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Classification of wins prior to the foundation of official tours in biographies

In some biographies pre-recognised/organised tour wins have selectively been grouped together under a misleading or wrong "country/regional circuit" sub-section (e.g. Neil Coles, Peter Townsend (golfer), Peter Oosterhuis). Even worse is "Important European wins" (e.g. Peter Butler (golfer)) – which seems to be clear-cut WP:OR. On occasion such changes have been reverted but in many others, it seems to have been accepted.

Taking the case of GB&I/Europe as an example... No all-European circuit is officially recognised before 1972, and even this was only done in retrospect (unclear exactly when) because it was the first year the British PGA included most (but not all) of the big European opens in their Order of Merit; indeed there remained no unified "Order of Merit" until 1977 when the PGA TPD & CTPA merged. Although there do exist news reports using phrases like "European circuit" and "British and European circuit", it is always used in a very vague sense without any definition as to what it means or by what criteria tournaments are included – what definition/criteria are we using and is it consistent? Since players were classified on their respective Order of Merit, it seems that if there is a need to organise pre-1972 wins into their own sub-sections, "British PGA Circuit wins" or "Continental European Circuit wins" would be more appropriate.

However since it may be difficult (or impossible) to reliably source such classification of all, especially pre-Internet, tournaments (e.g. the standing of tournaments could change from one year to the next; not all major tournaments in GB&I were recognised by the PGA and not all PGA circuit events counted for the Order of Merit; some tournaments in Colombia & Venezuela were part of the Caribbean Tour rather than the South American circuit; not all tournaments in/around the Caribbean were part of the "Caribbean Tour") it may be better to revert to "Other wins" (or just "Pro wins" in the absence of any official tour wins) as remains the case on other articles. Thoughts? 51.6.161.113 (talk) 20:28, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

In fact the issue is much wider than you suggest. What wins do we include at all? Take David Shacklady who has "clocking up an impressive 200-plus victories in his professional career" of which we include exactly none (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/other-sport/golf/david-hoping-to-open-up-997983). Going through Trove you often find an Australia pro winning a few pounds in a "purse" but ignore it because it seems relatively unimportant. Original research you would call it, but in reality just a snap decision whether to include it or not. See also Ted Ray (golfer) where one author/editor was keen to include "wins" like "1903 News of the World Northern Section qualifying at Huddersfield", despite my objections. Or Peter Alliss who thinks he has "won 21 professional tournaments" (http://www.peteralliss.co.uk/about.php) , including seemingly the Sprite International where he lost a playoff but not various West of England Professional Championship and Strong Country Tournament wins. The reality is that we are just a work in progress doing the best we can. Nigej (talk) 22:02, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes, very aware of the "inclusion problem" but believe there is consensus on that. I wanted to specifically address the "labelling problem" in this discussion (therefore assuming all listed wins in any given article are there by consensus). 51.6.161.113 (talk) 23:44, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

The reality is that there is no more consensus on the "inclusion problem" than there is on the classification issue. Analysing what we do on one without considering the other makes no sense. How can we discuss how to categorise Peter Alliss's wins without considering whether to include the various West of England Professional Championship and Strong Country Tournament wins at all? How can we consider how to categorise Ted Ray's wins without discussing whether his "win" in the "1903 News of the World Northern Section qualifying at Huddersfield" should be in or not? The reality is that for modern golfers we categorise by tour because it's easy to do so. However most tours initially simply took over a pre-existing schedule. Was the 1972 French Open really any different from the 1971 French Open? Was the 1972 Martini International any different from the 1971 Martini International? No, but the 1972 events were under the new European Tour umbrella (or whatever it was called then). So categorising Brian Barnes (golfer)'s 1972 Martini International win as different in some way from Bernard Gallacher's 1971 Martini International win (categorised as an "Other win"), is, in reality, rewriting history. Nigej (talk) 07:08, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

We present wins by tour because we expect readers would want/expect the information this way. The important thing is that we are not the ones rewriting history. In terms of the events themselves those '71 & '72 wins would be the same but since the European Tour decided that '72 would be the official 1st season of the tour, for the purpose of classification by circuit/tour they are very different.
My view has generally been this: if the circuit is not easily verifiable, then "other wins" (or "all wins") is the best option. The alternatives are problematic: "country/region/continent wins" is fairly neutral but could often feel like classification just for the sake of it; "Foo PGA/Organisation Order of Merit circuit wins" would be ok if all qualifying events could be verified but they usually can't, plus many events were on and off the official circuit from year to year; "country/region/continent circuit wins" is not good when such a circuit did not formally exist; etc. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 13:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

I still think it is unsatisfactory that Brian Barnes (golfer)'s 1972 Martini International win should be in bright lights whereas Bernard Gallacher's 1971 Martini International win is in an "other wins" section, when all that's happened is that the previous PGA-run circuit has been taken over by the Tournament Players Division of the same PGA who later added the word Tour to make it sound more impressive. And anyway, it didn't become the European Tour until 1979. The logic of your argument is that we should even remove the European Tour section for those whose career starts before 1972 (like these 2), and just have a long list of wins. Saying that "we expect readers would want/expect the information this way" seems to be saying that we should apply the modern idea of a Tour and fit it retrospectively even when it didn't apply. I also don't see anything wrong with "country/region/continent wins". Categorising in this way seems like an excellent idea, much better than a long unstructured list. See http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/gary-player/?tab=achievements which has a list of "INTERNATIONAL WINS: 116". Clearly better to split it. Nigej (talk) 14:34, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

All tours that are comprised of pre-existing tournaments have the same "unsatisfactory" cut off. The only reason there are "bright lights" on WP is that some wins are presented in a pretty table and others are not – it has nothing to do with being in different sections (or the name of those sections). Indeed, select pre-tour wins have been tabulated in a few articles (including the examples given at the start) – the problem is that the section headers are generally inaccurate and misleading, or a subjective opinion on the importance of the events.
We should simply be providing information that the reader expects, in a consistent (as far as practical) format that does not mislead. There is clear consensus for organising by recognised organised tour/circuit where this can be verified, and this has not changed. The pre-existing consensus for the remainder was "other wins", but it seems that that consensus no longer exists. 51.6.161.113 (talk) 18:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Min Woo Lee

Yet again we have a European Tour winner with a somewhat confusing name. Obviously since he's Australian the normal rules for Korean names don't apply. Sources (including his own Instagram account consistently have his name as two words, whereas his sister Minjee is always written as one word. That discrepancy bugs me a little, but it looks like there's consensus that it's Min Woo. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 06:27, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Definitely it is confusing. And on top of that, there is more than one person with the name. So, I added "golfer" to the name, along with the hyphen. Still not sure whether to take the hyphen out or not, and also that would determine whether there is a need for the word "golfer". Johnsmith2116 (talk) 06:35, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I forgot to say, I have seen his name as "Min-woo" in the internet, on the leaderboards. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 06:47, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Since he's not Korean, I don't think the family name should be first. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 07:19, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Since he's Australian I don't think WP:NCKOREAN applies. I think we need Lee at the end, eg Min Woo Lee Minwoo Lee, not at the start eg Lee Min-woo (golfer). WP:MIDDLENAME says "Generally, use the most common format of a name used in reliable sources: if that is with a middle name or initials, make the Wikipedia article title conform to that format." Nigej (talk) 08:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I've changed them to Min Woo Lee temporarily. We now have 8 pages linking to this: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Min_Woo_Lee Nigej (talk) 09:01, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree Phinumu, and thanks to Nigej for making the golfer's page. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 16:32, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

1987 New Zealand PGA Championship

I'm struggling with Frank Nobilo's win in the 1987 New Zealand PGA Championship. It appears in the official list: https://pga.org.au/report/?tourn=1031&report=https://pga-live.pga-tic.com/tic/tmcrsts.cgi?tourn=1031~season=2019~alphaorder~&class=aus and in various other places but I've been unable to find out anything about it. Nobilo definitely won at the end of 1985: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qQEUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2294%2C208546 We have eg this from early 1991 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/122338578 "Nobilo, a two-time New Zealand PGA winner" but a Guardian article from August 1988 says he "had not won for three years, when he was New Zealand PGA Champion". Seems it wasn't a tour event, perhaps something quite minor. I'm wondering whether it happened at all. Nigej (talk) 11:22, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Worth noting too that the 2002 and 2003 (Holden) Clearwater Classic events are also not in the official list of winners. Perhaps those two should be hived off into a separate tournament article although some reports say (in articles about the 2005 NZ PGA) "the event in 2002, when it was the Clearwater Classic". Nigej (talk) 11:49, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Can't help with the NZ PGA but given the mentions of it, it probably did happen but was almost certainly a low key non-tour event.
My impression was that the Clearwater Classic was founded as a new tournament and then after a couple of years became the revived NZ PGA Championship, so related but not necessarily the same. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:14, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

1977 South African PGA Championship

It states on David Graham's wiki page that he won the 1977 South African PGA Championship. But it states on the tournament's page that John Bland won the event. It also states on Bland's page that he won. It also states on Bland's PGA Tour page that he won the event. Although I could not find a primary source stating that Bland won I have one from the New York Times stating he led after the second round.

It does state on Graham's PGA Tour page that he won the event. I believe that's the source for his "win" on his wiki page. However, like recently noticed issues with Roberto de Vicenzo and Gary Player's page, it is probably a mistake. Thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:11, 18 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

See: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=5-Y9AAAAIBAJ&sjid=i0gMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2388%2C5213770 from The Glasgow Herald. Bland clearly won in 1977. Graham may have won something, perhaps the South Australian PGA Championship (both were abbreviated to SA PGA Championship). This https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110878568 implies that David Galloway won the South Australian PGA in 1977. Nigej (talk) 07:56, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Found something from 1991 which had "1977 South African PGA Championship", so a long-standing error. Graham won the 1979 CBA West Lakes Classic in South Australia and sometimes smaller events like the South Australian PGA Championship were contested at the same time as a bigger sponsored tournament, so that's a possibility, but requires an error in the date too! Either way, clearly an error and should be removed. Nigej (talk) 10:26, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Richard Coombes won the 1979 South Australian PGA Championship, so that's theory's been blown out of the water. Nigej (talk) 11:40, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for deleting this "victory" from Graham's page User:Wjemather. I put the Glasgow Herald citation next to Bland's win. Is there a way we could contact the PGA Tour to notify them of this mistake and other (e.g. de Vicenzo, Player) mistakes on their website?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:23, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Asia Golf Circuit

Would someone mind taking a look though this, please? I think I've managed to give a basic outline of everything. However, does anyone have any definitive info regarding the last few years of this tour (1995 onwards, but especially 1998 & 1999) as available media coverage is sketchy at best and often confuses the two Asian tours – argh! Dumping ground for research here: User:Wjemather/Asia Golf Circuit. Thanks. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:47, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Don't think I can be of any use, but congratulations on the article. Personally, I was only vaguely aware of the tour from the 60s and 70s. I'm hoping that you'll be adding the season by season data at some point. Nigej (talk) 14:06, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, it's on the list! _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:56, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Does anyone have anything to confirm the Asian PGA's Omega Tour schedules for 1995 & 1996? I'm inclined to think our articles are not just incomplete but inaccurate, e.g. the Taiwan Open had OWGR points in '96 and was played a week later than indicated in our article (unless the Chinfon Cup Taiwan Open was a different tournament, but the Volvo Masters of Thailand was played that week – maybe that was a tour event?) so would have been an Asia Golf Circuit event. So many questions!! _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:06, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much for creating this wjemather! I had been thinking about creating a page for the Asian circuit for awhile now. I was wondering if you minded if I started creating yearly schedules for the circuit? It should be easy as the Australian newspapers (via Trove) have very precise information on events.

Also, one last question: why is it called "Asian Golf Circuit" rather than "Asian circuit"?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:32, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I've already compiled all but the very last couple of seasons in my sandbox (here); just need to dig up citations for the individual tournament results & pretty much everything from the final few seasons. Yes, there's lots in the Aussie press, but the Singapore papers have more: https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/ (unfortunately you can only view pages up to 1989 online & sometimes only the page is viewable rather than the article, but zoom works just as well - and the url format is great for going direct if you know the issue/page you want). Plus there's the Manila Standard (Philippines, from 1984) & New Straits Times (Malaysia, from 1972) on Google News Archive but they are quite patchy.
And... probably simply because other "Asia(n) circuit(s)" existed, e.g. tennis. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:50, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/1976 Asia Golf Circuit. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 21:50, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

"Results in The Players Championship"

Adding WGC timelines was questionable, but I think we're really crossing the WP:NOTEVERYTHING line with this one. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:20, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Follows on from a discussion Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 6#Table_for_Players_Championship last June (and indeed Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive_7#Results_in_the_Players_Championship) which you presumably missed. Nigej (talk) 11:29, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Yep, missed that, however it seems quite clear the discussion was about (again) rejecting the notion of The Players as a fifth major, with a sideline consensus of "if a timeline does get added , it wont be grouped with the majors". Despite a claim by the SPA pushing the idea, there was actually no consensus for adding it as this was not explicitly discussed. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:52, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I think the merit in the argument is that if we have a WGC table we should have something for the Players, since it seems to rank in importance between the Majors and the WGCs (at least it does to Americans). Another merit is that when the PGA Tour unilaterally declare the Players a Major we'll have a ready made table which we can simply rename "PGA Tour Major". I'm a little surprised they've not done it already. Nigej (talk) 12:15, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Simply put, the Major Championships and (to a slightly lesser extent) the WGCs transcend the PGA Tour; The Players does not.
We should absolutely not be adding content in anticipation of what may (or may not) happen in future – there has been talk of The Players being recognised as a major for 20+ years, and realistically it's no closer to happening. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:51, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

The Players is bigger than any WGC event. Tiger, Rickie, Brooks, and a handful of other top ranked players skipped the Mexico event. That doesn't happen at the Players. The Players is major Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 22:20, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

While we might discuss whether it is "major" or not, the Players is not a Major Championship. That is just a fact. Nigej (talk) 09:41, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Well it is certainly under the "big event" banner every time you turn on golf, so I think its odd that the Players isn't included in the same table as the other big events, like the Masters. I've long been of the opinion that Majors should be converted to a "Big Events" table (or we can call it whatever you want) and there should be 5 rows - Players, Masters, PGA, US Open and The Open. Most golf fans these days recognize these as the big 5. Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 16:59, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Continued pushing of opinions contradictory to what is verifiable in mainstream reliable sources is disruptive and needs to stop. To be clear: press releases, blogs and twitter feeds do not meet these criteria. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:22, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that NBC, the PGA Tour, and the Golf Channel are not mainstream or reliable sources?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EHDLrpaU8AAbLIN?format=jpg&name=medium Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 17:47, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Find a source that isn't beholden to the organization that runs the Players Championship and then we'll talk. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 18:27, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Everyone is beholden to someone, and that wasn't the point. The point was the absurd accusation that these outlets aren't mainstream." People can argue that the Players isn't a major, fine, but at least try to have a good faith discussion about it. Regardless, the World Golf Hall of Fame recognizes it as a major. So, are you ready to talk? Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 15:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

“Recognizing the game’s greatest players and contributors is an important endeavor and one our sport takes very seriously,” said World Golf Foundation Board Chairman and PGA TOUR Commissioner Jay Monahan." (http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/media-center/news-articles/hall-of-fame-selection-process/) Still the same organisation pushing their own agenda. Where as those Australian or Korean or Swedish journalists telling us that the Players is a Major? Or the European Tour or some other tour (other than the PGA Tour) telling us the same? Nigej (talk) 16:57, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct, the PGA TOUR is represented on the board of the WGHOF. I understand your desire for the WGHOF have representation from other regions of the world, such as Europe and Australia. However, the WGHOF is made up of representatives from the Euro Tour, Australian Tour, R&A, Japan Tour, Sunshine Tour, Asian Tour, and numerous other governing bodies across the world. So I don't really understand your point. https://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/about-the-museum/advisory-board/ Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 03:00, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

The key is for sources to be both "mainstream" and "reliable". In this case the Golf Channel & NBC are mainstream but they are not reliable as they are not independent of the subject: [1]. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:09, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

The media used to consider the US Am and British Am as a "Major." Its even recognized on wikipedia: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Bobby_Jones_(golfer). Why is that? Because people who coverage golf deemed it so. Now the mainstream media and the powers that be are telling us that the Players is a "Big Event" to be lumped in with the likes of the Masters. Denying the Players the stature that it deserves is in fact contradictory to what has been going on over the last several years. Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

However even the page you give simply lists 7 of "Golf's biggest events" not a "big 5". And it shows a very US-centred TV-view of what is "biggest". Remember the English language version of Wikipedia covers the whole world; so you need to come up with non-US sources to convince anyone. Other countries have different ideas about what are the biggest golf events. A common feature of golf worldwide that everyone is agreed on is that there are 4 Major Championships, no more, no less. Nigej (talk) 18:01, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

The Olympics is every 4 years and it would be pretty difficult to format that in the same chart. And the FedExCup is 3 different events, so again, impossible to format in the same chart. Also, the world golf hall of fame recognizes the Players as a major. Again, thats the WORLD golf hall of Fame. Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 15:39, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

As per the above, the same goes for the WGHoF, which is also simply pushing the PGA Tour's agenda. The consensus, both here and in the wider world, is that The Players is not a major. That should be the end of it. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:09, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

I fail to see how or why a group comprised of representatives of the European Tour, Asian Tour, Japan Tour, Australian Tour, and every other relevant golf governing body in the world, is simply a tool to push the PGA Tour's agenda. Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 03:00, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Maybe WGHoF denotes the Players as a major but nonetheless I have not noticed any other media refer to that. Frankly, Deep Fried Eggs, your proposal is astonishing and the most radical form of WP:OR I have witnessed on Wikipedia. When (or if) the Players is denoted a major this will be a huge story with thousands of published articles across the world. It will be obvious. Right now we do not simply interpret a few websites and make a subjective judgment that the Players is a major. This is crazy. Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:10, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I think my main point has been lost a bit. I'm willing to accept a reasonable debate as to whether the Player is or is not a major. I'd agree that there is no clear consensus. I had to go off on a tangent to cite numerous global sources and organizations because there were disingenuous and false claims that this was simply a PGA Tour driven suggestion. However, its my ultimate opinion that Majors should be converted to a "Big Events" table (or we can call it whatever you want) and there should be 5 rows - Players, Masters, PGA, US Open, The Open. As it stands now, the Players chart is separated. Personally, I think we can get a better grasp on just how well someone does in "Big Events" and just how impressive a players year/decade is if they were all put together. It would be more aesthetically pleasing and provide a greater and more efficient insight as to how good that player was. Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 19:59, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no debate and there is clear and obvious consensus – The Players is absolutely not a "major". In addition the suggestion that it should be one, is verifiably PGA Tour driven.
Your other suggestion violates WP:OR with an invented ill-defined construct of "big events" (or anything else), and also goes against consensus. It's time to move on. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 20:12, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

The WGHOF is made up of the European Tour, R&A, Asian Tour, Australian Tour, and many other tours around the world that have no interest in pushing the PGA Tour's agenda. Its disingenuous to suggest otherwise. Deep Fried Eggs (talk) 22:40, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Worth reading this https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/51709473 from today's BBC news which is relevant to this topic. Nigej (talk) 10:27, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

1969 Canadian Open

There is some ambiguity regarding Tommy Aaron's victory at the 1969 Canadian Open (golf). It states on his wiki page that it is one of three PGA Tour wins. Also, on our 1969 PGA Tour page it states the Canadian Open was part of the official calendar.

However, it appears that our sites are wrong and that it was not an official event that season. It does not state anywhere on Aaron's PGA Tour page that it was an official event. Rather, it is under "Additional Victories." In addition, there are a number of reliable third-party sources that state it was not an official event at the time. For example here and here and here and here. I can also recall seeing an article (I cannot find it now) that quoted Aaron as stating his Atlanta Classic win was his first PGA Tour win. (That event was in 1970.)

So it looks like it wasn't an official event. I have no idea why as I checked the PGA Tour.com profiles of all of the winners of that event during the era. For all of them it states it was an official win. Also, Aaron beat Sam Snead in a playoff and the purse was substantial.

Lastly, I noticed on the 1969 PGA Tour schedule that the Canadian Open was competing with the American Golf Classic, an official event in Ohio. Not sure what to make of it but that the only year in the era where the Canadian Open was opposite another PGA Tour event.

So it looks like we should change it. Thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

In the late 1980s, the PGA Tour determined which events it considered official. This included some events that weren’t official at the time they were played (this probably includes the above mentioned tournament) while other tournaments that were official when played were determined to not be recognized as official. Other tournaments have been added since then. Tewapack (talk) 05:00, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I changed Aaron's page as well as the 1969 PGA Tour page. If you have any misgivings about my changes, however, please let me know.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:09, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

It appears the PGA Tour has recently changed what wins count. Billy Casper's bio says he has 51 wins, but only 48 are listed; the 1965 and 1969 Bob Hope Desert Classics and the 1969 Alcan Open are gone. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 17:58, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Somebody who takes care of the PGA Tour website has erased golf history screwed up. Also missing is Casper's 1968 playoff loss to Johnny Pott at the 1968 Bing Crosby. The PGA Tour has a long history of recordkeeping screw ups. After getting a hold of their 1990s media guides, I mailed PGA HQ a four page list of corrections mostly of their playoff section. I have been saying for five years at least, WP has the best record keeping around....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 20:07, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

None of the tours are particularly great at maintaining historical records. That's partly down to how most tours came about as an evolution and (sometimes) separation of sections within the PGAs, but it doesn't help that they constantly try to rewrite history by retrospectively changing the status of tournaments. It's one of the reasons why most of our "list of golfers with most wins on X tour" articles are so inaccurate and unverifiable without definitive stats provided by the tours. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 20:48, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Apparently the tour now considers the Hope and Crosby tournaments from that era to be unofficial, among others. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 21:45, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Japan majors?

We have odd references to a set of four of the more important events in Japan being "major" in some sense. See Japan Golf Tour Championship#JGT major golf championships and {{Japan Golf Tour Events}}. I'm struggling to confirm that this is based on anything official. Or has someone simply made it up. Nigej (talk) 22:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

All I know is that the Japan Open, Japan PGA, and JGT Championship give five-year exemptions on the tour, and the Golf Nippon Series gives a three-year exemption. I haven't seen any of them actually referred to as majors, although the JGT sometimes uses the term "foreign majors" when referring to the actual majors. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 23:58, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

It's true, the JGT does us the term "foreign majors" as if there were domestic ones too. Anyway, a section at Japan Golf Tour Championship#JGT major golf championships is not the best place for listing them. If they really do exist we should have an article (even if just a stub). Can't find any suitable reference though. Nigej (talk) 08:16, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, they do (or at least did) have their own "majors". This references that: [2]; and also hints that the Japan Open and Japan PGA were two of them. This indicates there were four: [3]. I'd probably say a section within Japan Golf Tour would suffice, and possibly mention in the men's majors article. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm planning to move Golf Nippon Series JT Cup to Golf Nippon Series or something similar. JT is Japan Tobacco, so in line with our normal practice we shouldn't have it in the article title where we can avoid it. Nigej (talk) 08:46, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

Al Besselink

Here https://www.newspapers.com/clip/47009219/the-sacramento-bee/ Al Besselink says "I'm 57, and going on 58, which I will be on June 10. I was born in 1923" Now https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/178793594 seems to have a note of a death on "10 Apr 2017 (aged 93)" of Albert C. Besselink born 10 Jun 1923. Not sure whether we missed his death or is the note of his death incorrect or a different person (which seems unlikely)? 4-time winner on the PGA Tour. Nigej (talk) 16:22, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Seems little doubt it's the same Al Besselink, but strange for there to be no easily findable coverage in reliable sources (findagrave is not one, but confirmed record is correct via [4]). May have to look for local press coverage. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:10, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Someone wrote a book about him https://www.amazon.com/Prince-Merchantville-Jersey-Dapper-Adonis/dp/0974902357 so not an unknown. Also: https://eu.courierpostonline.com/story/sports/2014/10/19/merchantville-cc-honor-besselink-one/17587337/ from 2014. Nigej (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

The findagrave information comes from the United States Department of Veterans Affairs website here: https://catalog.data.gov/dataset/gravesite-locations-of-veterans-and-beneficiaries-in-florida-as-of-may-2019 The download file is large, 333,411 entries. Albert C Besselink is entry number 301,071: born Jun 10, 1923 died Apr 10, 2017. Corporal in the US Army in World War II. Nigej (talk) 10:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Problems with List of golfers with most PGA Tour of Australasia wins

Unlike other tours "most wins" lists, this one seems to be unverifiable and a clear violation of WP:OR with obviously invented but unclear and contradictory criteria for inclusion – from the prose it could be any combination of the following:

• PGA of Australia recognised events.
  • but this seems unverifiable.
• Qualifying Order of Merit events.
  • but since when, given the Order of Merit has not always been in place, only having been reinstated in 1973?
  • and also pretty much unverifiable, especially pre-1973, with many tournaments being on and off the merit list regularly, and seemingly no records available.
• Any (supposedly important enough?) Australian event.
• Any (supposedly important enough?) Australia or New Zealand event.

Before it goes to AfD, does anyone think there is any way this list can be sourced? Or can clear verifiable criteria be determined to define what events qualify for inclusion, so it can be rewritten and sourced? _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:55, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Gets off to a bad start with "This is a list of golfers who have recorded the most tournament wins on the PGA Tour of Australasia since it was established in 1911." The PGA of Australia dates to 1911, not the tour. Personally I'd be more than happy to see it go, seems to be largely made up and I'm not sure we have anything better. Hopefully it can be recreated at some point when we have some proper data. A bit of an embarrassment really. Nigej (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

I have a copy of the 2006 Tour Media Guide, which lists former events and winners, so that could be used as a start. I will not be able to do anything with it though for a couple of weeks. Tewapack (talk) 21:54, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

If it's the same as the one I have, there are just too many oversights/errors & omissions for it to be a reliable source (for this purpose); e.g. the state opens & PGAs are all missing, many of which have been on/off the merit list; same for other NZ tournaments; some events are listed as non-OoM when reports of the day would suggest otherwise (e.g. 1979 South Seas Classic [5]), and some events lost their OoM status some years (e.g. 1992 Australian Masters [6]). _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 22:34, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I check this page quite frequently and have thought about proposing to delete it. Like Nigej says it seems made up. It was published a full decade ago and still there is not a single citation. This is preposterous. Same exact problems with List of golfers with most Sunshine Tour wins. We could edit these but I think it may be best to delete these pages and start anew. Thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

My idea would be that all wins from 1973 onwards should only count as PGA Tour of Australasia wins. Going by Wjemather's Tournament schedule page https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Wjemather/Australasian_Tour#1996–97, this seems like the only source of information to go by currently. Any tournaments pre-dating 1973 or which did not appear on a schedule from 1973 onwards, should just be considered e.g. 'Other Australasian wins' etc. Jimmymci234 (talk) 17:17, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately that would still be largely original research due to (so far) being unable to reliably reference a lot of the schedules and confirm which tournaments were (or are now considered) as official tour wins. Sadly it also needs to be noted that many of the sources that have been found don't do that. What we need is definitive numbers (even if they are wrong!) from the tour itself. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 17:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with WJEMather. It's fair game to take an official list and update and correct errors but making our own list form scratch seems a step too far to me. Nigej (talk) 17:43, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

• The two most problematic lists have now been nominated for deletion. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of golfers with most PGA Tour of Australasia wins and List of golfers with most Sunshine Tour wins. Thanks. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:13, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Where to list the cancellations and postponements

This year's PGA Tour page and European Tour page have different ways of listing the cancellations and postponements. The European Tour page has them at the top of the schedule, and the PGA Tour page has them down inside the schedule in chronological order. Should we have them be the same for consistency? Or leave each of them as they are? Johnsmith2116 (talk) 05:01, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Seems to me that, currently, the way its been done at 2019–20 PGA Tour is ok. Clearly we don't know how long this thing's going to go on. Could be 6 months. Could be no majors this year. At this stage we should just provide the basic information, we can tidy it all up when golf gets going again. Nigej (talk) 07:23, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Will do. And yeah, who knows how long it will take for certain, although currently the PGA plans to be back in action in time for the Masters. I'd like to think the PGA will reschedule The Players, but I don't know if they will. Also, I hear that IndyCar and NASCAR will at least run without fans attending, but I didn't hear what Formula One plans to do. IndyCar has the big one, the Indianapolis 500, in late May, and it would be a shame to have that run without the fans attending. And, as far as the NBA and NHL go, there is no telling, when they resume, if they will shorten their seasons to finish on time, or if they will play all the games and simply finish their seasons later than usual. As far as the Players, if it were to be rescheduled, they would have to play it the same week as another PGA Tour tournament, thereby making that other tournament have the effect of being an alternate event. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 08:17, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm thinking 2020 WGC-Dell Technologies Match Play should probably be deleted as a non-event? After removing/commenting out most of the edition specific stuff, there really isn't anything that isn't just duplicating whats in the main article. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:05, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

That would be consistent with the 2001 WGC Championship. We should keep the 2020 Players though, as competitive play did take place Jopal22 (talk) 10:08, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree, The Players should be kept. As an alternative to deletion, we could create an anchor in the main article (probably in the winners table) and redirect to that? _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:11, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it can go. I added it to Category:Sports events cancelled due to the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic but that is no valid reason to keep it. A redirect seems sensible. Nigej (talk) 10:14, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Done. I've left some of the categories as they are/maybe useful. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:35, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

The next chance to see the PGA Tour will be The Masters. Hopefully that will stay on time. And it is the most watched golf tournament on TV all year. I know people's health takes priority, but as a fan, waiting 27 days until The Masters is going to seem like a lot longer than 27 days. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 12:58, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Update: The Masters has now been postponed. This means that it will be at least 34 days until PGA Tour golf, with the RBC Heritage. There is no telling when it will end. Hopefully the Olympic Games will go on as scheduled. I've already started the Olympic golf pages, with the dates on them as they were scheduled. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 15:30, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Update: The RBC Heritage usually has 132 players. Since the golfers will be so wanting to get back to playing golf in a month from now, I would not be surprised if the tournament expands to a full 156 players (if there is enough sunshine) to accommodate all the requests from PGA Tour players that the RBC Heritage is sure to get. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 13:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Hey Johnsmith2116, hate to break this to you, but there won't be golf for a loooong time. In the UK we are not expecting the peak to be over until the end of June, I expect the same for th US https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/when-coronavirus-peak-uk-how-prepare-what-happens-next/. Events beyond the Masters have not been cancelled yet, but they are just giving themselves breathing room to assess how things develop first. Jopal22 (talk) 14:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I expect you're right. I check the golf news each day when I wake up. So far, there are no new cancellations nor postponements in the last couple of days. If another week goes by and no new cancellations or postponements have been announced, there might be reason to believe that they are going to try to go on with what they currently have. It will be interesting to see which sports league (PGA or any other) has the courage to say they feel safe to resume playing. The UFC, I think, is one of the few still going on with operations; They have relocated a few events, and are having empty arenas, but so far, their bouts are still happening. In fact, London was scheduled to have the next UFC event this coming Saturday, but they are relocating the event while keeping it on time.Johnsmith2116 (talk) 14:37, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Ironically, the first guy who dropped out of The Players is the same guy who is the defending champion of the next scheduled event, CT Pan. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 08:17, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Well, the new date now for (most) professional golf to return is May 21, and that is Memorial Day weekend here in the USA. That is five weeks beyond the previous estimate. And the only tournaments postponed are the Masters and the PGA Championship, likely because they are majors. Jopal22, you were right. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 22:29, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Above I said "Could be 6 months. Could be no majors this year." Still thinking this might be correct. May is no more realistic than April. September is my guess. Ryder Cup? Nigej (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it could be. Best case scenario, they could get going in late May as currently scheduled. And if they do, the PGA Championship could be played in August (ironically when it used to be played), a couple weeks after the Olympic golf tournament, giving us the Open, Olympics, and PGA Championship all in a span of five weeks. And, whichever tournaments which will be scheduled for the weeks that the Masters and PGA Championship are rescheduled, will either have to basically be played as alternate tournaments, or canceled altogether. And the way it looks for the Masters, is that the Ryder Cup will be played before the Masters, because trying to play the Masters in September might still be too hot in Georgia. So, the Masters might be in October, thereby giving us the first of two Masters tournaments to be played in the span of six months. As far as the Charles Schwab Challenge in late May is concerned, it is usually a field of 120 (I think). Maybe they will expand it to 156 to accommodate the golfers who have been anxious to play after such a long layoff. All that is assuming they are playing by late May. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 10:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

The AFL looks like it will be playing its games as scheduled, although with empty stadiums. Their first game gets underway in a few minutes, and I am fortunate to have the channel on my TV to show this game, Richmond vs Carlton. It starts in a few minutes and I am going to watch it. It will be nice to see some live sports. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 07:36, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

There is supposed to be a decision, in no more than a month, on whether the 2020 Summer Olympics in Japan will be postponed. If the postponement happens, obviously it can't be a short delay. The delay would likely need to be a full year. And that would mean that the Summer Olympics and next Winter Olympics would be seven months apart. But then again, personally I'd like to see China stripped of the hosting duties of the 2022 Winter Olympics. This thing China has put on the world is flipping our lives upside down, and when you add into it all the cheating they have done, the human rights violations, and the air pollution, it would be a real shame if China will be allowed to keep the 2022 Winter games. Either enable a different country to host in 2022 if there is enough time to prepare, or simply cancel the 2022 Games altogether. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 22:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

And get the WGC HSBC Champions out of China! Johnsmith2116 (talk) 22:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

The 2020 Summer Olympics are not going to happen. The current impasse, where no formal announcement is made, is largely because the IOC, as usual, is more interested in money than sport. The IOC wants the Japanese to cancel it so that they can blame them. The idea that you could have athletes and officials from 200 countries coming together for 3 weeks, mixing and then going home is a non-starter. The first sport to get going will be domestic events in countries that have the virus under control. Nigej (talk) 22:53, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Well said. ... And now, it looks like they didn't waste any time making their announcement. The 2020 Summer games in Japan will be postponed, likely by a whole year. But I don't think China should be let off the hook as far as sports is concerned. I'd like to see the WGC HSBC Champions move away from China (as I mentioned above), any European Tour and LPGA Tour events moved out of China, and any other prominent sporting events in China, especially the 2022 Winter Olympic Games, pulled out of there. And if that means having to simply not have the next Winter Olympics until 2026, then so be it. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

As far as the golfers who will qualify for the Olympic golf, it will be interesting to see how they do the selection process. Maybe they will go based on the current rankings and honor it for next year, or maybe they will go with the rankings next year. Can't wait to see how they handle that one. .. But also, there will have to be some way to figure out the remainder of the entries in the Masters in autumn, now that a number of the "win to get in" tournaments have been canceled. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 14:28, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

This is neither a WP:SOAPBOX nor a WP:FORUM. Any chance we could we keep discussions here constructive? Thanks. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 15:17, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

The new 2020 Summer Olympics dates have been announced. They will be exactly 52 weeks after the original dates. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 14:12, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

The Wikipedia pages dedicated to keeping up to date on the virus situation are getting many views; the page for the UK is averaging roughly 100,000 views per day, and the one for the USA is averaging roughly 300,000 views per day. In case anyone here wants a quick link to those pages, here they are: 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United Kingdom ... and 2020 coronavirus pandemic in the United States ... Johnsmith2116 (talk) 09:17, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• All postponements/cancellations should be summarised in Impact of the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic on sports#Golf. At the moment, the golf section is a little out-of-date, inaccurate in places, and very thin on detail. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:52, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

With the postponement of the Summer Olympics Games until next year, that will give the golf tours flexibility on when they can reschedule some tournaments. For example, the Women's British Open, which is currently scheduled for late August (because of the idea that there was going to be Olympic women's golf in early August), could possibly be moved up to early August and be held the week that it usually is held most years. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 11:41, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I read that this year's Wimbledon tennis tournament has been canceled altogether. I don't understand why they didn't try to postpone it. The French Open has been postponed, so, it seems like postponing Wimbledon would have been the obvious thing to do. This means that the most revered tennis major will not be played this year, unless the report I read was incorrect. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 21:28, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Wimbledon is an event played on grass with long summer evenings. It's not practical to play it late in the year. 2 courts are now covered, sufficient for a Davis Cup match, say, but not enough for the Championships. For similar reasons it's difficult to see the Open being played this year. Nigej (talk) 21:48, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Good points there. I thought about the grass and I wondered if that might be an issue. But as far as the sunlight, I figured, if they could do the French Open in September, they must have found a way to deal with the sunlight issue for the French Open. So, I thought maybe they could similarly figure a way for the sunlight for Wimbledon. ... As it is, 7 of the 8 scheduled ATP tennis tournaments for the month of July are the lowest tier events during that month, so, I thought perhaps they could move one or two of those tournament aside to make way for Wimbledon. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 21:57, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

In the last day, I have read, 1: that the golf US Open might be both rescheduled and relocated, relocated because of he fact that it is supposed to be in the state of New York this year and New York has been hit hard by the virus. And 2: that the Open Championship could be canceled altogether. Waiting to hear further updates about both of these tournaments. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 10:30, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

And now someone has gone through and changed the articles for this year's majors on the assumption that the Opens are both played as scheduled and the PGA and Masters (in that order) are played later in the year. Seems premature. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 18:42, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

I've reverted and hidden the succession boxes as they are not accurate/constitute WP:OR at the moment, and will do until any new dates/cancellations are announced. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 18:55, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Good ideaTomrtn (talk) 20:37, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Sky Sports News is reporting that the governing bodies have a plan for holding the majors, which is waiting for the R&A to confirm if they are going ahead, delaying or cancelling the Open.

Open goes ahead as planed:

• The Open July 16-19
• PGA Champ Aug 6-9
• US Open Sept 17-20
• Ryder Cup Sept 25-27
• Masters Nov 12-15

Open delayed:

• PGA Champ Aug 6-9
• The Open Sept 17-20
• Ryder Cup Sept 25-27
• Masters Nov 12-15
• US Open rearranged at alternative venue

Open cancelled:

• PGA Champ Aug 6-9
• US Open Sept 17-20
• Ryder Cup Sept 25-27
• Masters Nov 12-15

Jopal22 (talk) 13:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

That's good to hear. It will be interesting to see which option happens. Thanks for typing out all that information, Jopal22. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 14:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, if they go with the option of having the Open in September, as the LPGA and LET did with the Women's British Open in 2012, the Open might be cold and have to reduce the field to a smaller than usual number of players due to lack of daylight, but at least having it that way will be better than not having it at all, especially now that Wimbledon has been canceled. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 14:17, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

There's a report that a PGA Tour executive who oversees player activity is the first PGA Tour employee to have tested positive for the virus. The article didn't mention a name, apparently. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 20:51, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Ross Berlin is the name I found. He's the tour's senior vice president of player affairs. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 21:05, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

It's official, the Open is canceled. Hard to believe we will have a year without Wimbledon or the Open. But we do get to keep the golf US Open and tennis US Open, as of now. Naturally this can change. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 16:58, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Discussion notice

Please see discussion here: Talk:Men's major golf championships#Major championship winners section. Thanks. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 21:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Woodlawn Tournament

The Woodlawn Tournament (aka Woodlawn Open/Invitational/International, Ramstein Open, among other things) ran for 11 years (1958–68) and was one of the richest in Europe when it was founded. I've managed to find details/news reports for all but one edition (compiled here)... Since I'm not keen on moving incomplete things into article space, is there any chance someone knows or can find the details for 1967? Thanks. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 22:15, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Found it. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 15:42, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I've added another ref. Nigej (talk) 16:08, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Category:Caddie Hall of Fame inductees has been nominated for discussion

Category:Caddie Hall of Fame inductees has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 18:21, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Latest on PGA Tour and Korn Ferry Tour

Golf Channel is reporting that the Korn Ferry Tour's 2020 and 2021 seasons will be combined. As part of this, the 2020 Finals events will be converted to regular KFT events. Also in addition to the already-known tournament at Dye's Valley, another new Florida event will replace Wichita; Colorado will be moved up one week, while the following two weeks will be taken by tournaments at two different TPC San Antonio courses (displacing Lincoln Land). GC's source is a memo sent to players. Apparently a more complete KFT schedule will be released Monday; no clue whether that release will extend into the 2021 events. Apparently the eligibility structure for the 2021–22 PGA Tour season will be markedly different, but that will have a smaller effect on our articles. (Of course, everything is still subject to change.) pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 02:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The Match: Champions for Charity

As the PGA Tour announced recently that they will be sanctioning 'The Match: Champions for Charity', I have added it to the unofficial events section of the 2019-20 PGA Tour page. The question is; does it need a new page created for it or is it deemed as a 'Part 2' of the Tiger vs Phil match? i.e. 'Champions for Charity' should just be added onto the already existing page for 'The Match'. Let me know what you think. Thanks. Jimmymci234 (talk) 11:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC) 11:26, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

At this point, I would probably lean towards it being a second installment of The Match: Tiger vs. Phil, and would see it fitting in that article. In addition, and probably at least until it takes place, it probably doesn't meet WP:N as a standalone WP:EVENT. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:13, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree that it should be combined with the Tiger v Phil event. While creating a lot of short term coverage, these sort of events tend to disappear from public interest quite quickly. Certainly each one doesn't warrant a separate article. Nigej (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move: Fort Worth Invitational

Please see discussion at Talk:Fort Worth Invitational#Requested move 9 May 2020. Thanks. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:45, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Jamaica Open

I was looking to make a page on the Jamaica Open. I only have one reliable source however, for Bob Shaw's 1975 win. There is information on Norman Wood's page that he won the 1973 event and on Bruce Fleisher's page that he won the 1990 event. However, there are no citations.

There is evidence that the event has been held quite a bit. On these websites it says the event has been held at least 52 times now. If you guys have more information to demonstrate that this is a notable event that would be helpful.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:42, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Wjemather has made a good start here: User:Wjemather/Caribbean Tour#Jamaica Open. We sometimes use Jamaican Open rather but than Jamaica Open, but the latter seems to be correct. From 1958 to 1963 it was quite a significant event, part of the Caribbean circuit, with a significant US presence. http://jamaica-star.com/article/sports/20170531/pga-tour-could-soon-return-jamaica-chin refers to it as "an unofficial PGA TOUR event played from 1958 to 1963". Nigej (talk) 08:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Certainly a notable event as part of the Caribbean Tour (which was at least partially operated by the PGA Tour) in the late 1950s into the early 1960s, and on occasion after that. As always, we just need to take care that were looking at the correct tournament as journalists often mistakenly (or lazily) refer to local club/sponsored tournaments as the "country open" in reports (e.g. all the big tournaments in Colombia were regularly reported as the "Colombia" or "Colombian" open , but only one of them was the national open). _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:52, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I've updated the winners table – just missing 1995. It was scheduled for the end of October, but the JGA were struggling for sponsorship so it probably went ahead as a minor event and as such was not widely reported (unfortunately, the local paper – The Gleaner – is missing on NewspaperArchive for the relevant dates). _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 12:57, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I see we have Roberto De Vicenzo winning in 1955, 1956 and 1957 (from http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/roberto-de-vicenzo/?tab=achievements I assume). It's clear that Antonio Cerdá won in 1955, eg https://www.pennymead.com/item.php?id=15872 Nigej (talk) 13:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Can't see evidence of any other tournament in Jamaica in 1955 that it could be confused with, so I've removed it from our De Vicenzo article. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Not the first time that worldgolfhalloffame.org has been wrong. Nigej (talk) 15:49, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

wjemather, this looks great. Very comprehensive. Just wondering, but why haven't you published it yet?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:18, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Annoyingly, it's still missing a few refs, but moved into article space now. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 13:41, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Well done. One of those tournaments where the standard varies a lot over time. Not surprising that some of the events got little coverage. Nigej (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Definitely. Just a shame that for a couple of years The Gleaner appear to be missing the final round report (at least I haven't found them) and in other years some issues are not available on standard NewspaperArchive – looking at it, the rest seem to be accessible with an additional subscription. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 16:47, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, looks good! Great job wjemather! Have any idea when you will publish the Caribbean Tour page?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

1969 PGA Tour satellite events

There appear to be two satellite events on the 1969 PGA Tour page but are presented as official events. They are the Indian Ridge Hospital Open Invitational, held in my home state of Massachusetts, and the West End Classic, held late in the year in the Bahamas. Unless I am presented with contrary evidence I will either delete them from the 1969 calendar or place them in a separate section.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:17, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

From what I can tell, the Indian Ridge event was sanctioned by the PGA in 1969, and also scheduled in 1970 but doesn't seem to have been played. From UPI wire reports: "Kaser's name had been unintentionally left off a list of winners for the past year. Kaser won the Indian Ridge Hospital Open at Andover, Mass." It is also listed in one of the sources [7].
The West End Classic was also reported as a "PGA Tour win", and is in the source.
It actually seems we are missing other "satellite"/alternate PGA sanctioned events of the day from some of our season articles, such as the Magnolia State Classic. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:48, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you wjemather. The PGA Tour source you provided is, I believe, slightly inaccurate. I believe Kaser's win is official because it is listed on his PGA Tour website under the "performance" section. However, Wiecher's win is not listed in his performance section. I have never noticed any mistakes under the performance section of a player's website. However the "1969 winners sorted by age" is sort of like a press release and I have noticed mistakes on material like that.

In addition I have updated 1969 PGA Tour wiki page to display which events were Satellite Events as well as Alternate Events. Please tell me what you think.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Endagine Open

I was looking to make a page for the Endagine Open, an event in Switzerland during the 1960s. Right now, however, I do not have enough information to create a page.

It states on Neil Coles's wiki page that he won the event in 1963. I also have a reliable third-party source stating that Randall Vines won the 1969 event. But that's it. (And the article itself is about the 1972 Australian PGA - it only mentions the Endagine victory in passing.)

So I don't really think I have enough information to create a page. Do you guys have any more information about there?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:46, 29 February 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

You've got the wrong spelling. It's Engadine (sometimes Engadin). See: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ev1UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dJMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2586%2C4666715 One of those continental tournaments that had limited coverage but enough prize money to attract a few useful pros. see: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=UFxAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=hqMMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2977%2C3372355 for Coles's win. Nigej (talk) 21:44, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Harold Henning 1966: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9XhAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=x6MMAAAAIBAJ&pg=1456%2C4216916 (right and down a bit) Nigej (talk) 22:07, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Graham Henning 1967: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=GVxAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=c6MMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5962%2C3779990 Nigej (talk) 10:11, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Bob Charles 1962 https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1962-08-01/1962-08-31?basicsearch=%22engadine%22&exactsearch=false&retrievecountrycounts=false can't find a proper ref

https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/1965aug70.pdf confirms that it started in 1962 and Cobie LeGrange won in 1964. Gives dates for 1965 event. Nigej (talk) 10:42, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

http://www.nga-earlygolf.nl/golfarchief/files/original/d300ccb358870a5c30e1bfb24e7d9bd7.pdf (page 494) confirms that Carlo Grappasonni won in 1965: "Carlo Grappasonni won the Open Engadine Championship this year." "In an exciting finish between Weetman and Grappasonni the result was settled in favour of the latter." Nigej (talk) 11:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/107069699 has the detail of Vines's 1968 win. Nothing similar for 1969 which makes me suspect that the 1972 ref may have the wrong year. Not uncommon. Searching through various things it seems unlikely to me that Vines was in Europe in the summer of 1969 at all. Nigej (talk) 12:04, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

See https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pbIyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=reUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4299%2C869315 and https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AN1UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2pADAAAAIBAJ&pg=4260%2C142241 which both refer to his Engadine Open win in 1968, confirming I think that the 1969 is a typo. Nigej (talk) 15:34, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much Nigej for all of these links! The page is up. There are a few loose ends however...

1) I do not have primary source for the 1962 and 1964 events. Not sure if we need one but if you got one...

2) I cannot find who won the 1965 event. The source is in another language.

3) It states that "Italian Luciano Bernardini" was runner-up in the final event. I believe this is a mistake in some form. (The papers from this era, as you know, always make little mistakes like this.) I came across a Swiss golfer from the era with the same name. Could they actually be referring to Italian Roberto Bernardini though? R. Bernardini actually defeated Randall Vines in another event in Switzerland (the Swiss Open) that summer. He was probably Italy's most prominent golfer during the era.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:54, 10 March 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Have added some details. The golfdom snippet only gives the first three winners but does at least confirm the start date. There is a Luciano Bernardini https://www.europeantour.com/players/luciano-bernardini-728/ Roberto's brother (Paolo too). Still around it seems https://www.swisspga.ch/en/pro/luciano-bernadini and based in Switzerland. Nigej (talk) 09:15, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Nigej. I was wondering if you had more information on Luciano. How do you know that they guy in the links you provided is the same as the guy who finished runner-up in Endagine. I ask because I am thinking of making a page on him. In addition, do you have more information on these Egyptian golfers? I have not noticed many Egyptian golfers before and was thinking of making a page about them.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Struggling to find anything really. Suspect he's not really notable enough for an article. "Luciano Bernardini, 66, golf instructor and president of the company that manages the Locarno Golf School." https://www.tio.ch/ticino/392899/nuovi-volti-dei-guastafeste-per-il-consiglio-comunale (May 2008) fits in with the 1942 date of birth given on the European tour website. Seems the "Golf Target Locarno" is a family-run driving range https://www.golflocarno.ch/team/ Previously he was club professional in Switzerland for many years. Nigej (talk) 07:46, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

As to Egyptian golfers, nothing I'm afraid. Nigej (talk) 07:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree, I'm doubtful Luciano Bernardini meets WP:N; but a redirect to a couple of sentences in an appropriate article would probably be ok as long as it isn't be unduly detailed.
Regarding the Egyptians, there is a fair amount of info accessible via google for Mohamed Said Moussa, Abdel Halim Kahoul and Cherif El-Sayed Cherif, just need to get creative with the names and spellings! (e.g. I found at least 20 possible variations for Abdel Halim Kahoul, while looking at the World Cup). _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 09:47, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes you're probably right about Bernardini. In regards to the Egyptians, if I come across their names more I may create a page for one or more of them. Do you know if they had any other right finishes in Europe?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:05, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Top 200 OWGR

51.6.161.113,

I remember you commented a couple of months ago about how OWGR, in general, was not "equitable" for non-PGA Tour golfers, especially those outside of the top 25. I apologize for not responding back then - it seemed like a very thoughtful comment and I thought it would take a while to formulate a response... then I kind of just forgot about it. I don't mean to keep on beating a dead horse but I think the OWGR ranking is a very important part of WikiProject Golf. I believe this conversation should continue until we reach a consensus. Beneath is my response.

The most well-known study of OWGR is called the Broadie-Rendleman study. It was produced by Professor Mark Broadie at Columbia University and Professor Richard Rendleman at Dartmouth University in 2012. A copy of the study is here. Golf Digest also ran a story around the same time the study was published it. It is here. Their conclusion is that OWGR is specifically biased PGA Tour pros. Their data manifests a numbers of things:

- the average PGA Tour player is ranked 31 positions lower that he should be

- Nick Watney, despite outplaying Japan Golf Tour pro Yuta Ikeda in 10/12 events, was ranked virtually the same as Ikeda over this time period.

- The flagship events for international tours get way more points than they should relative to strength of field

- at the 2010 Madeira Island Open, perhaps the weakest event on the European Tour, the winner received more points than a man who received solo 5th at the Masters.

- the authors quote a man named Capelle who states: "the secret to becoming one of the top 50 players in the world...: play on a foreign circuit."

I would also like to note that in the article that PGA Tour employees state that the top 20 on the PGA Tour is well represented. So we can agree on that. Contrary to your hypothesis, however, the authors of the article believe the remainder of OWGR slots are not equitably dispensed between PGA Tour golfers and international golfers. So it appears that, upon rigorous analysis, OWGR is specifically biased against PGA Tour players ranked outside of the top 25.

I am also including Nigej in this discussion as he is in charge of WikiProject Golf's OWGR stuff. I hope this is the beginning of a fruitful discussion.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:23, 4 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogy

I'm not sure we need get too much into the rights and wrongs of the OWGR. It is the de-facto world ranking - it's not like the amateur rankings where WAGR competes with SPWAR. I haven't done anything recently on extending the list beyond 100. I have a provisional list of those who've got 101-200, although this inevitably misses some, especially at the 200 end. Creating the list was quite useful in that it came up with a few players that reached the top 100 that I'd previously missed. Personally I'm happy enough stopping at 100. Clearly there's more effort maintaining the list if it goes to 200. I'm somewhat doubtful if there too much encyclopedic interest beyond 100 and the other concern is that we're treading near the "original research" boundary. There doesn't seem to be anyone out there keeping such a list - so there's nothing clear-cut for us to reference. Nigej (talk) 08:46, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Agree that the encyclopedic limit is 100 (or lower). Even the value of the ranking itself becomes limited at this point. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

As I said before, I don't care much about including contemporary golfers between #101-200. Rather, I am more interested in adding the peak ranking of retired golfers. With current golfers, as we have said before, at this level their peak ranking will fluctuate a lot. Their "peak ranking" may only last a week or two. Also, a lot of them are stuck on developmental tours where it can be difficult to pick up points (and thereby demonstrate your "true" peak ranking.)

With retired golfers there will obviously be no volatility. And also it will be so much easier to do - you will only have to do it once and roughly thirty years worth of journeyman golfer's peak OWGR will be updated.

Lastly, the main objection seems to be that this is WP:OR. I think what we have produced (top 100) is far closer to "original research." If a golfer moves into the top 100 it is occasionally mentioned (e.g. John Smith moves back into the top 100 with his win...) but usually incidental. Top 200 has actual, precise value. For most of its history OWGR only ranked the top 200. Strength of Field is calculated only using the top 200. For Top 100, as far as I know, it has no functional use.

So basically my argument comes down to this:

1) Only notable golfers have Wikipedia pages

2) We have already determined that the top 100 is valuable.

3) The top 200 threshold, in my opinion, has far more meaning than top 100

4) Therefore all - or at least most - golfers with Wikipedia pages should have their peak OWGR listed

I simply don't see why top 200 is being neglected. I understand in some cases where they have not played a lot of events and therefore have a small sample size. But most of those guys don't have wikipedia pages to begin with. (And anyway, as I've said, I don't really think it's that important to list the peak OWGR of current developmental tour pros.) But in most cases, especially with retired golfers, the sample size is quite large and the peak OWGR is a legitimate representation of the quality of his career. I just don't see why one's peak at #17 and at #137 has any different meaning assuming both have played for a number of seasons.

51.6.161.113's main objection was that international golfers - who are disproportionately outside the top 25 - were being prejudiced against by a PGA Tour-biased rankings system. For what I presented above, it appears the opposite is the case. And as User:Nigej implied above, it is not our place to determine the legitimacy of OWGR. The International Federation of PGA Tours as well as the media have already determined that it is a legitimate source for the past 30+ years.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:31, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Ok, looks like we're not going to delve to the bottom depths of the top 200...

I think there are two more issues before OWGR is totally settled. They are...

1) McCormack... do we add these rankings?? I think we should.

2) the "Straddlers"... That is, guys who straddled the 1986 demarcation line between OWGR era and non-OWGR era. There are many golfers who turned pro before 1986 (usually in the 1970s) and reached their real peak before 1986. However we have included what I feel to be a misleading post-1986 peak. I feel that Christy O'Connor Jr is a good example of this.

Comments?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

PGA Tour Qualifying School

Does anyone have a list on all of the players that have graduated from PGA Tour Qualifying School? On our wiki page, PGA Tour Qualifying Tournament, we have a very detailed list of players who graduated to the PGA Tour from 1990-2012. However, the school started in 1965.

This is especially important to me as I intend to create a wiki page of all players who have joined tour in the modern era. If someone has access to newspapers.com that may seriously help out.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:20, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

If you're going to make such a list, I'd recommend defining the modern era as beginning in 1983 with the introduction of the "All-Exempt Tour". [8] pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 03:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you pʰeːnuːmuː! This is a good place to start. I was wondering if you or User: Jopal22 had more specific information. I noticed that Jopal created a very detailed list of this season's PGA Tour golfers with their exemption statuses. I was wondering if you had more information on this history.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:15, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Hi Oogglywoogly. Sorry don't know how to find info before 1990 on that. Good luck though. I'm looking forward to golf coming back soon. They've just opened golf courses in the UK, and every tee time is booked out! Jopal22 (talk) 18:15, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes they just re-opened golf courses here in Massachusetts. I think we were one of the final states to do this.

Thank you very much for your tour exemption page by the way! It is the best WikiProject Golf page I have seen.

For PGA Tour Q School qualifiers I think I will have to check out newspapers.com. They might have some stuff. I know there are a couple books about Q-School; they may have annual lists of guys who have "graduated" to the tour.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

A few years back when I went through and created the articles from 1998 back through 1990 (coinciding with the first Ben Hogan Tour graduating class), I used my local paper's archive as my source. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 04:17, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

some somewhat technical questions...

1) How do I create the "Dead Link" citation? For a lot of major championship links this is relevant.

2) How do I create the "Categories" section at the bottom on Wiki pages?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:07, 15 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

1. Use Template:Dead Link.

2. The category list is automatically created when you link a category (such as [[Category:Example]]). pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 07:48, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Miscellaneous questions

I have a number of miscellaneous questions that have been building up the past year. If anyone could help me answer them that would be great. They are below:

1) What was the money list/order of merit threshold to earn membership status for the next year? On the PGA Tour, starting in the 1960s or so, I think it began as top 60 on money list and then evolved into the top 125 during the 1980s. However I don't have any hard evidence for this.

As of 1972, it appears that the early European Tour (or British PGA) they had a threshold of top 50. The evidence I have is here. I actually have no hard evidence after this date what their threshold was. I believe now it around top 125 on the Dubai points list - but even that I'm not too sure of.

This is important because when I write articles about journeyman golfers this OoM threshold comes up quite frequently. For a while I assumed it was always top 125 (or close to that) but have realized more recently that this is probably not the case. (Specifically this came up in writing articles for Manuel Ballesteros and Nathaniel Crosby.) If anyone could provide more information that would be great.

2) Is there a way to determine the playing status of a retired golfer during certain seasons of their career? (For contemporary golfers it is clear on the website - under "Exempt Status." I am more concerned about retired golfers.) I usually assume if they have played at least 17 events in a season that they had full-time status. However I never know for sure. If you guys have any information on European Tour golfers too that would be helpful.

3) Finally, does anyone have good information about the the sequence of rounds during events in the mid-late 20th century. I am under the impression that many deviated from the Thursday-Sunday, one round a day norm. That is, some went Friday-one round, Saturday-one round, Sunday-two rounds. I know the British Open went Wednesday-Saturday, one round each day through the 70s or so. This came up when writing articles about players who seriously competed at the 1976 New South Wales PGA Championship. After reading the primary source for this tournament several times I am under the impression that the final two rounds were played on Sunday. (However I still do not know for sure and have avoided referring to the daily sequence of rounds in these articles.) I think they were other Australian/New Zealand tournaments from this era that may have utilized this sequence.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:12, 6 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

1) For the PGA Tour, it changed from top 60 to top 125 when the "All-Exempt Tour" model was introduced in 1983 (see the NYT article I linked in the previous section). Note that until 2000, non-members were included on the official money list; in some seasons the Top 125 cutoff for determining status the following year excluded non-members, but in other seasons it didn't.

The European Tour's current cutoff is top 110 excluding three types of members: affiliate members, members over 50, and members ranked in the OWGR top 50 who have played less than 25 regular ET events in their career. It's changed a couple times in the 6 years I've been following it, and I know it used to be top 115 excluding affiliate members. I don't really know anything about the ET cutoff before the late 90s.

2) The PGA Tour Statistical Inquiry System has information on status back through 1991. It can be accessed by going here and clicking the blue button before the page redirects. I don't know of any source for the ET.

3) I have no information on this. pʰeːnuːmuː →‎ pʰiːnyːmyː → ‎ɸinimi → ‎fiɲimi 05:47, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

3) It's worth remembering that if you go back far enough, 36 holes a day was expected of players. As Harry Vardon said "Don't play too much golf. Two rounds a day are plenty." As fields grew and play slowed down it became impractical to get everyone round twice in a single day, so the concept of a "cut" developed for 72 hole events, with 18 holes on the first two days and 36 holes on the third day with a smaller field. This was the norm for much of the 20th century. As to days of the week - it varied a lot in different countries. For instance, in England it was illegal to charge for entry on a Sunday in any sport until the law was changed in 1974 (although some sports bypassed the law in various ways), so most events finished on a Saturday. Over time the Thursday to Sunday event became dominant, mainly to suit TV coverage I suspect. Nigej (talk) 07:59, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

1) As with the PGA Tour, the European Tour order of merit threshold changed with the advent of the "all-exempt" tour in 1985, and I believe it was 120 for a long time (with a dozen or more exemption categories). The number of tournaments required for qualification for the OoM has also changed regularly over the years.
2) Would probably need to get hold of the tour old media guides, yearbooks or specialist golf magazines of the time. FWIW, the old ET website had much more detail in this regard (and in many other regards) than the new one, which is a pity.
3) Quite simply, the further back you go, the less of a "norm" there was. In 1960s and early 1970s on the British PGA circuit (which later evolved into the European Tour), many/most tournaments ran Thursday to Saturday ("qualifying rounds" on Thurs/Fri, followed by 36-holes on the Saturday) – from memory, aside from the Carrolls (in Ireland), I think the Open was the first to have a Sunday finish and then others followed from 1976 as the law had changed and money was to be made in gate receipts. Going further back, many tournaments were held midweek over one/two days with far smaller fields than we see now; this was because almost all pros worked club jobs which obviously demanded more time at weekends and they couldn't earn a living playing tournaments alone.
It's also worth noting that the British PGA barred assistant pros from entering almost all PGA tournaments until they had completed their apprenticeship. For a long time this was 5 years, later reduced to 2 years, then a few months, before the requirement was removed entirely. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:17, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for this information! It should be helpful!

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:20, 14 May 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

The PGA Tour also used to have a waiting period for new pros – six months until the 1970s/early 1980s (not 100% sure on the details). _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 11:05, 15 May 2020 (UTC)