Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Manual of Style/Latter Day Saints page.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Latter Day Saint movement, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Mormonism and the Latter Day Saint movement on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Latter Day Saint movementWikipedia:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementTemplate:WikiProject Latter Day Saint movementLatter Day Saint movement articles

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4

This page has archives. Sections older than 180 days may be automatically archived by when more than 4 sections are present.

Not accurate, correct, and unbias. Changes needed

In the third reference in this article there is a guide cited. This is an unbias reference for originations(such as Wikipedia) to follow. It states:

"While the term “Mormon Church” has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use. Thus, please avoid using the abbreviation “LDS” or the nickname “Mormon” as substitutes for the name of the Church, as in “Mormon Church,” “LDS Church,” or “Church of the Latter-day Saints.”

Thus seems pretty clear that using LDS Church is inaccurate, biased, and somewhat offensive. These are all tenants that Wikipedia strives to combat. Thus organization strives for the most accurate information that can be obtained from its collective. It also works tirelessly to provide users with unbias articles that are free of political agendas. Furthermore, the last thing Wikipedia is about is attempting to be a platform for offensive articles. It only attempts to state facts and truth, and allow the reader to make connections and opinions. Nevertheless, this Manual of Style is clearly not adhering to these tenants, even AFTER citing the very source it conflicts with.

This needs to be updated. According to this church's information, it chooses to NOT be called the LDS Church, but that is the exact thing this Manual of Style insists its editors to use. This needs to change in order to agree with the foundational principles of Wikipedia, or else it jeopardizes Wikipedia's credibility. JaysonsmithNP (talk) 03:55, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia follows convention, it doesn't lead. All of the major publishing institutions, like the Associated Press, still use "LDS Church". If you can find a single Manual of Style (not published by the church), then I think you would have more success changing the MOS here. Something else you can do is to recommend a satisfactory alternative. The recommended alternatives by the church are "Church of Jesus Christ" and "restored Church of Jesus Christ", which are problematic for obvious reasons. Same thing with the church's desired alternative for "Mormonism", which is "the restored gospel of Jesus Christ". Epachamo (talk) 09:34, 17 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Epachamo, the Associated Press stopped using "LDS Church" over four years ago. It even posted an announcement on its Twitter feed (among other places). Even if we ignore that many Latter-day Saints have always felt "LDS Church" to be a slur, I think we're long past the point where others have yet to respect that. TheOtter (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a link to the AP style guide section where it discusses this? I'd get on board with it if we can find a couple good style guides. Looking at recent AP articles about the church, it doesn't look like they are following it if it is there. Epachamo (talk) 08:01, 27 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Epachamo@TheOtter I have access to the AP style guide through my University Library subscriptions. Here are some block quotes from the section titled Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The I hope this helps to clarify.

...capitalization and punctuation of "Latter-day...
...Use the full name of the church on first references, with the church, church members, members of the faith preferred on second and later reference. When necessary for space or clarity or in quotations or proper names, Mormon, Mormons and Latter-day Saints are acceptable.

...The term Mormon is based on the church’s sacred Book of Mormon and remains in common use by members of the faith. When using the church’s full name, include a short explanation such as, the church, widely known as the Mormon church ...

...The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other Latter Day Saints churches that resulted from the splits after Smith’s death. This includes groups that call themselves “fundamentalist...”
— Associated Press, "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The", Associated Press Stylebook (March 8, 2019) Emphasis included in original.

-Jmjosh90 03:26, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, @Jmjosh90. So @Epachamo, according to AP, the only times "M*rmon" or "M*rmons" would be acceptable are:

for space. Does anyone believe Wikipedia is strapped for space?
for clarity. Obviously this is fine, but I would think it completely covered by the next quoted sentence: "When using the church’s full name, include a short explanation such as, the church, widely known as the Mormon church." Given the linked nature of Wikipedia, I would think it sufficient to include something like this in the Church's main article and nowhere else. However, I could deal with a single instance in other articles, as needed. Can you think of any reason any more would be necessary?
in quotations. Obviously, this is both appropriate and correct.
in proper names. This is also (probably more so) correct.

So, I suspect of these four points, the only one that requires any discussion is "for clarity". Thoughts on this?

TheOtter (talk) 12:04, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are overstating how the Associated Press manual of style is used. In their articles, they still use "Mormon" in the title without quotations, and even in the body without quotations whenever a distinction is needed. Outside of the intermountain west, the word "Mormon" is still needed for clarity's sake to know who you are talking about. The vast majority of articles on BBC, New York Times, Associated Press, Salt Lake Tribune still use the term "Mormon" because it is needed for clarity. As an editor I rarely see the term "Mormon" and don't see this as a serious issue on Wikipedia. Can you point to an article where you feel it is an issue? Epachamo (talk) 02:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Italics

Why doesn't Wikipedia use "Book of Mormon" instead of "Book of Mormon"? Isn't that the (shortened) title of the book? We ordinarily use italics for the titles of books. I searched the talk page archives here and at Book of Mormon and didn't find any mention of the italics question. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:13, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@BarrelProof: At Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Religions, deities, philosophies, doctrines, it says "Religious texts are capitalized, but often not italicized (the Bhagavad Gita, the Quran, the Talmud, the Granth Sahib, the Bible)." I don't know why, but that's consistent with "Book of Mormon" and common use I've noticed. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 03:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the specific MoS reference. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:07, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not that this is necessarily relevant, since Wikipedia is its own entity, but that's been the rule in MLA format for at least 30 years. TheOtter (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on mid-sentence and mid-article title capitalization of the in the full name of the LDS Church

There is a request for comment about mid-sentence and mid-article title capitalization of the in the full name of the LDS Church at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Capital letters#RfC on mid-sentence and mid-article title capitalization of the in the full name of the LDS Church. Please contribute there. Thank you. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 12:51, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

LoC subject heading change

Hello, with the recent library of congress subject heading change (to not use the word "Mormon"), one of our catalogers here in the BYU Library, Bob Maxwell, created a webpage to assist in the searching of various denominations within the Latter Day Saint movement. You can read it here. It could be useful for us if we are looking for ways other institutions talk about churches within the movement. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:36, 14 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Change titles containing "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" to "[topic] (LDS Church)"?

I've noticed some page titles include the full name of the church such as List of temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints by geographic region and some contain a shortened version such as the example's child page List of temples in the United States (LDS Church).

Additional examples using official name of the church:

Examples using "[topic] (LDS Church)" format include:

The official church position is to use the full name, but "LDS Church" is commonly used outside the church. The shortened version is more concise, uses less memory space, and simpler to read. I see standards directing use within an article, but not the title.

Is there a standard on how a title should be displayed? If not, should there be a standard?

Thanks - Dmm1169 (talk) 19:25, 23 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]