Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/archive 21

I don't how this article is notable?

Keishinkan is this style of karate notable? It doesn't seem to have any sources? Dwanyewest (talk) 08:27, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Probably not - take it to AfD if you can't find better sources.Peter Rehse (talk) 08:53, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I have heard about it before. Not completely insignificant karate organization. jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 18:24, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Kage-ryū

Hi, folks. Could I trouble someone (or many) to check out the recent big chuck of text added to this article? It appears to be copyrighted to me but I could be mistaken. If someone wants to attempt to engage the editor on their talk page that'd be great, too. I've tried, but either they're not reading my posts or they're totally missing the point. You might want to hurry, the other editor is already at 3RR. Tiderolls 19:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I will try - I met him a few years ago in Japan and (if this really is Colin) we should be able to get him to understand. Certainly his topic is very interesting.Peter Rehse (talk) 21:00, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for informing. I know Colin by reputation (if this really is Colin), and he is a real source for koryu articles. jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 21:04, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

These articles are a mess

Japan Karate Federation, Iran Taekwondo Association, Asian Taekwondo Union and Sports Taekwondo Australia I feel are in various need of help I have tried to improve some articles by adding sources so any help would appreciated as almost all 4 had no sources per to my intervention for years. Dwanyewest (talk) 04:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Is it worth mentioning karate regarding Ryoichi Sasakawa?

Ryoichi Sasakawa was a founding member of the WKF do you think I should enter it on his wikipedia page? Dwanyewest (talk) 02:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd say that you can enter whatever you want on a WP page provided it's reliably sourced. Papaursa (talk) 04:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Should Keysi Fighting Method be seperated?

[1][2][3] Does anyone think that Keysi Fighting Method should be seperate as I think there is enough stuff for a separate articles. Dwanyewest (talk) 04:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

This article was separate but was merged to Batman Begins as the result of an AfD discussion. All of the sources you mention prominently feature the fact that it was used in the Batman movie which makes it difficult to claim it's notable on its own. Papaursa (talk) 04:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't get it?

I don't see how Paul Herbert (karate champion) is notable under any criteria? Dwanyewest (talk) 10:04, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I have to say you have been coming here often enough that you shouldn't have to ask so often - if you look above it seems you post questions the most. Go with your gut feeling and if you think he is not notable enough for Wikipedia take it to AfD. In this case the sources are pretty much from his own organization which does not make a good keep case. AfD not only helps delete cruft but also serves the purpose of clarifying borderline cases with a Keep vote acting as sort of protection.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I would suggest you put it up for AfD since I don't see any documented evidence to support notability (like what international titles he won). I don't see the harm in putting up questionable articles for discussion--they'll either be found not notable and removed or someone will come along with additional information and documentation to improve the article. Either way, WP gets improved. Papaursa (talk) 19:46, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

I put a request on the article's talk page requesting info on the titles the article claims he won. Dwayne, what's keeping you from putting this article up for AfD? Why ask if you're going to ignore everyone's comments?Mdtemp (talk) 22:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

WikiProject X is live!

Hello everyone!

You may have received a message from me earlier asking you to comment on my WikiProject X proposal. The good news is that WikiProject X is now live! In our first phase, we are focusing on research. At this time, we are looking for people to share their experiences with WikiProjects: good, bad, or neutral. We are also looking for WikiProjects that may be interested in trying out new tools and layouts that will make participating easier and projects easier to maintain. If you or your WikiProject are interested, check us out! Note that this is an opt-in program; no WikiProject will be required to change anything against its wishes. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thank you!

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Harej (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Kombatan

I was looking at this article and thinking about redirecting it to Modern Arnis. The Kombatan article's references are mainly primary and I don't see what the difference is. It looks more like a split between founders and the desire to each head their own organization than separate martial arts. Any comments or suggestions?Mdtemp (talk) 20:14, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

It could be argued that the article lacks the independent sources to meet GNG. However, I think Kombatan is well known and I'd be inclined to just leave it. Papaursa (talk) 20:11, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

It needs a good clean-up. Seems a little heavy on lists of grandmasters and such.Peter Rehse (talk) 20:46, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

I sense an edit war

Tim Stephens (karateka) has legit information deleted even though it is sourced by the BBC. Dwanyewest (talk) 20:31, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I've reverted to an older version which includes the BBC link. But I'd caution you to avoid edit-warring yourself in order to avoid WP:BOOMERANG if you choose to take this matter to admin. Simonm223 (talk) 21:02, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

The editwarrior in question claims not to know how to use talkpages. I've reverted again (my 2nd) and advised them that I will report them for WP:3RR violations if they revert further. This is getting ridiculous. (Just to be safe I checked the BBC source and it is reported accurately and with restraint in the article.) Simonm223 (talk) 21:17, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

There's a discussion happening now about the Tim Stephens page on the BLP noticeboard. I suspect there are probably interested parties here who'd want to participate. Simonm223 (talk) 23:49, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Fletcher Thornton

I found this article and was thinking about putting it up for deletion. The coverage seems to all be about the accusations of abuse against him and his resignation from his judo post. Does this fall under WP:BLP1E or not, since his alleged actions were not a single event (but his resignation was)?Mdtemp (talk) 15:18, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

You can bring it up for deletion if you like. I don't agree. His alleged activity did bring about major changes in Judo. There is a good amount of information about him on news [4] and books [5]CrazyAces489 (talk) 16:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

It is pretty hard to see how this is more than WP:BLP1E but if the event really caused major changes in Judo (even if that was localized in the US) than a case could be made to keep. Not sure what those major changes are - not covered in the article. This is very similar to the above question (I sense an edit war) where any claim to notability is due more to a detestable activity than inherent notability. Peter Rehse (talk) 17:05, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

The allegations were about 20 years of inappropriate behavior. The changes were that background checks were required of all individuals to attain their black belt in the United States. [6] He did serve as an international referee, as well official for USA Judo as well as the USJA.CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:12, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't oppose a merge into USA Judo. CrazyAces489 (talk) 17:45, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

That article is about the AAU and there's no mention of Fletcher. Do you have a good source that says that Fletcher's case was responsible for that rule? If so, I'd consider a merge.Mdtemp (talk) 17:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

He was on the USA Judo board of directors. Please use google, some of the answers can be found for yourself on them. [7]CrazyAces489 (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Shotokan Karate Union

Could someone from WikiProject Martial Arts take a look at Shotokan Karate Union and assess it? It's a new article and was created by a first timer. There's quite a few martial arts magazines being cited as references, but I haven't been able to find any links to any of them at all. I'm not even sure if the information for the sources is entirely correct. I've tried doing as much technical clean up as I could, but I just am not familiar enough with the subject matter to know if what is written is true. Perhaps one of the members of this WikiProject has access to the sources listed and can verify if what is being cited is properly supported. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 13:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks pretty clean - I added an Orphan tag. What the article needs is a bit of expansion on how wide spread it is. From reading the article it comes across as UK centered but delving into the web site that is not so clear.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:36, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for taking a look PRehnse. Are you familiar with any of the magazines being cited? Do you know if their names and publishers are correct? I've tried to Google them, but I haven't had much success. - Marchjuly (talk) 00:07, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Santander or Glasgow dispute?

1987 European Karate Championships was it taken in Santander or Glasgow as there seems to be a argument about where it took place. Dwanyewest (talk) 23:08, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Please help review a submission at AFC

Please help review Draft:Kaisai no genri which has been submitted to AFC. If you don't know how to, or don't wish to do a full formal review, please just post comments on the Talk page to guide the regular AFC reviewers, most of whom have no specific knowledge of the topic. Thanks Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:58, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, the article has been accepted and some initial cleanup has been done - now it's up to this project to apply the final polish - "wax on, wax off". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Mingtangquan

Dear martial arts experts: Is this old AfC submission about a notable topic? Or should it be deleted as a stale draft?—Anne Delong (talk) 12:12, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Anne the reason it was declined I think are still there and the references would have to be fixed up. One of them is to the Baidu encylopedia which is the Chinese wikipedia which has the same issue as our wiki with respect to reliable sources. Mingtang itself has a historical/political meaning and I really am not sure is related to a school of boxing. Finally Chinese martial arts are pretty well covered and one would think that with the claim of importance it would already be here. Not the best reasons I know but unless someone comes up with better information - I would delete this as stale.Peter Rehse (talk) 16:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Peter Rehse. Since I don't have the knowledge to address the problems myself, I will leave it alone.—Anne Delong (talk) 02:04, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Israeli Jiu-Jitsu fighters

I saw today that on the Hebrew version of Wikipedia, someone created a page for a non-notable Israeli Jiu-Jitsu fighter (I have a feeling it was written by himself), which prompt me to check the English version and see if this was the case here. I didn't find him and only saw an article for Ido Pariente. Having not enough knowledge of the sport to judge if Ido is notable enough for an article, I wanted to ask the Martial arts project community for assistance. In the lead it states that he won the Victory Fighting Championship Lightweight Champion in 2001, Pankration World Champion in 2003, Desert Combat Lightweight titleholder in 2007 however Victory Fighting Championship and the Desert Combat and Pankration championships do not even have an article, which usually means they are not notable in them-self. The references (2) for those awards are taken from QA with him, so not a reliable source. I also went over the first 8 or so references and most just mention him (as in he was also there), and those articles are not about him at all. The others might be better, but I didn't check those. If those awards are not notable, and/or no real source is found to verify them, is the rest of the article enough to warrant him an article?--Gonnym (talk) 17:01, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Not sure what you are asking. The Ido article survived an AfD debate but not on his notability according to WP:MMANOT but rather on the level of coverage. If the level of coverage is not as strong as the AfD suggests - then perhaps a new AfD should be considered.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:42, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

What I was asking is if the championships he was in are notable. If they aren't notable then coverage about a person isn't enough for an article.--Gonnym (talk) 17:52, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

And as I said he does not meet WP:MMANOT which is based on the level of MMA competition he fought at. His survival was based entirely on coverage which if you think is not enough for an article warrants a new AfD debate.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:59, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I see. On a deeper investigation, it seems most of the references come from his fights against Efrain Escudero and Jake Shields which are notable fighters and do not focus on him at all except mentioning he is fighting them (with one reference being this quote: Question: You are fighting a guy, Ido Pariente. What do you know about him? Shields: I do not know too much), at least 3 links are broken and at least 2 are QA with him which do not count as a reliable source. This really seems to be a collection of places his name was mentioned which add nothing to the article.--Gonnym (talk) 18:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

• Gonnym -- you're missing something that is core to WP's notability criteria. GNG is the key to determining whether x is notable. Substantial coverage in reliable sources. For whatever. It does not have to be for something that is itself notable. So if you were to receive substantial RS coverage for blowing your nose, and for doing so over a period of events, that would qualify for GNG. The guideline -- and this is important -- is GNG.

MMANOT is an essay, not a guideline. It does not rise to the level of wp notability criterion guideline, as we have with some other sports.

And even there -- those sport-specific guidelines are less significant than GNG -- an athlete in that sport need not meet them. They are only indicia that the athlete likely meets GNG, which is the core principle we rely on. Epeefleche (talk) 20:24, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Recent changes to the graphics for Template: Medal

There is a template talk page discussion regarding the graphics used for medalists in infobox medals tables occurring at Template talk:Medal#‎Changing from gold/silver/bronze to 1/2/3. As this discussion is within the scope of WP:Martial arts, you are invited to make your comments on the recent graphics changes there. Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:53, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Mosey King

Is he notable? I don't think he meets WP:NBOX but is being the boxing coach at Yale for 46 years enough to show notability? Mdtemp (talk) 15:50, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I think so. User:Dcw2003 has been creating a number of historical boxers who may not strictly meet WP:NBOX but they are usually quite well written and sourced, and I think meet WP:GNG. More specifically a 46 year tenure as boxing coach at a major athletic powerhouse such as Yale with the football cross-over, makes the subject quite interesting. Head boxing coach at Yale not so notable but 46 years - that is exceptional.Peter Rehse (talk) 16:06, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I still question his notability, but that's why I post here--to get other opinions on things I'm not sure of.Mdtemp (talk) 20:15, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Tao-liang Tan listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Tao-liang Tan to be moved to Tan Tao-liang. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 23:18, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Two propositions for more helpful categorization and navigation

The "Internal" label on the navbox Template talk:Martial arts is a questionable choice here for several reasons, though thinking about it led me to a category proposal.

1. It's a WP:NPOV and WP:NOR problem, labeling and categorizing several martial arts as if especially defined by the spiritual concept of Chi/Qi, an "energy" science can't find any evidence for, and which as a spiritual belief is a part of most if not all Eastern martial arts anyway.
2. It doesn't correspond to a Wikipedia category. This template should mirror the WP categorization of martial arts articles. And this may mean that we need additional categories other than geographical ones, if the conceptual categorizations in this template (or perhaps better ones) are thought useful.
3. The word "Internal" is ambiguous in this context, following on other categorizations like "Striking", "Grappling", "Weapons", etc., and is easily mistaken for having something to do with targeting of the internal organs. A review of the categorization in the template suggests that they're too arbitrary. There's nothing very systematic about how these groupings have been selected, and many entries in one could/should also be in some of the others. So, it's not terribly helpful for navigation, despite being a navbox.

Aside from these concerns, it occurs to me that something is missing, both in this template and in the category structure, a place to put essentially or entirely non-combative martial arts and outgrowths of martial arts. At the very least, Tai chi, Parkour, and Freerunning go in there, and I would think somewhere we have an article (or more than one) on theatrical/show martial arts adaptations, such as used in Asian theatre, and modern movies, that are in a sense the exact opposite of regular martial arts, developed to use the traditional techniques to carefully avoid actual injury. There are some forms of dance and exercise training without much or any actual combat, but which were developed from actual martial arts, and they'd fit this category too. Something like Category:Non-combative martial arts would be the simplest name, but might be too limiting or dispute-generating (is parkour "really" a martial art? is the cardio kickboxing craze?) Something more flexible like Category:Non-combative martial arts techniques is probably better. Even Zazen qualifies (it's often thought of as "Zen meditation" but if you've ever tried it, you know that it's physically quite demanding, as well as requiring a great deal of mental discipline, and is not particularly meditative at all, except in particular forms. Yoga perhaps qualifies; I don't know enough about its history to know if it has any martial training connections of any kind, though I would be surprised if it did not. Maybe there's a better category name we can come up with that doesn't actually include the word "martial"? I'm not sure how to best encompass "physical disciplines that are akin to martial arts without actually fighting".

Several of the things listed under "Internal" in the navbox would not qualify for this category; I'm not suggesting a terminological swap. For the navbox, the problem is that the "Internal" categorization is both confused and confusing, and the template's general labeling rationale is unclear and not optimal.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Violation Detection - EranBot Project

A new copy-paste detection bot is now in general use on English Wikipedia. Come check it out at the EranBot reporting page. This bot utilizes the Turnitin software (ithenticate), unlike User:CorenSearchBot that relies on a web search API from Yahoo. It checks individual edits rather than just new articles. Please take 15 seconds to visit the EranBot reporting page and check a few of the flagged concerns. Comments welcome regarding potential improvements. These likely copyright violations can be searched by WikiProject categories. Use "control-f" to jump to your area of interest (if such a copyvio is present). --Lucas559 (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Notability opinions Draft:Spyros Rigos

Header says it all really - user has requested someone to take a look at this draft. Opinions gratefully received. --ℕ ℱ 12:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Based on recent judo bio articles this one would not survive if taken to AfD. High rank has never been criteria enough.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:08, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Peter that's really helpful. I assume the GNG would also not be sufficient based on it being 'routine' coverage? --ℕ ℱ 13:16, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Actually the article is typical of many CV-esque attempts that just don't cut it notability wise.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, understood. --ℕ ℱ 13:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Is Koshiro Tanaka the real deal?

Is Koshiro Tanaka a notable karateka under the criteria as he was the only Japanese fighter in the War against the Soviets.[8],[9][10],[11][12]. Dwanyewest (talk) 09:03, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything that makes him notable as a karateka. I'm inclined to say running off to Pakistan to fight the Soviets is not sufficient to make him notable, any more than the people joining ISIS/ISIL gain notability for that act--even though some of them do receive press coverage. Papaursa (talk) 02:35, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Sadaki Nakabayashi

I came across this article and am wondering about his notability. I'm not seeing a lot of significant independent coverage. We usually need more than a high rank (although at least his wasn't self-awarded). How significant are his books? I didn't see independent support of his significance in teaching or spreading the art, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. Papaursa (talk) 17:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Wang Xiangzhai and Kenichi Sawai

I came across these two articles and was thinking about putting them both up for AfD, but first I wanted to get opinions from people who know more about Chinese martial arts than I do. I think both of these fail GNG as written, but Wang looks like he has more of a reputation. Actually I first looked at Kenichi's article and that led me to Wang's.Mdtemp (talk) 18:13, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Judo do

A new user, Aikikai45 has been trying to introduce an article about "Judo do", and has been struggling owing to language difficulties and unwillingness to take advice. A draft has been created by other users at Draft:Judo do, and when Aikikai45 comes off a short block for disruptive editing they have been invited to improve that, with the intention that when complete it shall be posted and listed at AfD to get a community decision about whether this variant is notable enough for a stand-alone article. Any advice or assistance is welcome. There has been some discussion at Talk:Judo. JohnCD (talk) 09:29, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Merger proposals

Anyone interested in 540 kick and 360 Crescent kick have merger proposals anyone interested should offer their opinions as it's being stagnant for a while. Dwanyewest (talk) 18:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Is this term legitimate?

Is Sport Karate a legitimate term to create an article I found some articles if an article is to be made see here [13][14][15][16][17][18][19] Dwanyewest (talk) 02:08, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Sure its legitimate but not really of stand alone importance. It would probably be best served as a REDIRECT to Karate#Sport which covers it well.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:54, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

I did create the redirect Peter suggests. jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 17:00, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks - a search of articles has the term show up a number of times.Peter Rehse (talk) 17:05, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

article for deletion reviews

In case anyone is interested, two martial arts articles are being discussion at WP:DRV. The AfD discussions can be found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sadaki Nakabayashi and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jose Landi. Papaursa (talk) 02:22, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Was Irina Mazepa a wushu champion?

Irina Mazepa is she notable as its being claimed she was a 5x wushu champion? Dwanyewest (talk) 01:47, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I can find no reliable sources that show she was a wushu champion. The only sources I could find are her own listings and a promotional article from OneFC that is currently promoting her. Neither of those sources mention what organization;s titles she won. Obviously if reliable sources show she's a world champion from a widely recognized wushu organization, she'd be notable. Papaursa (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Editing Paula Pareto

Hi, I'm trying to tidy up Paula Pareto. After a statement that she used a technique called a "contra-hipe" there is a user-note saying "- i don't know better English word for "kontrachvat" (Gaeshi) in Czech". I know nothing about judo and was wondering if anyone here knew the correct name for this technique. Red Fiona (talk) 01:00, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Kontrachvat = kaeshi waza = "counter technique." Essentially it is any move designed to counter a specific move of an opponent. I would just call it a "counter". QuiteUnusual (talk) 08:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Red Fiona (talk) 23:26, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Can a fresh set of eyes do a fairly quick quality assessment?

I was recently pondering how much time and effort it might take to bring the Brazilian jiu-jitsu article up to GA status, but I noticed in recent years it was downgraded from a B-class to a C-class, despite at least superficial appearances suggesting that the article's quality has improved with time, not gotten worse. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone might have interest in doing a quick assessment of the article's current quality status, to give, if not a more objective basis for it becoming a good article, at least a more quantifiable one. It would obviously be great it if seems to be an A-class (not holding my breath on that however), B-class would suggest it feasible, and if it's really a C-class article, I'll turn my efforts to more realistic endeavors. Please and thanks! Buddy23Lee (talk) 15:06, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

That was downgraded from B way back in October 2013 with no explanation by User:Srich32977 who may chime in. I suspect it was because of an argument going on at the time about too much information about individual fighters rather than, the way it should be as is now, a general article on BJJ. I am happy to (and did) bump it up to a B as it stands now but what could create push back is a number of sections have no references. Buddy23Lee, that is something that would have to be addressed before you move to GA but I don't think the overall effort to gain promotion to GA will be that much. The article does a good job of covering the topic and is generally well-referencd.Peter Rehse (talk) 15:45, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank ya Mr. Rehse! That is fairly encouraging. I suppose I'll give it a day or so to see if that editor or any others want to comment and then maybe start looking at getting some of those cites or parsing it down some. I almost forgot that the Aikido article is an FA, which blows my mind and gives me some optimism that GA is attainable by more of our decent project pages. I should probably look at how that was accomplished as well. Thanks again! Buddy23Lee (talk) 22:28, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

It seemed that when Aikido went through the FA process all sorts of people and comments came out of the woodwork - at times it was not pleasant. GA review is a good first step and I really do think that when those references are added it should not be that difficult. I will help.Peter Rehse (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2016 (UTC)

Content dispute on Uechi-ryū

Uechi-ryū (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

See also: Wikipedia:Help desk § Please end an "Edit War"

Hi martial arts Wikipedians. There seems to be an active content dispute on this article. Personally, I have no idea who is in the right or wrong over it. I believe it needs an experienced neutral editor with some knowledge and experience of the subject to take a look. I've given general dispute resolution advice and some policy reminders on the help desk. I don't have the subject knowledge to help them resolve the dispute or properly assess any notability issues (which I suspect could well be part of the problem). There may also be a conflict of interest with one or both of them, but I'm not certain of that. So, over to you guys and gals, if any of you feel like a challenge. Thanks. Murph9000 (talk) 07:05, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Draft:Jim Collins (Karate Champion)

Dear martial arts experts: In a few weeks this page will soon be eligible for deletion as a stale draft. It needs some de-fluffing, but I don't want to edit it unless the subject is a notable fighter. Any opinions?—Anne Delong (talk) 00:42, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

I think he's notable because he won a karate world championship in 1984. However, my search found no significant coverage of him. I only found several passing mentions of him as a karate teacher in a local paper. I didn't even find significant coverage of his world title, just his name in a list of winners of the 1984 event in Black Belt magazine. Papaursa (talk) 01:46, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Papaursa. I added that reference to the draft. I suppose the page could be made into a redirect to the 1984 World Karate Championships article. It's harder to find information about events that occurred before the internet.

I think a redirect would be acceptable (and the best we can do with the available sources). Papaursa (talk) 03:45, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I agree. On a more general point, there are lots of "world champions" in karate because there is single governing body, rather like the situation in boxing. In fact karate is worse than boxing as there are quite literally hundreds of schools and styles many of which run championships. Winning a world championship is not that difficult and it isn't really surprising that it's difficult to find sources supporting notability of karateka. QuiteUnusual (talk) 09:24, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Editing Yuri Alvear

Hi, sorry to both you again, I'm editing Yuri Alvear and there's a cite needed template next after the statement 'placed 7th, losing very close match against Leire Iglesias'. I've got a copy of the scoresheet (http://judoinfo.com/pdf/olympics/Olympic%20Games%202008%20-70kg%20Women.pdf) but I have no idea if a score of 0000 / 0001 is close. I mean it looks close, but I know nothing about judo. Is it close? Red Fiona (talk) 21:17, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

World Head of Family Sokeship Council

Hi guys - I need some help with an article in the draftspace. Last year there was a spate of articles written by someone related to the World Head of Family Sokeship Council, which resulted in a mass of AfDs and some other issues. There were attempts to recreate the articles that grew so numerous that multiple entries had to be salted, including the one I'm posting about. I'm disclosing this up front since I know that some of you might remember one of the AfDs.

Long story short, there's an article in the draftspace at Draft:World Head of Family Sokeship Council. Cunard is asking for it to be moved to the mainspace, since he and a paid editor (another disclosure) had been working on it and they don't want the COI to trip up the article's chances, which is a pretty wise move given the history surrounding these articles.

The sourcing here is problematic, so one of the things that I want is for some of you to look for more/better sourcing, as much of this is primary, isn't actually about the organization (awards given to members outside of the organization itself), or unusable (Goodreads, a social media type site that almost anyone can edit). The best sourcing tends to be notifications that someone is getting inducted into their Hall of Fame, which can be seen as a sign of notability but it's not entirely in-depth either and these can somewhat be considered a trivial source if subjected to scrutiny.

I've asked for this to go through DRV, since I think that getting reapproved via DRV would help its chances of surviving, even if it's to go through another AfD. Given how big the organization is supposed to be, there's got to be more/better coverage out there. It'd also be good to check over the article to ensure neutrality, given that two of the primary editors have a conflict of interest. Offhand it doesn't look bad, but the more eyes looking over things the better the chances are of it standing up to scrutiny later. I have no true issue with this getting approved to the mainspace, but I want to make sure that it's as strong as it can be in order to prevent future deletion attempts. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:54, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

A lot of the problem is with the organization itself. It is in effect a self congratulatory entity that to be frank has no credibility in the marital arts world beyond its own members. You too can be a soke. It will, and has proved to be in the past, really hard to find reliable non-primary sources that speak to notability and by its nature the article is promotional.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:04, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Regardless to personal opinion about the organization, the article itself meets WP:ORGDEPTH. I have seen some blogs that discredit the organization, but nothing RS.

I am the paid editor the paid editor on the article 009o9 (talk) 21:22, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

• Aside from some of the sources not really being RS's, I see sources providing evidence that the org exists, but I'm not impressed with the significance of the third party coverage. Admittedly I haven't read all of them yet, but I'm leaning towards no. Niteshift36 (talk) 21:55, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

• Discussion opened at DRV Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2016 February 17 009o9 (talk) 22:44, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Jacob Martins Obiorah

I've been doing a bit of clean up at Jacob Martins Obiorah, who won a silver medal at the 2003 All-Africa Games and competed in the 2004 Olympics Games and 2005 World Championships, in taekwondo. He has also apparently won the Belgium and Austria Opens and the British National Championship in 2005 but I can't find sources for these. Do you know of any sources for these events? Thanks, --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 13:25, 17 March 2016 (UTC)