Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Metal/Archives/2014/September

Need opinions on the crossover thrash page.

A user has been deleting several bands from the crossover thrash page. His only reason for doing so is that "he was there" and he only requires sources for bands that he personally doesn't consider to be crossover. Apart from one of the bands I tried restoring (Lawnmower Deth, who are generally considered as crossover on a bunch of sites, but I couldn't find any "reliable" sources for them), all the other bands have been referred to as crossover on reliable sites like Allmusic and Blabbermouth. Despite adding sources, the user continues to delete the bands claiming that the sources are pushing my "POV" and has no interest in discussing it on the talk page. I would like someone to step in here. I'd particularly like someone to confirm whether my sources for Hellbastard and Dead horse are good enough. Thanks SonOfPlisskin (talk) 00:41, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

No actually I told you on my talk page "I was there". I told you they have no reliable sources as as per their wiki articles didn't list themselves as "crossover thrash" . I also went to every band in the list over about 3 Hours . also the one band you said has a source the source is their Own Website which is Not a reliable source . Then what you/this user did was look up sources to back his/her point of view add it to the article and then type that "its sourced" . For his / her own POV . Such as one site that quotes band camp another unreliable "source" . I removed many bands in a mass clean-up to make the list pure . "punk Rock" bands aren't crossover thrash and "thrash metal" bands aren't crossover thrash . Dead Horse and hell bastard are not Crossover Thrash . This person should never lie being everything is there as it was . Able to be accessed and read . A reader deserves to use the article and any article as a knowledge tool . It should be pure and honest . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 05:40, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

What POV? All those bands are generally considered crossover and I found sources to back that up, because you were deleting them. Again, you mention the bandcamp thing which isn't true. They linked to bandcamp, but there's no quote from it. And there was another source which you seem to conveniently ignore. Even ANUS considers deadhorse to be crossover and they're just as anal retentive (pun intended) as you about the whole "thrash/thrash metal" thing. Not all thrash metal bands are crossover, but most crossover bands are thrash metal (again, crossover = thrash metal + hardcore). Carnivore is also thrash metal. D.R.I. were thrash metal starting from Crossover (they were hardcore before that). Suicidal Tendencies were thrash metal for a while after Join the Army (also hardcore before that, but with a few metal influences even early on). Nuclear Assault shouldn't even be considered crossover, when they're straight up thrash metal with a few punky tendencies. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 11:48, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It would be best if each band on that list was referenced in that list (even if referenced above, for exactly this situation). While I'm not going to delve into each specific band or source, sources like Allmusic and Blabbermouth, along with other sources listed at WP:ALBUM/SOURCES (while this is not an album article, all the sources listed there pass WP:RS) or other reliable sources should be good. Bandcamp, Last.fm, Metal-Archives, etc are unreliable, and a band's own website is at best questionable, and probably should not be used either. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 19:11, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

All the bands I'm looking to add have reliable sources backing them up. I'll get rid of the SputnikMusic bios. They're not taken from the Bandcamp pages like the IP claims, but the Hirax one looks similar to the Wikipedia article (and it's hard to tell who copied whom, though the Wiki article had a similar opening paragraph since 2005.) I'll add Hellbastard and Dead Horse back along with the sources, and try to find reliable sources for the other bands on the list. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 21:45, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

For instance what this user above is doing is searching things to back up their POV. While there are Just as many that contradict what they are finding as sources , in 30 second search heres one, Hell Bastard from Death Metal .org http://www.deathmetal.org/news/sadistic-metal-reviews-01-12-14/attachment/hellbastard-_-heading-for-internal-darkness/ I feel this person may work for earache or metal blade records as most of the bands he pushes have something to do with one of those labels or both 68.39.152.45 (talk) 21:50, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

hell hammer is a crust band as per this wiki, with sources , without Anyones POV http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Crust_punk just about Guarantee he changes this Article to meet his .her POV. 68.39.152.45 (talk) 22:03, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm concerned here that there is a lack of good faith. For example, 68.39.152.45, you removed a reference to Allmusic's page on Hirax, but in your edit summary you said "you were told to not use the bands webpage" (which it didn't). Claims such as "just about Guarantee he changes this Article to meet his .her POV." are also not in good faith. Also, unless a source explicitly states "[Band name] is not crossover thrash", a source not saying "crossover thrash" is not a contradiction.

SonOfPlisskin, you claim that each band is sourced, but in your edit here, only four bands were actually sourced. Each band needs to be sourced to be included on that list.

Instead of edit warring on the article, in the discussion that SonOfPlisskin started on Talk:Crossover thrash, each band in that list (plus any bands that any user thinks should be added) should be listed, and sources calling that band "crossover thrash" (or "crossover") listed with that band name. If the reliability of a source is questioned, any user can raise their doubts then. By the end of this process, every band in that list should have a reference from a reliable source next to its name. MrMoustacheMM (talk) 22:29, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I meant that all the bands that I wanted to readd to the list are sourced. I was actually going to eventually add sources for the other bands, but not all today, as I don't have that much free time on my hands, and finding sources even for obvious bands like S.O.D. is more difficult than I thought it would be. I was in the middle of adding more sources in fact. The sources I added for the bands I was concerned with were immediately available to me and so I started with those. If you want, I'll take off all the bands and move it to the talk page. The IP is obviously not going to cooperate, and things are going to be extremely difficult if this keeps up. Not only is he using deathmetal.org (a new version of ANUS, which will never be considered reliable), but is also actually using the sidebar genre fields in AMG to support his view, when the guidelines say to avoid using those (not to mention that they don't have a "crossover" label). The Hirax bio clearly states otherwise. I don't see how I'm doing anything wrong by trying to find sources (which I'm only doing because the IP said there were no sources). Deleting my Allmusic link and claiming it was a band page is also going too far. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 23:12, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I added the bands to the talk page, including bands that I think should be added, like you said, but the IP keeps deleting the ones he doesn't agree with (ironically, some the only sourced ones thus far). I wanted to add sources to the other bands, but I'm going to wait until the IP user settles down and stops deleting things. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 12:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

take a look at this users 5 month old talk page . The only thing this user ever does is Argue, make personal attacks, threats and if this user doesn't get their way , goes to Articles to change the genres that have been there for Years in some cases just to have them on a list , that they don't qualify or meet the criteria for . This user lies constantly and has no history of working with ANYONE . What this user is trying to do is Change Genres and set up a list on the talk page as if its Legitimate . Its not . Everything thats WRONG Will Always be deleted By Someone eventually . I have no personal "beef" with any of those groups , This user made some serious errors in their rush to change articles to their POV so they would qualify and meet criteria for inclusion. Those errors are Obvious to any Experienced editor . I will reveal them as this/after this is resolved . Also if someone asks me to I will show them . Also the bands own Facebook pages don't even claim they are "crossover thrash" . This persons talk page with all their arguing and on the talk pages at my ip is proof this person doesn't work with Anyone . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 16:17, 23 September 2014 (UTC)68.39.152.45 (talk) 16:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Heres where it was said to not use bands personal website to back up claims "and a band's own website is at best questionable, and probably should not be used either." Unless its being interpreted wrong . What flags does it raise when a person goes and changes Articles to say what they want it to , just for purpose of having it in a "list" . It raises a lot of flags to me . Look at their 5 month old talk page . Ive moved a few times Ive been here for over 10 years . I can go back through pages Ive helped to edit and Prove this . This is the first time in about 13-15 Years that Ive ever had an experience like what this person does with every editor who "dares" Help an Article Towards the Truth . These bands many all have either earache records or metal blade records, or both as the one common factor . Esp the ones this user gets all heated over 68.39.152.45 (talk) 16:28, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

There's only one person who was arguing with me on my talk page, and he's a sockpuppet of another user who was previously blocked (two times). Stop trying to throw people off. It has nothing to do with this situation. Your talk page ain't pretty to look at either. Deleting the bands on the talk page isn't how this is supposed to work. I'm not using a band's personal website, so I don't know why you're even bringing it up. And you have a problem with personal websites, but no problem with Facebook pages? SonOfPlisskin (talk) 16:48, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

No one said use the Facebook as a reference but even in the Own bands "hands" THEY Don't even consider themselves as you went and speedily changed their genres and articles, but made some serious Errors, I noticed . The talk page from the page which I am typing from is there for all to see. You argue with me at the talk page I type from and on your own talk page and have a history of edit warring . Why do you never wait for someone to mediate and continue to engage about this . It is what it is, an Article should be Accurate and Helpful to any reader or person who seeks Knowledge . Any one who doesn't support your POV you freak out on . How did this start I cleaned up about 150 bands and you took it upon yourself to argue on the talk page telling me things like "you're not going to listen to what" I say , and that I "can barely speak english" , also saying my only reasoning was "I was there" . You kept trying to define, in your POV what each article means . Even what you wrote on about crossover thrash and what you think is "thrash" is contradicted by the article itself , maybe you would have read it First . You also typed that "thrashcore" and "crossover thrash" are THE SAME THING. If you read or ever read Both Articles like I have for like 8-10 years you would notice what the article states are the Differences and how one is NOT the other . Also they have two separate Articles for that reason . They are not the same . If you don't have a clear understanding what the genres Entail why bother arguing your own POV. All you want to do is argue. Did you ever think maybe someone has to read this and maybe there is already enough for an editor to make judgements . You keep adding More and More and More and More . Even when you say "I don't have time today" you still have time to argue your point . Your point, Your POV . You can't seem to give it a rest until an editor reviews it . You seem Too Overly concerned that YOUR POV is "heard" . What do you think is going to happen if we just DROPPED IT ALREADY . Even if we had 26 Hours go by until this is reviewed Fully . Is one of the bands going to break up if you can't include them on a "list" . Give it a rest . Its been three days . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 17:14, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Notice that I didn't add the bands back on the main page. I added them to the talk page for discussion, as was suggested here. If you have an issue with a band there, mention it, and if people reach an agreement that the sources are not good enough, then it won't make it to the main page until better sources are provided. Why are you so interested in making sure no one is allowed to discuss those bands? I never said thrashcore and crossover are the same thing. I said thrash metal/hardcore and crossover are the same thing. And it takes two to edit war. You've followed me to every article I've edited, deleting sources because you don't agree with it. You're failing to understand that just because one source says something is X, it doesn't mean that you can ignore other sources saying something is Y. I've even added the "speed metal" back to the Ludichrist page (even though the AMG article most likely meant thrash, as is mentioned in the actual reviews there). You keep deleting my edits and don't give me enough time to properly do things. You mention that there's enough for others to make judgments, so why not let them decide whether the bands should be added to the article or not instead of trying to make sure n one ever sees those bands. You're missing the whole point of adding that list to the talk page. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 17:33, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

"What do you think is going to happen if we just DROPPED IT ALREADY . Even if we had 26 Hours go by until this is reviewed Fully . Is one of the bands going to break up if you can't include them on a "list" ". Give it a rest . Its been three days ." Do you think that editors aren't smart enough to go through the contribs and see there is activity on the talk page at crossover thrash ? Let things run their course . If you know how . You never give it a rest . Try this word , "Patience" . 68.39.152.45 (talk) 17:45, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

"Patience" and yet you always keep replying and responding to my edits yourself. Again, it takes two to edit war. You have no reason to delete the bands from the talk pages. How is it going to affect anything? I'm leaving it alone for now. Your actions speak for themselves. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 17:52, 23 September 2014 (UTC)