Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements/PTG/Archive 1

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Archive 1

2021

So, a major problem. Additionally, the category scheme recently changed, so I've set up a new subpage for the 2020 scheme. Someone needs to set up a page for the 2013 scheme as well. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 11:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Why keep old scheme's, except for illuistration., We don 't need them to design do we? "2020" is all. -DePiep (talk) 11:42, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Likely for historical reasons. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 13:03, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes. "Alkalimetals2018" does it. -DePiep (talk) 17:45, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Jan 4 briefing

User:LaundryPizza03: I have made lots of edits, mostly technical to ease the editing (I hope).

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements/PTG/categories/2020 for examples:

A color set be defined & controlled through a set-definition page, like: Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements/PTG/set/2020.
The blind table can now easily be colored through {{Periodic table/ptg-blind|set=2020}}. Must be 2020 chemical cat scheme, will improve later (so one can change, as in eswiki: "Po is OM here").
I did not disrupt the header (I hope). What do you think about this pages-&-header ideas:

1. Each set definition (2020, 2021a) gets its own dedicated page (as 2020 has right now).

2. These are listed & linked in one theader tab (ie, current Scheme page).

3. The other header tab can be freed/removed/used for development discussion (eg comparing 2020 and eswiki). I find it not easy having to check two pages before I find part of the 2020 discussion/descrtiption.

4. Less improtant pagelinks can be improved in the header too.

Todo: the blind legend can read set definition too. Will happen.

Done

If you have other examples you want to see, please say so (dewiki?).

Any tech ideas/suggestions?

Have a nice edit, -DePiep (talk) 22:15, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

LP03 color set, 28 Dec 2020

@LaundryPizza03:: only now, I saw your proposal in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements § Category colors. You want me to make a full page for it, here? It's ~free :-) Set name like "28dec2020", or "LP03-28dec"? -DePiep (talk) 16:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements/PTG/categories/2020a. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 18:21, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

blind PT, '32-column' impression

A question, LaundryPizza03. I have created the blind PT into the "32-column" form, then removed some columns. My idea is to give the complete PT impression for this purpose. Do you think it is a good idea to evaluate the color sets?

See {{Periodic table/ptg-blind/sandbox}}. -DePiep (talk) 20:49, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, since the table displays formats where f-block is inline (as in the navbox) without being too wide. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 20:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

(editconflict) ...or shall I make a blind PT in 32-column form like the navbox is? {{Periodic table (navbox)}} -DePiep (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

jargon clarified: yes, f-block in line is the "32-column" form, f-block below is "18-column" form. -DePiep (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Dedicated "setname" page naming

PizzaLaundry03 This idea: rename dedicated pages like "/PTG/eswiki" into "/PTG/categories/eswiki", so that we can handle them better, automatically & systematically. Like? OK but not "/categories/..."?
I have added "STATUS" and "DOB" options to standard the set options [1], are there more useful ones? -DePiep (talk) 19:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

(sorry for the miswrinting of your name ... LP03)

Done Per set, the dedicated dscription & checking pages is now, like: "/PTG/categories/2020".

See /PTG/categories/..., should show all sdt-pages.

-DePiep (talk) 22:39, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

Jan 6 report

Dedicated page, like for "2020a", now in subpage /categories/ pattern Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Elements/PTG/categories/2020a.

Added top parameter to the Sets: |DESCR (already there), DOB, STATUS, LOG=.

...

-DePiep (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Jan 7 report

Created template "set-list" (short form of the Schemes page). Used in TPG-header (instead of big /scheme page block).
Created template "set-links": aline of links for eg "dewiki". Nice below the TOC I'd say.
Contrast table: added columns Lum, HSV, hue color show, RGB-decimal. Option |hsv=no for blank cells
dewiki SoM: uses full red, blue! (not green then), and grey d8d8d8. Set definition edited.

LP03, if you have any questions or things that can help: tell me. -DePiep (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

-DePiep (talk) 21:15, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Note to LP03: I think it is OK to choose a bit meaningful ID for any set. So, "2020a" could easily be "2020-light", "2020-lighter" or "2020-wl-AAA" (no spaces I suggest). I seriously will work to keep all info within reach. -DePiep (talk) 21:51, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Jan 8 report

Informed R8R [2]
Added sets "DP-2020-rainb" "DP-2020-chess" (DP=me, DePiep)
Cleanup & template improvements

-DePiep (talk) 22:48, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Jan 13 talk

Hi ~~User:PizzaLaundry03~~User:LaundryPizza03, sorry again. What, do you think, should we do first with this PTG?

Announce PTG at WT:ELEM (open up)

Stabilise these pages (less edits, & less moving around)

Propose at WT:ELEM to get rid of those State-of-matter fontcolorng

Discuss/evaluate your "2020a" CAtegory proposal?

-DePiep (talk) 21:33, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes, here at PTG:

The topic Categories (with headertab) now has its own talkpage.

The topic State-of-matter now has its own page, headertab and talkpage (issue is at hand).

Ping User:LaundryPizza03. -DePiep (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Jan 25: Up for Archive

I think about archiving this thread. The topic Categories is moot, and it is about initial development of this taskforce. -DePiep (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

2019–2020

much to do. -DePiep (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, it needs updating now that we've gone back to the 2010 scheme with no "unknown" category (albeit with a lighter color for the alkali metals.) –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 11:30, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Basic analysis

LaundryPizza03, I'd like to establish a list of analysis & checks we want to do for any color set. For example, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements/PTG/categories/2018 has some parts. Every set ("2018", "2020", "2021-A") best have its own page. Analysis:

Set id "2018"
Science needs (like number of categories)
Design principles, notes, descriptions
List of categories + their colors

legend with it (blind?)

blind table with it

A11Y contrast-checking (w3c) categories

vs. black font, wl-blue font

vs. State of Matter (SoM) font colors

add dummy text PT

A11Y Color Blind checks

External sitye to use?

Distinction checking

Can reader distinct category from neighbour? (by hexagonal graph?)

-DePiep (talk) 17:58, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

I got to the hexes. There are currently 3 blank pages for potential proposals, which I have dubbed 2021a, 2021b, and 2021c. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 02:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I see great setup improvements. I want to

(1) together develop a set of criteria (w3c contrast, color blind checks, distinction check); on page PTG

(2) build automated set-building (instead of c/p +set-edit all PT's & tables). For example module:PT graphics, standard blind table only to enter |set=2020b ;-) . Time-consumming...

-DePiep (talk) 09:55, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Hexagonals

LaundryPizza03 I creted the hexagonal graph to be able to look for the colors themselves, not to recognise a PT. That is, when PT-experienced readers (like us) see a PT, we tend to use patterns, subconsciously, we already know. In this case: category knowlegde. So I left out texts ('blind'), and the known category pattern. I also turned the pattern into vertical, all to disrupt our pre-knowlegde and focus on color configuration (eg neighbours, recognistion) only. I call this check "distinction", as we want colors so that the reader can distinct diffferent categories=colors, from each other, into, and from legend. -DePiep (talk) 10:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

... and now I found your 2020 one ;-) -DePiep (talk) 10:14, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Color blindness

I started with colorblind filters (Coblis site). I made three CB-filtered prints of the hexagonals (downloaded images). But I am not sure about copyright status, so did not upload to Commons for now. I contacted the webowner for clarification. -DePiep (talk) 16:08, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Recognition and distinction of map colors

I have added a new checking-criterium, Wikipedia:WikiProject Elements/PTG/graphics § Recognition and distinction.

For now, it is quantitative only. It is the opposite of w3c Contrast checking, as it asks for more extreme colors. Contrast conformance, OTOH, leads to more pastel/bleak colors (good for contrast, bad for recognition). -DePiep (talk) 18:31, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Color list

Why can't we create a module to automate the generation of color lists in the style of {{Element color/example}}? –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 17:55, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

The module I was working on has too much requirements. I'll make template, based on set. ([3] is too complicated to handle).)

Which column do you expect?

Order nr, Cat abbrev, cat name, bg color box, color rgb triplet, note(opt). -DePiep (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Design considerations

Some thoughts that might be used later in the process:

Rainbow or checkered?

The categories are a trend in the PT: from left to right, the metallishness changes equally in every period.

That would call for a "rainbow order of colors": left-to-right generally follows the color sequence of the rainbow.

However, since continuous colors look alike (eg in orange-red-purple), this may cause problems wihen recognising a category (color area). Also, going from map area color to legend color, to get the (color) category name, may cause mistakes. Also in the other direction: given a color in the legend, find the right map area (=elements in that category). This is more difficult when neighbouring colors look alike. Also, area-borders are more difficult to see.

So, we can apply "checkered order of colors": the same nine colors, alternate the hues left-to-right. Say, red-green-orange-blue.

In the 2020 set, the reds are ~rainbow ordered (together), and the yellow/green/blue are checkered. -DePiep (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Forget SoM fontcolors

We must satisfy the contrast rules (w3c rules) for fontcolor-on-backgroundcolor. For sure, these fonts are black, and wl-blue (wikilik).

When we add extra fontcolors, (as we do with the State-of-Matter fontcolors), there appear extra limitations to fulfil contrast rules (see /PTG/categories/2020#Font_contrast, green, grey, red font checks).

We should consider dropping the SoM fontcolors altogether. -DePiep (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

re by LP03

I have some points:

I agree that the SoM colors should be dropped in favor of pictograms, like how Timeline of the far future uses pictograms by subject area.
AN should be a darker shade similar to LN, since they are the heavier homolog
Disparate lightnesses make an aesthetically
Another possibility could be a scheme derived from the CPK coloring: AM purple; AEM green; HAL yellow; NG cyan.
Wikilinks contrast rather poorly against hues from roughly sky-blue to orange, except. Hence we will have to choose a pastel-like scheme unless we use only colors from approximately gold to cyan.

Here's a protoype of what each scheme might look like when we take the minimum AAA for blue and approximately matching that lighness:

Caption text
CAT	Rainbow	Checkered	CPK-like
AM
AEM
LN
AN
TM
OM
MOID
ONM
HAL
NG
UNK
(SA)

Conclusion: I prefer a checkered coloring scheme. I wonder if the background for {{Periodic table}} and the large version should be changed to white. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 10:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

My replies, DePiep Jan 7

- Tension building: how end the sentence "Disparate lightnesses make an aesthetically ... "? ;-)

- CPK coloring: they color elements (OK), and don't have to check text contrast. Sure then one can pick tough colors! We have a bigger fish to fry. IF I see your table right, it does not give extra solutions.

Introducing outside 'cultural' color sets does not help, is my string experience. This is why we got the dark red for alkali metals: "associates with fire" (true history). INstead, the required 10 colors between themselves (by visual effect only) are tough enough to solve.

- Yep, checkered has my preference too. This point is even stronger when checking CB filters. I also agree that the LN and AN colors can be near similar hue but play with tones (S, V in HSV). Actually, in private I already employed & published this idea ;-) later more.

- SoM font coloring (SoM or anything else): yes, to be dropped. Better in dedicated article (webelements.com idea). In a generic PT, phase info does not help or add much (and indeed, in my private PT I used symbols. Even better recognition in the overview).

WT:ELEM is a bit battered recently, so we cannot proceed at full speed (discussion proposals). I don't mind patience, I want this taslforce to be solid based.

All the best. -DePiep (talk) 21:44, 7 January 2021 (UTC)