Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 54
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Renewed proposal for association football (soccer)
Hello, everyone. As you all know, there had been a RfC on modifying most of N:SPORTS, including that the notability guideline for association football had been removed. I have noticed some different proposals based on GiantSowman's, RadomCanadian's and Fred Zepelin's proposals, but they could still not find a clear consensus on these conflicting proposals based what to include on N:SPORTS and N:FOOTY, and there has not been any consensus since then. Even in here which GiantSnowman made a draft proposal on has been unaddressed, and hasn't continued addressing that issue since then. So I have renewed the the following proposal regarding significant coverage, and for the sake of general notability guideline:
Proposal
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Significant coverage is likely to exist for association football (soccer) figures if they meet the following: Significant coverage is likely to exist for players if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for coaches if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for referees if:
Players and/or managers who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. A listing of other competitions wherein participation may lead to significant coverage is maintained by the WP:FOOTY wikiproject, at leagues listed here. Assistant referees may not be counted to meet the criteria unless it satisfies with further proof to meet the W:GNG. Referees who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. A listing of other competitions where they may lead to significant coverage is maintained by the WP:FOOTY wikiproject, at leagues listed here. |
The discussions on this page about referees and other sports officials in other general sports whom should meet the notability criteria will be discussed in the near future, concurrently with the Wiki Project Referees, if necessary.
That would be all for that. I also would recommend that if you can share your thoughts, whether you support, or oppose that proposal to sustain that consensus. I know that I felt like I'm repeating myself again, but I am open to hear your opinions. If you support or oppose this proposal, let me know here, or if you have a question to add on this proposal, please let me know here, or leave a reply on my talk page for further questions. Thank you all, and have a peaceful day. Cheers. Ivan Milenin (talk) 04:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is there data supporting the proposal? Cbl62 (talk) 04:46, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: There used to be a guideline for association football, but due to that previous RfC, they had removed it entirely. Ivan Milenin (talk) 04:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- I am aware of the RfC, but that doesn't answer my question. Is there data? Cbl62 (talk) 05:12, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: To that question, I'm not sure I was clear on that. Can you elaborate that for a bit? Ivan Milenin (talk) 05:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- I am aware of the RfC, but that doesn't answer my question. Is there data? Cbl62 (talk) 05:12, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- @Cbl62: There used to be a guideline for association football, but due to that previous RfC, they had removed it entirely. Ivan Milenin (talk) 04:50, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- I would support this but I would propose a minor amendment to the referees category to include any referee who has officiated in the primary national cup final (ie. FA Cup, Copa del Rey etc. but not EFL Cup, EFL Trophy etc.). Even if this amendment isn't adopted, I'd still support the proposal. The C of E God Save the King! (talk) 05:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- @The C of E Of course the FA Cup. If that is adopted, I will try to convince them as much as possible to add the FA Cup and/or the Copa de Rey finals to that matter. No hard feelings. :) Ivan Milenin (talk) 05:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Since your last posting of the same proposal in June (as well as a precursor at the policy village pump in May), both of which resulted in a failure to attain consensus support, I haven't seen any evidence that the community's views have changed. isaacl (talk) 05:23, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is it because GiantSnowman has yet to discuss this matter further? Ivan Milenin (talk) 05:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Consensus in the previous discussion was not determined by the participation of a single editor, so no. isaacl (talk) 06:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is it because GiantSnowman has yet to discuss this matter further? Ivan Milenin (talk) 05:30, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose This proposal still includes the phrase "and other leagues listed here" which links to all the minor professional leagues that were the cause of all the trouble in the first place. Until that phrase is removed this is a non-starter IMO. Nigej (talk) 06:07, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Here's something that I want you to note: the leagues will be discussed further on, and based on your concerns, this is not listed to the entire list of the historical fully professional leagues. As you pointed out, I have shortened the leagues to big countries to countries that can develop their leagues to their potential to make the list simpler. Ivan Milenin (talk) 06:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Two points. 1. It's going to be unacceptable to have a link from here to a list. We need the list here so that changes can be monitored by the community as a whole. 2. The list still includes a long list of leagues that its going to be virtually impossible to demonstrate that a high/very high proportion are notable, especially those who only played one game. Nigej (talk) 06:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is it fair to say that could I make a few amendments to add a list of leagues to the proposal to satisfy your concerns? And which leagues do you believe should be added or removed? Ivan Milenin (talk) 06:57, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that a "few amendments" is going to be enough. Better to remove them all at this stage IMO. I'm no expert on football but (for instance) I'm very doubtful that the old third/fourth divisions of English football should be included. Nigej (talk) 07:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Is it fair to say that could I make a few amendments to add a list of leagues to the proposal to satisfy your concerns? And which leagues do you believe should be added or removed? Ivan Milenin (talk) 06:57, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Two points. 1. It's going to be unacceptable to have a link from here to a list. We need the list here so that changes can be monitored by the community as a whole. 2. The list still includes a long list of leagues that its going to be virtually impossible to demonstrate that a high/very high proportion are notable, especially those who only played one game. Nigej (talk) 06:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Here's something that I want you to note: the leagues will be discussed further on, and based on your concerns, this is not listed to the entire list of the historical fully professional leagues. As you pointed out, I have shortened the leagues to big countries to countries that can develop their leagues to their potential to make the list simpler. Ivan Milenin (talk) 06:19, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Strong oppose There has absolutely no evidence been presented that shows that playing in any of these competitions is a very good indicator of athletes passing WP:GNG. Unless there is some research done that can indicates that 95% of players who play in these competitions have the significant coverage to pass WP:GNG, then this proposal should be thoroughly rejected. Alvaldi (talk) 09:40, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Strong oppose and speedy close. Nothing has changed since the previous discussion. Any proposal with participation based criteria has almost zero chance of being accepted. Repeatedly proposing the same unacceptable criteria is just a waste of everyone's time. wjematherplease leave a message... 10:15, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Consensus can change. I'm still undecided, but let this discussion run its course, do not speedily close. Smartyllama (talk) 10:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Consensus on participation based criteria is not changing any time soon. wjematherplease leave a message... 10:45, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Consensus can change. I'm still undecided, but let this discussion run its course, do not speedily close. Smartyllama (talk) 10:41, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose: We deprecated participation criteria. Period. Indeed, consensus can change, but this is what, the fifth or sixth try in less than a year to reverse the decision, proffering nothing new beyond a tacit "We hate the result and really want it to go away now?" Ravenswing 17:14, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: It seems that discussion might be fading, which to is not surprising. Why I have made those proposals to begin with? Because I know this sport is incredibly important, and it would be indeed questionable to see which players, and coaches and et cetera would pass significant coverage and pass GNG. So, I have decided to put up some scenarios from my original proposal below:
Original draft proposal
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Significant coverage is likely to exist for association football (soccer) figures if they meet the following: Significant coverage is likely to exist for players if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for coaches if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for referees if:
Players and/or managers who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. A listing of other competitions wherein participation may lead to significant coverage is maintained by the WP:FOOTY wikiproject, at leagues listed here. Assistant referees may not be counted to meet the criteria unless it satisfies with further proof to meet the W:GNG. Referees who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. A listing of other competitions where they may lead to significant coverage is maintained by the WP:FOOTY wikiproject, at leagues listed here. |
Proposal 1
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Significant coverage is likely to exist for association football (soccer) figures if they meet the following: Significant coverage is likely to exist for players if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for coaches if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for referees if:
Table of leaguesThis is adapted from WP:FPL. Men's leagues
Women's leagues
Players and/or managers who do not meet the above could still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. Referees who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. Assistant referees may not be counted to meet the criteria unless it satisfies with further proof to meet the W:GNG. |
Proposal 2
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Significant coverage is likely to exist for association football (soccer) figures if they meet the following: Significant coverage is likely to exist for players if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for coaches if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for referees if:
Table of leaguesThis is adapted from WP:FPL. Men's leagues
Women's leagues
Players and/or managers who do not meet the above co still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. Referees who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. Assistant referees may not be counted to meet the criteria unless it satisfies with further proof to meet the W:GNG. |
Proposal 3
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Significant coverage is likely to exist for association football (soccer) figures if they meet the following: Significant coverage is likely to exist for players if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for coaches if:
Significant coverage is likely to exist for referees if:
Table of leaguesThis is adapted from WP:FPL. Men's leagues
Women's leagues
Players and/or managers who do not meet the above could still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. Referees who do not meet the above may still be notable, although sources should not be assumed to exist without further proof. Assistant referees may not be counted to meet the criteria unless it satisfies with further proof to meet the W:GNG. |
I did these as I realized that indeed the participation criteria has scrapped, and I decided to improve the idea be scenarios to those proposals, as the World Cup is coming up this month, which I am looking forward to.
If anybody has opinions about these proposals, let me know, and I will see you there. Ivan Milenin (talk) 03:45, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose It is likely that there will be coverage of all players who do play in the Premier League and several of the other top-tier leagues. That said, significant coverage from independent sources is expected for a stand-alone article and since this is an international encyclopedia, we need an objective standard (recognizing there will be biases in any standard) to determine notability, especially presumed notability. --Enos733 (talk) 05:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose: "We deprecated participation criteria. Period. Indeed, consensus can change, but this is what, the fifth or sixth try in less than a year to reverse the decision, proffering nothing new beyond a tacit "We hate the result and really want it to go away now?"" Nothing here changes my opinion from a couple weeks ago, and continued attempts to propose participation-based criteria seems to me to be just bashing one's head against a stone wall and expecting that Any Time Now the wall will fall. Too many of us have seen too many thousands of sub-stub soccer articles; enough. Rely on the GNG already, and do the damn work to properly source new article creations at the time they're created, or don't create the articles. Ravenswing 09:21, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose any and all proposals without evidence, and those that contain basic participation-based criteria. If a new guideline is needed, I suggest renewing the discussion at the footy project. Either way this persistent proposing of (essentially) the same unacceptable criteria has to stop. wjematherplease leave a message... 09:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose There is no evidence that proves that these criterias are a good indicator of notability. Alvaldi (talk) 11:47, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- No. Lacks data to support it. Cbl62 (talk) 14:34, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- If a football proposal is ever to succeed, proponents need to be more realistic. First off, you will need actual data. Second, perhaps it would be more realistic, at least initially, to limit such proposals to the leagues where every player can easily be shown to meet SIGCOV, e.g. Premier League and maybe Bundesliga and La Liga. Cbl62 (talk) 14:43, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Oppose This really is a waste of everyone's effort. The proposer notes that "the participation criteria has scrapped" and then comes up with proposals which have "They have played in ..." followed by a long list of leagues - clearly a participation criteria. Either the participation criteria need to be removed completely or good evidence needs to be provided that they accurately predict notability. I know some people are opposed to participation criteria completely. Personally I'm not in that camp: what I need to see is good evidence that they actually predict notability, and that is completely lacking. Nigej (talk) 14:39, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
CommentI am struggling to understand how it is more notable to have played in the Serie C than to have taken part in the Olympic Games. Olympic stubs are getting redirected rather often at the moment. As to me we could redirect the Serie C players as well if they didn't accomplish something more prominent later.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 16:50, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Paradise Chronicle: Is it fair to say that concerning that players that played in Serie C may not be notable, that should be removed from the third proposal? My intention for the third one is for the players and coaches who played and coached at one of the top two highest notable leagues can be deemed notable. Could that be the case? Ivan Milenin (talk) 19:31, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- It's rather a moot point anyway. This should have been closed weeks ago, with an overwhelming consensus to oppose. Ravenswing 23:10, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- I praise your aim to bring some order but I believe you have overwhelmed the community with your suggestion. Even if now 5 editors vote support, that's not a support. There is just no interest yet. The five opposes are a sign that you need to find a better venue and formulate better what your aim is. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 17:05, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- A fundamental problem is that
players and coaches who played and coached at one of the top two highest notable leagues can be deemed notable
is not true. First, determine what is true. Then, make a proposal. Levivich (talk) 17:19, 3 December 2022 (UTC)- I'll tell you what's true, the players who have played, and coaches who have coached, for example in the Premier League (England), La Liga (Spain), and Bundesliga (Germany) have significant coverage, and are very important in various club competitions, and a been incredibly important in a very popular sport, which have high coverage in the media. That's number one. Number two: The World Cup, which is ongoing as of right now, have players and coaches, inclusive of referees whom they have articles created on Wikipedia, even if participation criteria have been scrapped entirely, which I understood. Finally, I'm stressing my point that I made those proposal based on the player criteria, the coaches, and the referee criteria, which listed the guidelines for every soccer player, coach, and referee, shown above, as I showed to everyone above whether they meet the guidlines or not.
- I'm here to tell you that I'm neither advocate of including every player, coach, and/or referees, nor an inclusionsit, as it sound it seems, but I've made three choices on those proposals because I know this discussion will get heated, as expected, which is no surprise, but this is all "unaddressed". That is all I can say to you. It did sound strongly harsh reply, but that is the point. Ivan Milenin (talk) 19:16, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- The discussion isn't going to get heated, because the issue was settled weeks ago, and just about everyone's moved on. It is indeed the case that there are many soccer figures that have significant coverage, and if they do, they pass the GNG: no issue there. Ravenswing 22:09, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think it's true that there is significant coverage from independent reliable sources for every single player who ever played for Premier/La Liga/Bundesliga or the World Cup. I've never seen any editor attempt to demonstrate that it's true. (To demonstrate that it's true, find the least experienced player on the worst team and show that this player nevertheless received WP:SIGCOV.) Levivich (talk) 00:56, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: Here's one: Jonah Ebanks, he is the one that was nominated to be deleted, but resulted to be kept because they said there are sources that has SIGCOV and therefore passes GNG. Does that click your mind? Ivan Milenin (talk) 05:51, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- No, he has the 2nd-most goals on the team, that's not "the least experienced player on the worst team". ("Worst team" means the worst record, I don't know which team that is. I don't mean it disparagingly.) Levivich (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: San Marino is one of them. Let's try... Pietro Sopranzi for example. How's that? Ivan Milenin (talk) 06:02, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- Actually, how about a real test? Let's take the year Wikipedia was founded, the teams finishing the bottom of the table in the Premier League, Ligue 1, La Liga, the Bundesliga and Serie A, and representative players appearing in only a single match for each. Wikipedia was founded in 2001. Looking up the respective articles, those teams were (respectively) Bradford City, RC Strasbourg, CD Numancia, VfL Bochum and SSC Bari.
- Of those teams, there are season articles and stats for a couple of them. Adam Hardy was the only one to play just a single game for Bradford, and perhaps not coincidentally, the only one on the roster without a WP article. For Bochum, three guys appeared in just a single game, all have articles, and two have resumes such that I wouldn't normally question their notability. The third is Sascha Siebert, and he had a spotty and not very lengthy career in lower-tier leagues; that one match was the only top-flight game he played. The article's sole source is to one of those databases, and it's been notability tagged for eight years now ... another one of those many, many, many soccer bios where the editor racked up a single cheap creation edit and walked away for good.
- Those interested in chasing down the low-hanging fruit from those other three seasons, go for it. (And, by the bye, I picked out perhaps the most prestigious five leagues in the world. Who's going to suggest that the last scrubs on the bottom-feeders rosters in 1997 for (say) the Costa Rican Liga FPD, the Australian National Soccer League, the South African Premier Soccer League and the Norwegian Tippeligaen are notable? Ravenswing 07:10, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Ivan Milenin, I follow your rationale, but in my experience you are aiming way too high if you want top delete players who actually played in international matches. Check Andrea Rinaldi a player who played for 8 Minutes in Serie C and was also kept (the rest in Serie D) and was called for a national U something team but never played. We need to find a better argument.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:31, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Paradise Chronicle I'll take your word for it, but I'm not for deleting players, nor including them, I'm just here to find a common ground to addresses all of their concerns in this discussion, whatever it takes. Ivan Milenin (talk) 08:44, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: San Marino is one of them. Let's try... Pietro Sopranzi for example. How's that? Ivan Milenin (talk) 06:02, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- No, he has the 2nd-most goals on the team, that's not "the least experienced player on the worst team". ("Worst team" means the worst record, I don't know which team that is. I don't mean it disparagingly.) Levivich (talk) 05:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
- @Levivich: Here's one: Jonah Ebanks, he is the one that was nominated to be deleted, but resulted to be kept because they said there are sources that has SIGCOV and therefore passes GNG. Does that click your mind? Ivan Milenin (talk) 05:51, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Is being a paraclimber on a national team notable?
I was trying to work out the notability for climbers but there are none (there are guidelines at Wikipedia:WikiProject Climbing/Article recommendations#Notability, but they are not part of WP:N)
Matt White (paraclimber) is a paraclimber on the British paraclimbing team, however, outside of this he has almost zero WP:SIGCOV in any decent national British RS. He is an unknown in the wider climbing world (even in the British climbing world), and has no coverage in the "climbing media" (outside of listing his results in competitions).
Are there technical reasons why he would pass WP:N, or should this go to AfD? Aszx5000 (talk) 10:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Aszx5000 Significant coverage is what makes him notable so if there is no significant coverage found regarding him then the odds are that he isn't notable. There is not inherit notability from being part of the British paraclimbing team, or any other team for that matter. Alvaldi (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- ... or the very short answer: No. There aren't. This should go to AfD. Ravenswing 17:57, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- As of the current NSPORTS requirements, all biography articles must meet the General Notability Guideline, meaning significant coverage in major reliable sources. So, as you noted, if there's no SIGCOV to be found, then he is inherently non-notable per the requirements. AfD is the way to go here and there's the slight possibility that someone in that discussion will be able to dig up actual SIGCOV. SilverserenC 18:14, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks all for the above. Yes, I could not find any SIGCOV for this person, outside of passing mentions of recordings of their results. Don't feel good about sending a para-athlete to AfD though. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- (shrugs) Shouldn't feel differently than from any other kind of athlete. Ravenswing 21:36, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Nobody is forcing you to do it. If you don't want to see the content deleted, don't send it to AfD Garuda3 (talk) 08:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks all for the above. Yes, I could not find any SIGCOV for this person, outside of passing mentions of recordings of their results. Don't feel good about sending a para-athlete to AfD though. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
Last sentence of first paragraph
The last sentence of the first paragraph says that all articles under this guideline must have at least one source indicating GNG. However, the closure of the RfC said "all sports biographies" must have at least one source indicating GNG (emphasis mine) and this is not an insignificant difference given several participants had BLP concerns that would not apply to an article about a season or a team. If we want to extend it to all sports articles, that is fine, and we can discuss that here, but we should either come to that consensus or change the sentence so it actually reflects the closure. I take no position for now except that in the event we fail to reach a consensus in this discussion one way or the other, it should be changed to reflect the previous consensus (biographies only) as that is what we actually decided previously. I may have additional comments later. Smartyllama (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'd support extending it to all sports articles (and all non-sports articles, too). I also believe that WP:GNG already covers all articles, including all sports articles. GNG is the default unless an SNG says otherwise (e.g., WP:NPROF, WP:NCORP). WP:MASSCREATE also requires at least one GNG source per a 2022 RFC Although that applies only to mass-created articles, I think all indications are that the last sentence of the first paragraph of WP:NSPORTS has consensus, based on these two RFCs from last year, one for biographies and one for mass-created articles. So, IMO, WP:NSPORTS should continue to say "The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline". Levivich (talk) 20:30, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- GNG only requires the sources to exist, not that they actually be cited in the article. I'd argue in cases where sources can be found to exist but are not cited in the article, the article should still be kept on GNG grounds, but I've seen AFDs closed both ways in those cases. And there's a much stronger argument for deleting the article in those circumstances when it's a BLP then when it's about a team or season. So I don't think this statement is equivalent to GNG. Smartyllama (talk)
- I am in agreement that there should be consistency within the SNG. I think the references should reflect the close of WP:NSPORTS2022. Specifically, I think the sentence should read: "The article must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources." --Enos733 (talk) 20:48, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- To clarify, the 2022 RFC was specifically drafted to mandate the inclusion of at least one example of SIGCOV in all "sports biographies", not all sports articles. This portion of the RFC was intended to address widespread concerns with mass creation of sub-stub sports biographies sourced only to a database entry. This portion of the RFC passed and resulted in the addition of the following sentence to subpart 5 of WP:SPORTBASIC: "Sports biographies must include at least one reference to a source providing significant coverage of the subject, excluding database sources." Cbl62 (talk) 13:03, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
Volleyball notability?
I think it could be valuable to create a proposal for volleyball athletes. There is nothing in WP:N about volleyball and I think coming to a consensus on criteria that would deem a volleyball player notable would be beneficial. Is playing in multiple competitive professional seasons and competitions notable? Are there certain achievements necessary? Any thoughts and ideas ? HennSw123 (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- HennSw123 Note that this guideline is no longer a hard list of criteria for the sports listed, but a list of criteria for which it is expected that sources will be available in order to meet WP:GNG. What aspects of volleyball generate coverage in reliable sources? (world championships, Olympics, etc.) 331dot (talk) 12:47, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- @HenSw123: First, check if there is enough reliable, independent source material to create a reasonable biography of a volleyball athlete. Things like books, magazine articles, journal articles, newspaper articles, etc. from reliable sources and which cover all aspects of the volleyball athlete's life in sufficient detail that some reasonably comprehensive summary of their life could be written. Once you have found that, you know the person is notable enough for a Wikipedia article. If you can't find that source material, then they are not notable. I hope that clarifies things for you. --Jayron32 13:12, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah makes sense. Coverage for volleyball especially in Europe where a lot of these players play professional is quite different than other sports such as mlb, nba, nfl, etc. in America. I work on a lot of the stubs in the volleyball community and run across articles where players are in the stages of their careers where they have some notability and are likely to get more but thought that have some guideline of in WP:N for volleyball could benefit. HennSw123 (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- At this point, I'd oppose the creation of new sports notability criteria generally. With a widespread move towards just relying on the GNG, that's the easiest way to avoid difficulties. Can Soandso volleyball player meet the GNG? Great, then an article for them can be sustained. Ravenswing 03:24, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- There's a good reason for this. The GNG is about assuring that it's possible to write a decent encyclopedia article about the subject. That's all. We shouldn't be creating new articles about topics which have no hope of ever being a reasonable encyclopedia article. WP:GNG just says "don't write an article unless you are sure the source material exists upon which to base such an article". We went astray of that when we tried to create reasons to bypass the GNG and give people license to start creating articles that have no chance of being anything.--Jayron32 13:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Its possible to write a decent article on someone who's not a GNG pass. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- It isn't though, at least not one that passes Wikipedia policy. I mean, I can write a well-written article about myself, at least grammatically correct, and complete, and narratively compelling. However, it isn't verifiable to independent, reliable sources. That's the point, if you obey the core principles of Wikipedia you can't create a reasonable stand-alone without enough verifiable information to add to the article. To wit " All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources," That's all the GNG says: without the sources, don't create the article. --Jayron32 17:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- I still disagree. For example, it could be argued that a recent player kept at afd, Stan Robb, failed GNG (I argued for a pass of NBIO) – but just look at how the article turned out. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:14, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how they failed GNG, there's numerous reliable sources in the article which discuss the player. There's entire paragraphs of text, and it's all sourced to reliable, independent sources. That passes GNG with flying colors. Of course, one can argue anything. It doesn't make them right. --Jayron32 18:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Then there was also this article that I wrote that was determined through AFD to have failed GNG (although I disagreed). That looked pretty decent before redirection, wouldn't you say? BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how they failed GNG, there's numerous reliable sources in the article which discuss the player. There's entire paragraphs of text, and it's all sourced to reliable, independent sources. That passes GNG with flying colors. Of course, one can argue anything. It doesn't make them right. --Jayron32 18:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- I still disagree. For example, it could be argued that a recent player kept at afd, Stan Robb, failed GNG (I argued for a pass of NBIO) – but just look at how the article turned out. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:14, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Well, no kidding: I can write an absolutely splendid, detailed article about my wife. As Jayron32 says, though, it would not be verifiable to independent, reliable sources, none of which describe her in detail, and that's why she wouldn't qualify for a Wikipedia article. (This is my full-scale rant on the subject.) Whether you disagree or not is utterly irrelevant -- I can think of any number of policies that would be far different were Jimbo to appoint me Dictator of Wikipedia tomorrow, and my "disagreements" which run contrary to settled policy are just howling in the wind. We are all bound to the policies and guidelines in place. That you don't like the result of last year's NSPORTS RfC is obvious, but its outcome is the basis for sports notability all the same. Ravenswing 19:55, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Not to mention even the sourced info likely wouldn't be DUE. Anyone can prosify some bare stats or cobble together a biography from mundane local newspaper coverage and obits; doesn't mean it's encyclopedic or adherent to NPOV. That's how we get articles with four paragraphs on someone's state HS records and college acceptance hype, two paragraphs on their college career, and a couple sentences on their subsequent office job, but nothing demonstrating they received more than fleeting regional attention for low-level achievements. College and especially high school stats really shouldn't be in any articles unless they've been discussed years later in places outside their home region; certainly they shouldn't be sourced only to databases or local newspapers where every match/result is reported. And yet these seem to be the go-to data for fluffing up bios of contemporary athletes with no actual claim to notability. JoelleJay (talk) 21:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Quite. Take the laundry list of my personal achievements listed in that link. Many are verifiable -- I can link to Amazon, corporate or WorldCat sites for everything I published. I can provide information for the times I was written up in newspapers, as well as for the local concert series I produced. The election results for the public office I held were published, and remain on the municipal website. The published documents of the World Science Fiction Society record my participation as a Worldcon speaker and moderator. All that and more (every time I made the Dean's List in college or high school made it into a newspaper) can be sourced. And I don't qualify for a Wikipedia article either -- all of that, barring substantive coverage, is just as unmemorable as Some Dude whose sole claim to fame is that he pitched a couple unnoticed innings for the Monumentals in 1884. Ravenswing 01:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I am fine with the decision to subject athlete biographies to GNG/SIGCOV requirements, but we should at the same resist efforts (as reflected in Joelle's post above) to impose even stricter standards for athletes than exist for politicians, academics, and other biographies. First, there is no GNG exclusion on the use of "obituaries", provided they are "independent" (not family-submitted death notices) and appear in reliable sources. Second, Joelle's advocacy above for barring the use of "mundane local coverage" is deeply problematic. There is no GNG exclusion on the use of local coverage (or requiring "regional" coverage) except in WP:AUD which is expressly limited to corporations. (I would agree that hyperlocal coverage from a small-town newspaper should not get the same weight as a major metropolitan daily newspaper, but Joelle's proposal would apparently exclude both sorts of coverage as "local"). And who gets to decide what is "mundane" (i.e., "lacking interest or excitement; dull")? Third, the assertion that college-level statistical achievements should be excluded from biographies is baseless -- many contemporary athletes are notable for collegiate sports, so why in the world would we ban articles on these athletes from including their most notable achievements? (For example, does anyone really believe that a Chase Brown biography should omit reference to his 1,643 rushing yards in 2022 because it hasn't been discussed outside his region "years later")? Cbl62 (talk) 14:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Mm, you're going for the extremes. Indeed, many contemporary athletes are notable for collegiate sports ... "notable," that is, for outstanding achievement which receives wide coverage in the press. Nor is anyone with half a brain claiming that college stats be debarred from appearing in articles; that's just an absurd premise to toss out. What JoelleJay (and I) mean is that such stats do not form any basis for notability. Ravenswing 20:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
"College and especially high school stats really shouldn't be in any articles unless they've been discussed years later in places outside their home region."
I agree it's an absurd premise. Cbl62 (talk) 20:19, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- My comment was a rebuttal to the claim that one can write a "decent article" on an athlete without them meeting GNG. Basically what I am saying is that just because one can create a moderately-lengthy detailed biography out of non-GNG-contributing sources doesn't mean it's encyclopedically worthy. The obits in this scenario would of course be non-independent submissions, and the mundane local coverage would be things of strictly local interest, like announcements, write-ups of town events, brief blurbs on people honored for minor things, etc. If a newspaper profiles the owner of every new business, provides a recap of most sports matches, records the goings-on of every committee meeting, yadda yadda, then such material is routine and should not appear in the article (let alone be used for notability).
- Regarding the stats, maybe I should have made it clearer that this is predicated on the subject not having received clear non-regional GNG coverage during college. If they're already notable for their college career then obviously their college stats are DUE. But the vast, vast majority of athletes around the world are not notable for their college records despite them being mentioned in local press at the time they're made. So even if they're later notable for their pro career, if no one outside the home area has later remarked on their sophomore NAIA Frontier Conference year-end record then it shouldn't be mentioned. And that should also be the case if the non-notable (or notable-for-unrelated-things) subject didn't advance beyond college/amateur level; it doesn't suddenly become DUE just because there's no other coverage to fill out a biography. JoelleJay (talk) 21:09, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying, Joelle. Context is everything. Cbl62 (talk) 02:06, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- Mm, you're going for the extremes. Indeed, many contemporary athletes are notable for collegiate sports ... "notable," that is, for outstanding achievement which receives wide coverage in the press. Nor is anyone with half a brain claiming that college stats be debarred from appearing in articles; that's just an absurd premise to toss out. What JoelleJay (and I) mean is that such stats do not form any basis for notability. Ravenswing 20:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- I am fine with the decision to subject athlete biographies to GNG/SIGCOV requirements, but we should at the same resist efforts (as reflected in Joelle's post above) to impose even stricter standards for athletes than exist for politicians, academics, and other biographies. First, there is no GNG exclusion on the use of "obituaries", provided they are "independent" (not family-submitted death notices) and appear in reliable sources. Second, Joelle's advocacy above for barring the use of "mundane local coverage" is deeply problematic. There is no GNG exclusion on the use of local coverage (or requiring "regional" coverage) except in WP:AUD which is expressly limited to corporations. (I would agree that hyperlocal coverage from a small-town newspaper should not get the same weight as a major metropolitan daily newspaper, but Joelle's proposal would apparently exclude both sorts of coverage as "local"). And who gets to decide what is "mundane" (i.e., "lacking interest or excitement; dull")? Third, the assertion that college-level statistical achievements should be excluded from biographies is baseless -- many contemporary athletes are notable for collegiate sports, so why in the world would we ban articles on these athletes from including their most notable achievements? (For example, does anyone really believe that a Chase Brown biography should omit reference to his 1,643 rushing yards in 2022 because it hasn't been discussed outside his region "years later")? Cbl62 (talk) 14:32, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Quite. Take the laundry list of my personal achievements listed in that link. Many are verifiable -- I can link to Amazon, corporate or WorldCat sites for everything I published. I can provide information for the times I was written up in newspapers, as well as for the local concert series I produced. The election results for the public office I held were published, and remain on the municipal website. The published documents of the World Science Fiction Society record my participation as a Worldcon speaker and moderator. All that and more (every time I made the Dean's List in college or high school made it into a newspaper) can be sourced. And I don't qualify for a Wikipedia article either -- all of that, barring substantive coverage, is just as unmemorable as Some Dude whose sole claim to fame is that he pitched a couple unnoticed innings for the Monumentals in 1884. Ravenswing 01:58, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Not to mention even the sourced info likely wouldn't be DUE. Anyone can prosify some bare stats or cobble together a biography from mundane local newspaper coverage and obits; doesn't mean it's encyclopedic or adherent to NPOV. That's how we get articles with four paragraphs on someone's state HS records and college acceptance hype, two paragraphs on their college career, and a couple sentences on their subsequent office job, but nothing demonstrating they received more than fleeting regional attention for low-level achievements. College and especially high school stats really shouldn't be in any articles unless they've been discussed years later in places outside their home region; certainly they shouldn't be sourced only to databases or local newspapers where every match/result is reported. And yet these seem to be the go-to data for fluffing up bios of contemporary athletes with no actual claim to notability. JoelleJay (talk) 21:12, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- It isn't though, at least not one that passes Wikipedia policy. I mean, I can write a well-written article about myself, at least grammatically correct, and complete, and narratively compelling. However, it isn't verifiable to independent, reliable sources. That's the point, if you obey the core principles of Wikipedia you can't create a reasonable stand-alone without enough verifiable information to add to the article. To wit " All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy, citing reliable, authoritative sources," That's all the GNG says: without the sources, don't create the article. --Jayron32 17:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Its possible to write a decent article on someone who's not a GNG pass. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- There's a good reason for this. The GNG is about assuring that it's possible to write a decent encyclopedia article about the subject. That's all. We shouldn't be creating new articles about topics which have no hope of ever being a reasonable encyclopedia article. WP:GNG just says "don't write an article unless you are sure the source material exists upon which to base such an article". We went astray of that when we tried to create reasons to bypass the GNG and give people license to start creating articles that have no chance of being anything.--Jayron32 13:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- @UtherSRG HennSw123 (talk) 11:04, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
AfD backlog
Can we please get more eyes on the sportspeople AfDs? There are discussions from mid-February yet to be closed. JoelleJay (talk) 18:06, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
More input is welcome at this AfD. JoelleJay (talk) 15:23, 16 March 2023 (UTC)
Formula One
Much like WWE, Formula One is staged. Should we keep Formula One drivers as requiring to meet NSPORTS? Ricciardo Best (talk) 08:39, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- I see that the NSPORT says that "Any athletic entertainment event at which the results are at least partially predetermined or scripted is not covered by this page." However you'll need to provide evidence that Formula 1 is "staged" (ie partially predetermined or scripted). Looks to me that the idea that's its staged might be a WP:Fringe theory. Nigej (talk) 09:20, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Googling on this topic, there are some people who think so, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of actual evidence. The basis for the belief seems to be the rules regarding the cars from what I can tell. 331dot (talk) 09:28, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- It's clearly "staged" in the sense that the rules are designed to lead to more exciting racing, but that's true of all motor sports and, indeed, pretty much all sports. However that's different to the situation where results are "partially predetermined or scripted" which in pretty much all sports is 100% against the rules. Nigej (talk) 09:44, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- Googling on this topic, there are some people who think so, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of actual evidence. The basis for the belief seems to be the rules regarding the cars from what I can tell. 331dot (talk) 09:28, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Ricciardo Best All Formula One drivers must pass WP:GNG. All that NSPORTS does is stating that that the drivers are likely to have the significant coverage to pass GNG, it does not make them automatically notable. When taken to AfD, their articles should be deleted if no significant coverage can be found. And despite some fringe conspiracy theories, there is no evidence that Formula One is staged. Alvaldi (talk) 11:49, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
- +1 on the fringe theory bit. That's a serious allegation, Ricciardo Best, you'd need some fairly overwhelming evidence to get any traction for it here, and the discussion would be considerably more trouble than it appears to be worth. The sentence Nigej quotes was intended to scupper the pro wrestling crowd (although I give a nod to Dwayne Johnson's line of "Pro wrestling is scripted. It's not fake."), and equating WWE and TNA to Formula One would not go over well with the motorsports lot. Ravenswing 15:57, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
Using source from a league as a secondary source
Should a source from a league that has a direct interest in promoting teams and players within its ranks be allowed to be used as an independent secondary source that goes towards WP:GNG for a player in that league? Asking for a friend. Alvaldi (talk) 09:19, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd generally be wary. If something was that notable, I'd think another source of significant coverage should exist for GNG purposes. Perhaps a specific example can be justifiable on a per case basis.—Bagumba (talk) 09:30, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- I originally assumed the question was about a league writing about another league, but seeing Ravenswing comment below, perhaps it was about a league writing about its own players? —Bagumba (talk) 12:10, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm inquiring about leagues writing about its own players and how other editors view those sources in terms of going towards WP:GNG. Alvaldi (talk) 12:24, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Not independent as GNG requires then. —Bagumba (talk) 14:41, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm inquiring about leagues writing about its own players and how other editors view those sources in terms of going towards WP:GNG. Alvaldi (talk) 12:24, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- I originally assumed the question was about a league writing about another league, but seeing Ravenswing comment below, perhaps it was about a league writing about its own players? —Bagumba (talk) 12:10, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Under certain circumstances, a source from a league can be used to verify facts in the article of a player in that league. I wouldn't blink, for instance, at nhl.com being cited as to Patrice Bergeron being awarded the Selke Trophy last year, that after all being an award the league itself gives out.
Under no circumstances whatsoever, however, would a league site count as a secondary source to support the notability of one of its players; that's a classic example of a primary source. Ravenswing 12:01, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Materials written by a league about one of its own players may or may not be WP:PRIMARY ("original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved") but the more general reason why they don't count toward GNG is that they are not WP:INDEPENDENT. Cbl62 (talk) 13:35, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- In my opinion non-independent sites can often be used as sufficient references for facts, but should not count towards GNG as they are not WP:INDEPENDENT. Rikster2 (talk) 14:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
- Of course governing sports orgs are not independent of their players. And yet currently we have several long-term editors who repeatedly post links to them as evidence of GNG across dozens of AfDs, and other editors who endorse them, and unless someone comes along and actually notes that those sources are not independent there's nothing the closer can do because the AfD looks like this:
- Editor 1: Keep meets GNG with [long list of shit sources].
- E2-4: Keep meets GNG per E1.
- Actually even if someone does point out that a source is decidedly not independent/secondary/SIGCOV/RS, if enough people at an AfD just ignore this fact the source will magically become acceptable (e.g. this AfD where a profile of a student in a student newspaper was argued to be independent SIGCOV, and so the subject met GNG with that source plus brief press releases from the school/sports orgs and her team's roster blurb. And I think all of us here remember the vehement insistence that a quote-heavy press release on facebook announcing the winner of an anonymous Twitter/Google Docs poll by a fan club was both independent SIGCOV and evidence of an ANYBIO pass). This is what happens when the most active editors participating in athlete AfDs right now openly reject the NSPORTS2022 consensus and !vote in line with deprecated sport-specific guidelines, just switching from "Keep meets [SSG]" to "Keep meets GNG". Enough discussions are falling through the cracks where such sources are supported/go unnoticed that a local consensus develops and suddenly NOTNEWS/SUSTAINED are voided and routine transactional announcements and glowing 8-sentence profiles in hyper-local small-town newspapers are considered unequivocal SIGCOV in SIRS. JoelleJay (talk) 19:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
I agree that a league or even an organization which governs a league is not going to be an independent source with respect to any of that league's players, as the governing organization benefits from promoting the athletes who participate in its competitions regardless of whether it actually pays their salaries. However, when it comes to coverage of a former player (example), it is true that the organization governing the competition the former player once played in is not independent? Would CONMEBOL have a vested interest in promoting Taverna because he once played in competitions in which it had oversight role? Jogurney (talk) 14:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- I think that such sources are reliable for the purposes of adding information to articles, but insufficiently independent for establishing notability per WP:GNG. Third-party sources should be used. --Jayron32 14:23, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
Badminton update
Can someone please update the badminton guidelines? The BWF Grand Prix Gold and Grand Prix have been replaced by the BWF World Tour. Also is Super 100 medalists considered notable? Timothytyy (talk) 10:03, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Timothytyy Updating the badminton guidelines requires a consensus. A Super 100 medalists is likely to be considered notable if the individual has significant coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Same goes for BWF World Tour medalists. Alvaldi (talk) 10:26, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Proposal for revising NBAD
Proposal
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- Remove criterion 1 Medalist at the highest international teams or singles/doubles championships of a country (e.g., Canadian Open, German Open, Slovak International). It is meaningless as the notable tournaments are the World Tour events, not the Continental Circuit events (especially Future Series). For example the Indonesia Masters Super 100 does not fit this criterion but the Slovak International does (I believe this tournament's winners cannot be considered as notable).
- Update criterion 2 to the current BWF World Tour.
- I am seeking for clarification on what "countries that regularly send athletes to the Olympics" actually include; the current wordings are too vague.
- Support 1: I'm not seeing any data that indicates that these medalists are likely to have the WP:SIGCOV to pass WP:GNG. Oppose 2: At least until there is any research done that shows that medalists from the BWF World Tour generally have the WP:SIGCOV to pass WP:GNG. The BWF World Tour started in 2018, so sources for these medalists should not be hard to find if they are notable. Comment 3: This should really be removed as it is rather ambiguous. Alvaldi (talk) 11:19, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
- This should be posted at relevant discussion board so that it attracts the members associated and not deriving conclusions from editors with negligible amount of edits in the concerned sport. zoglophie 06:16, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but then again this isn't exactly rocket science. As is stated in WP:NSPORT, all athletes must pass WP:GNG. If editors are not able to prove that the vast majority of athletes in a proposed criteria pass GNG, then that criteria should be rejected. Likewise, current criteria that has no evidence backing it up should really be removed. Alvaldi (talk) 08:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Zoglophie Do you mean posting it at the talk page of WikiProject Badminton? Timothytyy (talk) 11:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- I meant to say that. It would provide better insights about which tournament needs to be kept for clearing WP:NBAD threshold.
- I would also like to remind that 3 points of WP:NBAD were reinstated an year ago as it solely stand upon performance based criterias which was ok with the editors. There is nothing "private" about it as we know that Wikipedia is not censored. zoglophie 18:08, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
- Ahem. I've no objection to notifying any relevant project of the discussion taking place here, but ANY notability criterion needs to be broadly comprehensible to ANY editor, and Wikipedia doesn't work on the "self-proclaimed elite" theory. Not only do you not get to restrict discussions on notability guidelines to the "right" lot, but it is not permitted for individual WikiProjects to have private consensuses that override broad notability guidelines; this is where the decision needs to happen. My own take on the question would be to strike NBAD altogether, and stand and fall on the GNG. Ravenswing 16:02, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
ĐĐ=== Proposal for removing NBAD criteria 1 and 3 === I am proposing to remove criteria 1 and 3 as I see more agreements (from Alvaldi and Ravenswing). Please indicate your preference below. Timothytyy (talk) 11:41, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Partial support Timothytyy Remove criteria one in entirety, but amendment in criteria number two should include Super 100 tournament as well. It (no. 2) should be reframed as Medalist at tournaments of the BWF World Tour and Super 100 level. I am also in favour of removing criteria number 3, because most likely the international coverage for some player winning a particular national championship would be weak anyway. The second aspect of third point which emphasises that regularly send athletes to the Olympics is rather insignificant as participation in Olympics is no longer a suitable criteria for keeping an article in whole of the WP:NSPORT. zoglophie 11:04, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support: It should all stand and fall on the GNG. Simpler, cleaner, more accurate. Ravenswing 11:43, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support: As I noted above, I'm seeing not seeing any data that indicates that those who pass this criteria are likely to have the WP:SIGCOV to pass WP:GNG so both should be removed in my opinion. Alvaldi (talk) 13:39, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support per Ravenswing. Cbl62 (talk) 13:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- @Alvaldi, Ravenswing, and Cbl62: Question. Are there any sports that showed GNG test data for inclusion? BeanieFan11 (talk) 13:57, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- No doubt, but I'm on record as advocating the complete elimination of all NSPORTS criteria, and relying on the GNG for notability purposes. We should just put an end to the blatant subjectivity of the handful of editors responsible for creating these criteria (myself included), as well as these endless arguments. Ravenswing 14:28, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd also support demolishing NSPORT - it seems worthless at this point. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:35, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- I still think NSPORT can provide useful guidance and be helpful in AfD discussions. It was a little disheartening that the thoroughly-vetted, 100% GNG-predictive basketball proposal was not passed last year, but I remain hopeful that as the dust settles further, there may still be room to add a tight, well-vetted version of NGRIDIRON. Cbl62 (talk) 16:39, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- For example, Beanie, NCOLLATH remains helpful in convincing open-minded AfD participants that truly top level college athletes (e.g, first-team All-Americans) and modern-era Division I head football coaches should be given some degree of protection. Cbl62 (talk) 16:44, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- I see your point. Its just that it seems to only provide now guidance for minor sports (except for collath, few others) and meeting it doesn't really seem to have a ton of effect - most discussions I've seen involve people arguing it must be shown to meet GNG now because "accomplishments mean nothing." (even if its for an old and foreign topic and we've got offline sources that we know cover them, but don't have access to) FWIW, I don't really have much hope for a new NGRIDION considering that the basketball criteria with 100% notability demonstrated was rejected; I'm sure if we looked hard enough we could probably find a player with a decent amount of experience who could be argued as non-notable, especially considering that many people around here have rather extreme views on notability (for example, just the other day I saw a discussion between a group of users on whether to propose banning "local" coverage for notability on sportspeople). (also, considering this, I'd like to know your opinion on what you think would be a valid NGRIDION) BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:02, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Do you really think so? I'm more inclined to JoelleJay's opinion below: that NSPORTS provides very little "useful" guidance at AfD these days, which is dominated by preconceptions and shibboleths. An athlete (or other athletics-based subject) that cannot be demonstrated to meet the GNG is not notable enough to warrant an article, full stop. The time and bytes that get swallowed up in these endless debates, going back decades now, could be much better spent on article creation and improvement. Ravenswing 17:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- In my opinion NSPORT should just contextualize NOT/GNG/NPOV/OR for sports coverage and describe what type of coverage does not count towards GNG. Editors who are not familiar with sports publishing and/or our P&Gs regularly mistake some types of coverage for SIGCOV. For example in some sports it is customary for newspapers to publish detailed recaps of all matches: it is thus helpful for NSPORT to explain how to identify such sources and how ROUTINE, NOTNEWS, SUSTAINED, and PRIMARY apply to notability of the match itself and to the teams and people involved. Determining independence is another big issue for new editors, so NSPORT could remind them that coverage from a subject's club/school/league/governing sports org/event organizer/award body is not independent; that press releases are never GNG even when they're reprinted in SIRS; that material quoting or otherwise relaying what a subject said/experienced/believed does not count when evaluating the significance of coverage; etc. Our existing restrictions on databases already help cut down on editors using them for notability at AfD and AfC -- if we didn't have that explicitly stated in the guideline there would be a lot more confusion and arguing (although the wording could still be improved, I guess). It would also be useful to frame the minor, non-noteworthy coverage expected of athletes in terms of DUE/PROPORTION and NOT to discourage mentioning every high school or college event result even if each item is verifiable. JoelleJay (talk) 20:07, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. For instance, I could make a pretty strong case for notability of a local sports star. She's received solid coverage in the regional daily paper, in-depth coverage in multiple county daily papers, heavy coverage in the hometown weekly, and occasional coverage in the Boston Globe. Athletes with weaker coverage have survived AfD in the past. (Heck, there's many an Olympic medalist with significantly less coverage.)
And as it happens, Madi Liimatainen is a 10th grader, the starting pitcher for her small town high school softball team (much of the coverage has to do with that her team is something of a dynasty, with many state championships). No one in their right mind would suggest she was notable enough for a Wikipedia article, but too many of the rules by which we govern such things are tacit. Ravenswing 07:02, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Exactly, and I think if editors can make overtures to "common sense" to defend inclusion of someone with marginal coverage just because they feel other qualities make the subject more deserving of an article (e.g. winning some tournament, playing in some league), then that type of reasoning should also factor into determining coverage thresholds for exclusion. So if editors can agree that a tenth grader of Madi's skill level doesn't warrant an article despite the depth and range of her coverage, then that same depth and range shouldn't be sufficient for any athlete in that time period and area. The invocation of "routine" by NOTNEWS already suggests we should evaluate how mundane or predictable certain genres of news are, so it's not like this would be brand new policy. JoelleJay (talk) 16:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Also, this is like the perfect example of how lower notability standards increase SYSTEMICBIAS. How many 15-year-olds in rural parts of developing countries receive even local coverage for any reason, let alone for their softball prowess? How many of those communities had a newspaper breathlessly documenting every 2-month coaching stint in the 1910s? For every modern footballer in a tiny island nation getting an article through one local reporter's flowery praise, how many dozens more western male athletes would qualify every year going back to the 19th century through the same means? JoelleJay (talk) 16:33, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Madi is a red herring. She and other < 18 athletes are why we have WP:YOUNGATH. Very few < 18 athletes (urban or rural) qualify under this heightened standard. Cbl62 (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- But why do we have YOUNGATH in the first place, if not to say "youth achievements aren't noteworthy enough for an article even if they receive the same amount of coverage acceptable for a senior athlete"? And apparently per "GNG or SNG" we can totally ignore any "heightened standards" from YOUNGATH (or SPORTBASIC), so what purpose does it serve other than as a reminder that these P&Gs exist and editors should be especially mindful of them when dealing with minors (which doesn't prescribe anything new). If it's supposed to be a prescription of what SIGCOV is (or rather isn't) in the context of young athletes (which would necessarily define their ability to meet GNG itself), what limitations does it actually add? Because
substantial and prolonged coverage
is already necessary for all subjects per SUSTAINED and N;independent of the subject
is already required per GNG and OR; andclearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage
is already required by NOTNEWS. And it's not like YOUNGATH is then redefining what "independent" is for minor subjects, either:The first clause excludes all school papers and school websites that cover their sports teams and other teams they compete against
doesn't introduce any new definition of "independent", and the examples it uses are also obviously not independent sources for any other subject. - So if the first clause is simply restating existing policy and contextualizing it with sourcing examples that would commonly be encountered with HS athletes, then why would the second clause be interpreted as a novel restriction?
The second clause excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications
is stating that the type of coverage considered "routine" and thus ineligible for granting notability to events is also not permitted for young athletes, and that given the definition of ROUTINE it follows that local coverage is mostly excluded. But the very first sentence of ROUTINE isPer Wikipedia policy, routine news coverage of such things as announcements are not sufficient basis for an article
, which restates our policy for all articles, not just events; and there is no substantive treatment of locality of coverage provided by ROUTINE but not NOTNEWS that would suggest YOUNGATH's invocation of "local" is derived from guidelines that do not apply to biographies outside its scope. - Anyway, wikilawyering aside, even if YOUNGATH does contain additional hurdles, we still have the question of why voluminous local coverage of sporting activity spanning a short period of time is acceptable for a college student or pro but not a child, considering achievement-based notability presumptions have been deprecated. JoelleJay (talk) 18:57, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- (nods to JoelleJay) Because on the face of it, why is it that athletes under a certain age need to pass a higher bar than grownups, and how does that square with WP:V and WP:N? And if the answer is "well, they get so much routine coverage from small town papers," then the problem isn't in high school athletics. The problem is in routine local-only coverage in local papers.
And that opens up a far larger can of worms. Why is -- for instance -- routine local coverage of high school athletes not indicative of notability, but routine local coverage of high schools is? Ravenswing 19:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
why is it that athletes under a certain age need to pass a higher bar than grownups
I believe there are two principal reasons: (i) privacy issues relating to the creation of articles about minors, and (ii) a prudent and conscious editorial decision that we do not want Wikipedia to be overrun with articles about high-school athletes based on routine local coverage. From my perspective, it's also helpful in keeping the lid on the "can of worms" that would erupt if we let high-school editors cobble together biographies on their "buddy on the high-school track or football team" based on a write-up in the local paper. Cbl62 (talk) 20:06, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- But why do we have YOUNGATH in the first place, if not to say "youth achievements aren't noteworthy enough for an article even if they receive the same amount of coverage acceptable for a senior athlete"? And apparently per "GNG or SNG" we can totally ignore any "heightened standards" from YOUNGATH (or SPORTBASIC), so what purpose does it serve other than as a reminder that these P&Gs exist and editors should be especially mindful of them when dealing with minors (which doesn't prescribe anything new). If it's supposed to be a prescription of what SIGCOV is (or rather isn't) in the context of young athletes (which would necessarily define their ability to meet GNG itself), what limitations does it actually add? Because
- Madi is a red herring. She and other < 18 athletes are why we have WP:YOUNGATH. Very few < 18 athletes (urban or rural) qualify under this heightened standard. Cbl62 (talk) 16:59, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. For instance, I could make a pretty strong case for notability of a local sports star. She's received solid coverage in the regional daily paper, in-depth coverage in multiple county daily papers, heavy coverage in the hometown weekly, and occasional coverage in the Boston Globe. Athletes with weaker coverage have survived AfD in the past. (Heck, there's many an Olympic medalist with significantly less coverage.)
- In my opinion NSPORT should just contextualize NOT/GNG/NPOV/OR for sports coverage and describe what type of coverage does not count towards GNG. Editors who are not familiar with sports publishing and/or our P&Gs regularly mistake some types of coverage for SIGCOV. For example in some sports it is customary for newspapers to publish detailed recaps of all matches: it is thus helpful for NSPORT to explain how to identify such sources and how ROUTINE, NOTNEWS, SUSTAINED, and PRIMARY apply to notability of the match itself and to the teams and people involved. Determining independence is another big issue for new editors, so NSPORT could remind them that coverage from a subject's club/school/league/governing sports org/event organizer/award body is not independent; that press releases are never GNG even when they're reprinted in SIRS; that material quoting or otherwise relaying what a subject said/experienced/believed does not count when evaluating the significance of coverage; etc. Our existing restrictions on databases already help cut down on editors using them for notability at AfD and AfC -- if we didn't have that explicitly stated in the guideline there would be a lot more confusion and arguing (although the wording could still be improved, I guess). It would also be useful to frame the minor, non-noteworthy coverage expected of athletes in terms of DUE/PROPORTION and NOT to discourage mentioning every high school or college event result even if each item is verifiable. JoelleJay (talk) 20:07, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- For example, Beanie, NCOLLATH remains helpful in convincing open-minded AfD participants that truly top level college athletes (e.g, first-team All-Americans) and modern-era Division I head football coaches should be given some degree of protection. Cbl62 (talk) 16:44, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- I still think NSPORT can provide useful guidance and be helpful in AfD discussions. It was a little disheartening that the thoroughly-vetted, 100% GNG-predictive basketball proposal was not passed last year, but I remain hopeful that as the dust settles further, there may still be room to add a tight, well-vetted version of NGRIDIRON. Cbl62 (talk) 16:39, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'm also in favour of getting rid of NSPORT. Worse than useless, since unknowing editors still come here trying to make changes to it, without realising that it's dead in the water. Realistically it can only come back in a completely different form. Nigej (talk) 16:47, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- I'd also support demolishing NSPORT - it seems worthless at this point. BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:35, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- No doubt, but I'm on record as advocating the complete elimination of all NSPORTS criteria, and relying on the GNG for notability purposes. We should just put an end to the blatant subjectivity of the handful of editors responsible for creating these criteria (myself included), as well as these endless arguments. Ravenswing 14:28, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support; as above. wjematherplease leave a message... 14:01, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support: nothing to add to Ravenswing and JoelleJay comments. Bio related notabilty guidelines need to be more straightforward and uniform, not the Byzantine system we have now which has very uneven requirements and standards. // Timothy :: talk 22:00, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Comment If NBAD removes Continental Circuit events (BWF International Challenge, International Series, and Future Series), there will be many Wikipedia articles related to badminton that need to be deleted. So, i propose to add NBAD Medalist in three or more Continental Circuit events (BWF International Challenge, International Series, and Future Series). Ex: Katharina Fink, she did not pass BWF World Tour criteria, but she will pass Continental Circuit criteria. Stvbastian (talk) 23:43, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- If the subjects of those articles meet the GNG, they will of course not need to be deleted. If they can't meet the GNG, then they deserve to be deleted. I am militantly opposed to creating more criteria founded in airy speculation just to keep bios of NN athletes around. Ravenswing 07:06, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- @Stvbastian I don't agree on adding "Medalist in three or more Continental Circuit events (BWF International Challenge, International Series, and Future Series)" as they generally don't have significant coverage. However, I agree that the example you gave passes GNG and therefore warrants an article. Timothytyy (talk) 06:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Removing criteria 1 and 3 per consensus. Shall there be any objections, please state your stance here. Otherwise this will be closed in a few days. Timothytyy (talk) 06:08, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Discussion on NBAD criterion 2
I see different opinions on the fate of criterion 2. Some suggest changing it to "Medalist at tournaments of the BWF World Tour and Super 100 level", while some suggest deletion.
My stance: I personally agree with Zoglophie to update the criteria to all World Tour and Super 100 tournaments, as they generally have significant coverage. My research: Firstly, all tournament results can be found in bwf tournament software, so they are all verifiable. Secondly, all World Tour events have significant coverage (let alone the finals) at reliable sources, e.g. BWF news and Olympic news.
I agree with Ravenswing that NBAD is becoming less and less useful in AFD debates; however, it provides a basic idea about which kind of badminton biographies are notable. Therefore, I oppose deletion of criteria 2 (which means the deletion of NBAD). NBAD already states that it is only likely to have significant coverage if the player meets NBAD, which means that badminton biographies meeting NBAD but failing GNG can be deleted, and similarly, badminton biographies failing NBAD but passing GNG can be kept (e.g. Stvbastian's example).
My suggestion is to keep and modify criterion 2 to make it more referable for editors to identify notability of badminton players. Lack of actual performance requirements may lead to a large number of creations of articles of unknown players using local sources. Similar to other NSPORT guidelines (e.g. NTENNIS), NBAD is still used in AFD debates. NBAD help editors differentiate between lack of sources or lack of notability: It is useful for reviewers to determine whether the articles lack sources which can be easily found (all subjects that passes NBAD have significant coverage according to my research), or if the subject is simply not notable. I don't agree that it is dead in the water just because it looks like no one is using them. Research has been done on creating these criteria and I strongly disagree on removing the result of thorough discussion in the past and forgetting the original purpose of SNG. The main guidelines have not been changed; the usefulness of NBAD has not changed; it's just that some editors changed their preference on GNG or SNG, start to forget how SNG works, or just don't realize how useful these SNG guidelines (specifically NSPORT and even specifically NBAD) are.
Anyway, these are my opinions only. Please indicate your preferences below.
- Comment Timothytyy while the criteria including challenger events are removed now, I see tennis notability guidelines still using it. Can we think about the amendment Stvbastian wants to include? zoglophie 04:23, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry, but neither the significance nor significant coverage is enough for the continental circuit, unless someone can find a reliable source providing constant coverage on these events. Tennis tournaments have much more coverage (in my opinion). Also if those subjects have signifcant coverage, they pass GNG, i.e. warrants its own article. Timothytyy (talk) 05:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse the current version as modified by the proposer. zoglophie 06:00, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Proposal to modify NBOXING
Strike Prong 1
Prong 1 of WP:NBOXING applies to boxers who "have won a regular/full (non-interim) non-world title listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Boxing/Title Assessment. The referenced list is in project space and thus remains subject to change by a local consensus. As it is, the list already includes 25 different regional/national sanctioning bodies from Australia, Great Britain, Ireland, Central America, Africa, Oceania, "Inter-Continental", and more -- and includes regional/national champions dating back in some cases to the 19th century. I am not aware of any evidence showing that 95% of these regional champions (in all time periods and all weight classes) have the SIGCOV needed. Prong 2 of NBOXING ("world top ten of any weight class by the IBF, WBA, WBC, WBO, or The Ring magazine") makes more sense. Unless good evidence has been presented previously (or can be presented now), I propose striking Prong 1. Cbl62 (talk) 17:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Cbl62 (talk) 17:17, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Even more than most sports, boxing's been a ratfuck for decades. I would really strongly advocate the elimination of NBOXING altogether, rely on the GNG for the notability of boxers, and just not try to parcel out which among the blizzard of oft-competing sanctioning bodies produce notable boxers (or not) and during what time periods. Ravenswing 17:46, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Prongs 1 and 3 struck me as the most problematic. Feel free to add a proposal regarding Prong 2, but it seems reasonable to me -- it's limited to the boxers rated among the top 10 in the world in each weight class, as picked by one of the five top authorities. Cbl62 (talk) 21:03, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Alvaldi (talk) 21:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support Though I was a bit of a boxing fan as a youth, it is no longer a legitimate sport with established governance, and is now inherently abusive at its core. Like Ravenswing, I support the elimination of NBOXING, and instead, an ironclad requirement that all boxer biographies comply with the GNG, strictly interpreted. Cullen328 (talk) 06:19, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
Strike Prong 3
Prong 3 applies to amateur boxers (both male and female) who have (a) fought in the final of a national amateur championship or (b) represented their AIBA affiliated country in a continental (or higher) tournament. This seems even worse than prong 1 in that it applies to amateur national champions (not even regional) and the last bit covers mere participation in a continental tournament without regard to where they finished. Again, there appears to be no evidence that these are good predictors of SIGCOV. Cbl62 (talk) 17:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support. Cbl62 (talk) 17:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support: Per myself, above. Ravenswing 17:47, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support per nom. Alvaldi (talk) 21:21, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
- Support SNG language is useful only when it accurately predicts that the topic would meet the GNG with a reasonable effort to find reliable, independent sources devoting significant coverage to the topic. I see no evidence of that in this case. Cullen328 (talk) 06:24, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
- Support - quite clearly not a reliable predictor of GNG Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 10:09, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- Support - Away with the mere "participation" criteria, there is no evidence this is a good predictor of solid coverage. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:22, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- Comment - @Cbl62: given the unanimous support for removal, can we boldly remove these from WP:NBOX? Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 21:09, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Seems reasonable to me. Cbl62 (talk) 21:12, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, I've done so. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 21:26, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
Follow-up on Sports Organization sources and WP:NSPORTS
About a month ago, we had a discussion about whether articles published by clubs, leagues, and organizations that organize sports competitions can count towards notability for sportspersons (e.g., an article on mlssoccer.com about someone who plays for the Chicago Fire). The answer was a clear no, but I'm having other editors argue that while these sources are not necessarily independent of the subject, they are strong evidence that the sportsperson is notable because why else would the league or club make the effort to chronicle their career, etc.? The specific example is a footballer who played in the Süper Lig and was the subject of an interview published by the Turkish Football Federation (the organization which oversees the competition). The suggestion is that the Federation would only bother to interview this footballer if he was an important figure. I did a Google search ([site:tff.org Röportaj: Mazlum Uluç]) of the Federation's website looking for interviews done by the same person and got 534 hits. Some of the interviews are with important figures in Turkish football, but there are also interviews with minor figures (e.g., an assistant referee) so I'm dubious of the claim that the Federation wouldn't waste its time interviewing a non-notable sportsperson. Has this been addressed before? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Jogurney (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
they are strong evidence that the sportsperson is notable because why else would the league or club make the effort to chronicle their career, etc.?
The league has an incentive to "promote" its teams and its athletes. That's why. If the athlete is truly notable, there will be coverage in independent sources. Cbl62 (talk) 15:17, 20 April 2023 (UTC)- Official websites have promotional objectives that affect their coverage. Taking an example I'm more familiar with, there has been some discussion of mlb.com at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 44 § MLB.com as reliable source. It's considered reliable for purely factual information, but its promotional aspects means its editorial choices don't necessarily align with Wikipedia's standards for having an article. isaacl (talk) 15:23, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Per Isaacl, the secondary coverage in his TFF interview is clearly factual. Also, sure, the Turkish Football Federation interviewed an assistant referee (probably for variety), but I would be very surprised if most of the players they interviewed are not notable to some extent. Looking at a page of player interviews, I found essentially all of the interviews were with significant players who made over 100+ games in Süper Lig (and the one that didn't made 50+ appearances). Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 15:47, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not familiar with that website, so I don't have a view on what it does. In general, though, sports organizations will choose to promote athletes for various reasons. It could interview a hometown player, a promising rookie who hasn't yet established themselves, someone with a good sentimental story, or anything else that it thinks will resonate with its audience. isaacl (talk) 16:37, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I've got a question: If a player is chronicled by a league website or team website but has not been on that team/in that league, or the article was published before they were (for example, a college football player being written about in an article by the NFL or an NFL team), could that count towards notability? BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:53, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I would say no: it is still being written to promote the sport as a whole (in the same vein as issacl's mention of mlb.com above) Spike 'em (talk) 15:59, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I would say it depends. If the player has been drafted or signed by a team in the league, then the same promotional concerns apply. If the player is being discussed in the context of his potential in the NFL draft, I still think the promotional concerns apply. If there's no such connection, I don't see the WP:INDY issue. Cbl62 (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- I'm more with Cbl62; obviously someone who's been drafted/signed to an organization renders its sources non-independent. But at the same time, eeesh, many works serve to promote their overall subjects. We don't impeach The Hockey News as a reliable source, for instance, but it plainly promotes the sport of ice hockey generally and the North American professional hockey leagues in specific. If we find (say) that NFL.com has an acceptable standard of accuracy and fact checking, I'd figure that an article of the length and focus we'd otherwise pass were it written by a major newspaper following BeanieFan's scenario would pass notability muster. Ravenswing 02:30, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- League or team websites are never independent of their players or coaches. Its fine to use them for factual sourcing but not for establishing notability. Alvaldi (talk) 16:43, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed with others that such sites are obviously not independent. I removed the "generally" from "generally not regarded as independent" in our guideline since it implies there are circumstances in which an employer's website is independent. JoelleJay (talk) 00:26, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Disagree with the change. Such a source may be independent if the content does not relate to its own teams or players. Cbl62 (talk) 00:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- How does that guidance make any sense if "team website" doesn't refer to the subject's team? JoelleJay (talk) 01:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Team (and league) web sites generally include content relating to players on their own teams. In such cases, the content is promoting the team/league's own product and is therefore not independent. However, if such sites publish SIGCOV on players who are wholly independent of the team/league at issue, the "independence" issue would not be triggered. (As an example, if nba.com published an in-depth biographical piece about a notable basketball player from the 1920s, i.e., decades prior to the 1946 formation of the NBA, such an article would not necessarily lack independence.) Such content is unlikely to be common, but nevertheless such potentiality is why the longstanding "generally" language is both accurate and appropriate. Cbl62 (talk) 01:55, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- How does that guidance make any sense if "team website" doesn't refer to the subject's team? JoelleJay (talk) 01:38, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- Disagree with the change. Such a source may be independent if the content does not relate to its own teams or players. Cbl62 (talk) 00:56, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
- And my answer would be: tough. Editors that ignorant of the distinctions between primary, secondary and independent sources are in strong need of better education in relevant policies and guidelines, and ought not be trying to pull fast ones in deletion discussions. Whether someone is an "important figure" in a sport is a highly subjective thing that is not our decision to make ... quite aside from the obvious fact that the reason a site interviews anyone is because there are column inches to fill. Ravenswing 02:23, 21 April 2023 (UTC)
Interplay of NSPORTS and SPORTCRIT
Another editor has raised what I assume is a good faith argument at a current sports biography AfD that if SPORTCRIT is met, then there is no need to meet the GNG (which is the normal requirement under NSPORTS). In this instance, the biography has one source which multiple editors believe is sufficient to meet SPORTCRIT, but they concede there are no other sources such that the GNG could be met (as it requires multiple SIRS). It was always my understanding that the GNG needed to be met, and any presumption of notability from NSPORTS was just that - a presumption. Have I misunderstood this for the past 10 years? Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 13:48, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- If anyone ever claims "there is no need to meet the GNG" they are wrong, full stop. GNG is the requirement that there be enough reliable source text for writing an article. No guideline should be read to mean "It's okay to create an article for something where there isn't enough reliable source text". --Jayron32 14:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- That sounds distinctly like WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES. SPORTCRIT states
Meeting this requirement alone does not indicate notability, but it does indicate that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article
, so once a single source has been queried then it's time to find some more. Spike 'em (talk) 14:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC)- Though wasn't this criteria added as part of the NSPORTS2022 discussion, rather than 10 years ago? It is clear from that discussion that this was to be added as a step towards showing GNG compliance, not to replace it. Spike 'em (talk) 14:45, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I probably should have stated that the editor in the AfD is saying there is NORUSH and we should keep the biography because SPORTCRIT is met, and the GNG can be met when someone has time to check 15-year-old French-language media archives. The article has been in existence for over 13 years, so I don't see why we would keep it in the mainspace if it cannot meet GNG based on the available sources; as opposed to theoretical sources that may exist in archives none of us can access now. Jogurney (talk) 15:05, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- The "Basic criteria" section has been present since the page received consensus support as a guideline. It provides additional context for interpreting the general notability guideline in the context of sports, particularly for those without a corresponding subsection in the sports-specific notability guideline. isaacl (talk) 15:55, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- No, the individual bullet points in SPORTCRIT are in addition to, not instead of, the multiple source requirement in the first sentence. Only one source is required to be included in the article, but the standard requirement that multiple sources are proven to exist still stands. –dlthewave ☎ 15:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Though wasn't this criteria added as part of the NSPORTS2022 discussion, rather than 10 years ago? It is clear from that discussion that this was to be added as a step towards showing GNG compliance, not to replace it. Spike 'em (talk) 14:45, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Although I know of one editor who believes that Wikipedia:Notability (sports) § Basic criteria is a replacement for the general notability guideline, others and I think that it provides additional context for interpreting the general notability guideline without supplanting it. The section refers to Wikipedia:Notability as the main page, and its points all parallel the items listed in Wikipedia:Notability § General notability guideline. I feel referring to the "general notability guideline" is a shorthand for referring to the corresponding section on the notability page and other related guidance that puts it into context. isaacl (talk) 15:50, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- This though raises the question of what to do with articles that do have one GNG source, but are for non-current players in foreign countries where we don't have access to contemporary media. Isn't that when SPORTCRIT comes into play, where we know the information about the sportsperson is reliable, and SPORTCRIT tells us that "does indicate that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article". Once reliable media is accessible, we still have the option of improving or removing the article. Nfitz (talk) 21:46, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Well, in that scenario the article would either be deleted or draftified until someone actually finds and presents the additional sources. –dlthewave ☎ 21:54, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- You keep missing out the start that states
Meeting this requirement alone does not indicate notability
Spike 'em (talk) 22:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)- If not in this case, can you give examples when SPORTCRIT is applied? I'd think that's when it would come into play, as there's no rush or rule to delete such articles. Nfitz (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- The requirement to include a reference to a source in a sports biography is not actually a criterion for presuming that a subject meets Wikipedia's standards for having an article. Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability § Subproposal 5 simply proposed adding a requirement to have a reference to a source to this guideline. It didn't propose a specific section to be modified, nor did it define the change as a criterion. As I discussed earlier, editors have used the "Basic criteria" section to provide additional guidance on how to apply the general notability guideline for sports-related topics. isaacl (talk) 00:46, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone is saying that an article should exist in perpetuity with only one a single GNG source. Just that we have all the time in the world, and in cases where we can't even access appropriate archives that would provide definitive proof one way or another, that we can be pragmatic under the SPORTCRIT. Again I ask, when would we apply this section? Perhaps if that was made clear, it would be clearer on when not to apply it. Nfitz (talk) 04:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- As I said in the AfD,
There are no circumstances where it should be applied to keep an article that fails GNG. I was the editor who added that line, and I can definitively tell you that the intent was only to provide general guidance, to encourage editors seeking to keep or create an article on a sportsperson to keep looking if they found one source containing SIGCOV - while also being clear that the article should not be kept or created on the basis of that aspect of SPORTSCRIT unless additional sources containing SIGCOV could be found.
BilledMammal (talk) 07:13, 5 May 2023 (UTC)- More important than who made the edit, none of the support statements in the RfC did so on the basis that it would be a criterion for presuming that the standards for having an article are met. (As I discussed at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 50 § Basic Criteria #5,
Moving the requirement to document sources out of the basic criteria section will avoid implying that documenting is a sufficient criterion to demonstrate notability.
) isaacl (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- More important than who made the edit, none of the support statements in the RfC did so on the basis that it would be a criterion for presuming that the standards for having an article are met. (As I discussed at Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 50 § Basic Criteria #5,
- The guidance provided in the "Basic criteria" section, which discusses sport-specific considerations when evaluating sources, is applicable for all sports figures. The fifth bullet point, though, is only a documentation requirement. isaacl (talk) 00:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- As I said in the AfD,
- I don't think anyone is saying that an article should exist in perpetuity with only one a single GNG source. Just that we have all the time in the world, and in cases where we can't even access appropriate archives that would provide definitive proof one way or another, that we can be pragmatic under the SPORTCRIT. Again I ask, when would we apply this section? Perhaps if that was made clear, it would be clearer on when not to apply it. Nfitz (talk) 04:04, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- The requirement to include a reference to a source in a sports biography is not actually a criterion for presuming that a subject meets Wikipedia's standards for having an article. Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability § Subproposal 5 simply proposed adding a requirement to have a reference to a source to this guideline. It didn't propose a specific section to be modified, nor did it define the change as a criterion. As I discussed earlier, editors have used the "Basic criteria" section to provide additional guidance on how to apply the general notability guideline for sports-related topics. isaacl (talk) 00:46, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- If not in this case, can you give examples when SPORTCRIT is applied? I'd think that's when it would come into play, as there's no rush or rule to delete such articles. Nfitz (talk) 22:42, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- That archived discussion from this year, was pretty inconclusive in my mind. I think what everyone is ignoring is the closing statement for WP:Village_pump_(policy)/Sports_notability#Subproposal_5 where the was clear in the closer's comments for Proposal 5 that even the one source doesn't have to be their from inception! If we to follow the logic in this discussion, BOTH sources have to be there at (or near) implementation - which wasn't what the decision was. Nfitz (talk) 00:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Articles aren't expected to be perfect when initially created. Editors can fix them up by adding an appropriate reference afterwards. I don't feel any of the current discussion is disagreeing with this. The point of the documentation requirement is since editors ought to have found appropriate sources to determine that the standards of having an article are met, they'll save everyone time by including references to those sources in the article. If those sources get found later, such as during a deletion discussion, references can be added then. isaacl (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- In cases where we already have full access to enough media to properly research notability - yes, I agree with you. Which would primarily be for current sportspersons in advanced English-speaking countries - though we aren't doing badly for many Spanish-speaking countries either. However, for cases of many other languages, especially for non-current players, were SPORTCRIT indicates that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article - and we have one GNG article, and can confirm the identity of the player and verifiability of the information, then there's no rush to find that additional GNG reference until such time that we have access to sufficient media. One of the by-products of applying the former reading of SPORTCRIT is that we both increase WP:RECENTISM and WP:Systemic bias issues. Nfitz (talk) 01:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Again, I'm not seeing any disagreement in this discussion regarding taking time to find appropriate sources. Arguments on how much time should be given to find appropriate sources can only be evaluated in the context of specific deletion discussions. isaacl (talk) 01:42, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- In cases where we already have full access to enough media to properly research notability - yes, I agree with you. Which would primarily be for current sportspersons in advanced English-speaking countries - though we aren't doing badly for many Spanish-speaking countries either. However, for cases of many other languages, especially for non-current players, were SPORTCRIT indicates that there are likely sufficient sources to merit a stand-alone article - and we have one GNG article, and can confirm the identity of the player and verifiability of the information, then there's no rush to find that additional GNG reference until such time that we have access to sufficient media. One of the by-products of applying the former reading of SPORTCRIT is that we both increase WP:RECENTISM and WP:Systemic bias issues. Nfitz (talk) 01:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
- Articles aren't expected to be perfect when initially created. Editors can fix them up by adding an appropriate reference afterwards. I don't feel any of the current discussion is disagreeing with this. The point of the documentation requirement is since editors ought to have found appropriate sources to determine that the standards of having an article are met, they'll save everyone time by including references to those sources in the article. If those sources get found later, such as during a deletion discussion, references can be added then. isaacl (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
FWIW, Wikipedia:Notability (sports)/FAQ § Q2 reads:
For contemporary persons, given a reasonable amount of time to locate appropriate sources, the general notability guideline should be met in order for an article to meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. (For subjects in the past where it is more difficult to locate sources, it may be necessary to evaluate the subject's likely notability based on other persons of the same time period with similar characteristics.)