a blue link for Bullets.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- How about "{{NBA Year|1994|team=Washington Bullets|title=Bullets}}" → "Bullets"? —LOL T/C 22:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes that is good. Then once it goes live, we will need to instruct the bot that checks {{cbb link}} and {{cfb link}} for the new pages to check up on this link too.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Juwan Howard is all cleaned up thanks to you. However, do you understand the instructions at User_talk:AnomieBOT#New_template_duty_for_NBA?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, but actually I'm thinking that we should create a separate template for this (if one doesn't already exist) because other leagues and other sports can use this functionality. Any idea for a name? —LOL T/C 19:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- It would be consistent with {{cbb link}} and {{cfb link}} to create {{nba link}}.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- The thing is I don't want the NBA to be associated with it. I can put {{NBA Year|2009|team=Philadelphia Flyers|title=Flyers}} and nobody would notice without looking at the code. —LOL T/C 20:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Create two versions. {{team season link}} and {{team season x link}} for seasons contained within a single year (MLB, MLS, and NFL) and seasons crossing years (NBA, NHL, other winter sports).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- The thing is I don't want the NBA to be associated with it. I can put {{NBA Year|2009|team=Philadelphia Flyers|title=Flyers}} and nobody would notice without looking at the code. —LOL T/C 20:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- It would be consistent with {{cbb link}} and {{cfb link}} to create {{nba link}}.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:00, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, but actually I'm thinking that we should create a separate template for this (if one doesn't already exist) because other leagues and other sports can use this functionality. Any idea for a name? —LOL T/C 19:44, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Juwan Howard is all cleaned up thanks to you. However, do you understand the instructions at User_talk:AnomieBOT#New_template_duty_for_NBA?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes that is good. Then once it goes live, we will need to instruct the bot that checks {{cbb link}} and {{cfb link}} for the new pages to check up on this link too.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- How about "{{NBA Year|1994|team=Washington Bullets|title=Bullets}}" → "Bullets"? —LOL T/C 22:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- What I want is for {{NBA Year|1994|Washington Bullets|Bullets}} to link to Washington Bullets until 1994-95 Washington Bullets season existed with a blue link for Bullets.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
How about {{team season}} and {{team season2}}? —LOL T/C 23:47, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
- That is fine or you could put link on the end to make them more similar to cbb and cfb. It does not matter to me either way.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delay in my response; I've spent some time thinking about changing how it works and expanding its use. Regarding the naming, I don't really want to put "link" at the end because I think it's already implicit in "team season" (whereas "cbb" alone only implies college basketball). Regarding how it works, I want it to check for the existence of an article iff the check parameter is non-empty; this is so that the template doesn't have to be replaced once the target article is created. I also want to make shortcuts for the most common forms of link text. Examples:
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets}} → 1994–95
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets|START}} → 1994
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets|END}} → 1995
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets|TEAM}} → Washington Bullets
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets|NAME}} → Bullets
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets|foo bar}} → foo bar
- {{team season2|1994|Washington Bullets|TEAM|check=y}} → Bullets
- Thoughts? —LOL T/C 21:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand the check=y options. If you make any changes in the next day, let me know because Juwan Howard is going on the main page (DYK section) in about 26 hours.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- If check=y, then the template will check for the existence of the article before setting a link target. If I make any changes to {{NBA Year}}, then I'll try to fix all the articles that'll be affected. —LOL T/C 21:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- O.K., but shouldn't the rest blue link to Washington Bullets?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- If check=y, then the template will check for the existence of the article before setting a link target. If I make any changes to {{NBA Year}}, then I'll try to fix all the articles that'll be affected. —LOL T/C 21:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- I don't understand the check=y options. If you make any changes in the next day, let me know because Juwan Howard is going on the main page (DYK section) in about 26 hours.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry for the delay in my response; I've spent some time thinking about changing how it works and expanding its use. Regarding the naming, I don't really want to put "link" at the end because I think it's already implicit in "team season" (whereas "cbb" alone only implies college basketball). Regarding how it works, I want it to check for the existence of an article iff the check parameter is non-empty; this is so that the template doesn't have to be replaced once the target article is created. I also want to make shortcuts for the most common forms of link text. Examples:
Naming convention
I have started a requested moves on Mark Davis (NBA) and Mark Davis (1980s NBA player) to be moved to Mark Davis (basketball, born 1973) and Mark Davis (basketball, born 1963) respectively, because I think they need to be moved to a more common disambiguating method similar to other NBA/basketball players, similar with Bobby Jones (basketball, born 1951) and Bobby Jones (basketball, born 1984) or many other examples. Please have a look at their talk page and make your opinions there. Thanks. — Martin tamb (talk) 17:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Infobox help
I need help to make the parameter anthem, halftime, network and announcers in Template:Infobox NBAAllStarGame optional. There are a lot of blank spaces on the infobox, because some of the older All-Star games did not have these information. I tried to made the change myself, but the infobox codes are really not my specialty. Thanks in advance. — Martin tamb (talk) 17:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- Done, it should work.—Chris!c/t 23:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- That was quick, thanks a lot! — Martin tamb (talk) 05:04, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
Can I get some people to keep an eye on the Kirk Hinrich article? According to some reports, the Bulls have a deal in place to trade him to the Wizards, but nothing is official yet. Indeed, the Wizards can't take on Hinrich's contract until after July 8. However, that doesn't stop IPs from saying that Hinrich is a Wizard. Zagalejo^^^ 22:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
- You might be able to get some help at WP:AN or WP:RPP.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:15, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- Also Morris Peterson, who is expected to be traded, but the trade cannot be finalized until July 8 as well. — Martin tamb (talk) 07:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- I watchlisted both articles.—Chris!c/t 21:25, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks! Zagalejo^^^ 22:54, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- I watchlisted both articles.—Chris!c/t 21:25, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
- Also Morris Peterson, who is expected to be traded, but the trade cannot be finalized until July 8 as well. — Martin tamb (talk) 07:41, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
New page List of NBA Free Agents in 2010
Anyone think this new page has any business being on Wikipedia? Is it encyclopedic? Worth keeping? I see no similar articles for previous years, which doesn't mean this article is wrong, but it gives me an idea that it's not really needed. — Timneu22 · talk 14:21, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
- I commented at Talk:List of NBA Free Agents in 2010--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)