Wikipedia talk:Noted not notable

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Excellent idea for an essay, maybe groundwork for a WP change. Will be chipping in as and when. Irondome (talk) 22:27, 30 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

But where to begin? I came up with "notoriety" in the current discussion (the WP:Village pump (policy) page). But this seems to be defined as being famous for unacceptable behavior [1]. It could be the meaning is shifting in the English vernacular (of some countries) and dictionary definitions have not caught up, because I thought of it as approximating "notability". I think of "notorious" as having this dictionary meaning. I just looked it up, and it is very much the same meaning as "notoriety." [2]. --Steve Quinn (talk) 03:37, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll throw out an example of this. In the early 20th century, a guy moved from Germany to Ethiopia & started a general store; I have found him mentioned independently in a surprising number of books about Ethiopia -- & not those of the "travelogue" genre. In fact, I found enough information about him that one could write a surprisingly lengthy article about him. But not only did I avoid writing any such article, I would happily nominate for deletion that article if it were written. The reason is simple: although he's someone noted, with sufficient reliable sources about his life, he is not notable. He's just a storekeeper; that's all he did with his life, like millions of other people who have run a grocery store. And considering just how difficult I found it to find information about Ethiopia-related people who were clearly notable -- cabinet ministers, generals, important historical figures -- I couldn't in good faith write an article about him. (PS -- No, I am not going to provide his name. Because WP:BEANS. If you disagree with me, go read a few dozen books about Ethiopia & see if you can find him. But be sure to add some of the information about Ethiopia you find to Wikipedia: I can attest there are more prominent areas of omission about that country than one white settler.) -- llywrch (talk) 17:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. From your description, he's notable by WP standards, and (as this essay-to-be is intended to explain) that exactly because he's noted. I'm sorry about the cabinet ministers, but the lack of noted-ness on them doesn't make this guy non-notable. E Eng 17:05, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Then the WP standards are broken. The man was only a fricking shopkeeper; all he did with his life was sell foodstuffs & dry goods. Never had a more significant effect on Ethiopian society or culture. If anything, his frequent mentions were due to unconscious racism at the time, when people found the activities of a white man more noteworthy than anything a person of color did. Even in Africa. -- llywrch (talk) 17:19, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I haven't seen exactly what the sources say; maybe they're WP:ROUTINE and he's not notable after all. But that's got nothing to do with the cabinet ministers and so on. (I suspect they're notable too under WP standards, just via non-English sources, which makes it hard to find an editor willing to do the necessary work to fashion an article.) E Eng 18:50, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]