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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3

"the web"

Did I miss the definition of "the web" in the draft guideline? --Dweller (talk) 09:33, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Which draft guideline? I don't think "the web" was ever defined, as is evidenced by the confusion as to whether it means "the Web" (i.e. the WWW) or the Wikipedia internal "web" (which is the meaning implied by the text. Just one of the reasons why this page was incoherent, and was probably largely ignored for that reason.--Kotniski (talk) 09:37, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Unless I'm missing a trick, how is the Wikipedia internal web ringfenced from the WWW? Hiding T 09:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
It's not. But the text of BTW mentioned only internal links, and the title spelt "web" with a small "W", giving the impression that it was about some internal web. --Kotniski (talk) 10:08, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I still don't follow. In what sense is the internal web we are speaking of not part of the WWW? In what sense, when we build the web on Wikipedia, is that not building the web on the WWW? Hiding T 10:32, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Yes, but BTW doesn't go into this. Our practice with regard to internal links is quite different to that with regard to external links. Yet BTW (despite referring to "the Web" as if it meant the WWW) fails to address external links at all. All these ideas are now addressed at MOSLINK, hopefully more clearly (though improvements are obviously still possible).--Kotniski (talk) 11:03, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not following you at all. In what sense is the internal web we are speaking of not part of the WWW? Hiding T 11:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying that BTW (among its many other faults) fails to make clear what web it is talking about or how the internal web relates to the wider Web.--Kotniski (talk) 11:48, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Um,, I can't relate your statements. Given you indicate you agree the internal web is a part of the WWW, how do the following two statements you make apply? Or are you saying this page is wrong in assuming everyone will be aware that Wikipedia is a part of the WWW? Hiding T 12:14, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I think it's wrong in assuming that people will correctly read the minds of the people who wrote it. Indeed I think the different people who wrote it (and titled it) probably didn't read each other's minds correctly. If it talks about a "Web" without once mentioning the World Wide Web or any way of creating links to/from it, then people will be forgiven for assuming that the Web in question is not the WWW. Particularly since there is no capital W in the page title.--Kotniski (talk) 12:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
This page was created back when you couldn't have a capital w in the page title. And it sprang from a time and a place where its meaning was more readily understood, and was contextualised by being within stuff that talked about the WWW. Sadly, a lot of the history has been lost when the databases went down way back when, though. Hiding T 12:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Whatever you mean, it's ironic that it's not wikilinked. --Dweller (talk) 11:02, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I know I said I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I have to say that this is pedantry taken to the extreme. There's only one [Ww]eb, and you're using it right now. Some people don't bother to capitalize the W. It's not an issue. Anyway, I severely doubt that anyone who read BTW took away the impression that it was referring to some kind of "internal web". The word you're looking for there is site, and this guideline wasn't called Build the site. — Hex (❝?!❞) 12:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

That's exactly the impression that I took away from it. Because that's what it talks about. If it meant something else, it should have said something else. Or as Dweller points out, at least linked to the World Wide Web. --Kotniski (talk) 12:27, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't talk about an internal web. The word internal is not found once in the page. But this is a side issue which can be fixed with rewriting the page to better indicate what it means. Hiding T 12:34, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
As I've pointed out above, this has already been done (the result is MOSLINK).--Kotniski (talk) 12:44, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
You haven't linked web there, either. I made two changes, see where we go from there I guess. Hiding T 12:58, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

I find this reversion unacceptable; if it continues, I will make Kotniski a party to the current arbitration. The way to clean up MOS is to throw pointless rules out of it, not to roll this in.

There is plainly no consensus to merge this page; it should therefore retain its status until there is consensus to change it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:53, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry, but I've reverted the guideline tag because quite clearly there is discussion here and elsewhere that demonstrates the community is unsure of how to move forwards. I think it is best if the page remains untagged for the time being and we allow time for all interested parties to express an opinion. I've also edited your comments because I've found some of your comments unhelpful to moving the debate forwards, which in my opinion is the only thing that matters. Wikipedia policy is to comment on content, not on the contributor. As we say round my way, play the ball, not the man. Hiding T 19:59, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
  • That's not the way consensus works. If there's no consensus to change the status, the status does not return to "undecided", it returns to the prior status. {{Disputedtag}} has been added, which notes that there is an active dispute over this, but the guideline tag should not be removed until a consensus to do so has emerged. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:38, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Consensus works any way we want it to. But I'm not interested in partisan combat. Wikipedia is not a battleground. I'm bowing out, because this sort of tag warring is precisely what I wanted to avoid. I was far more interested in discussing the underlying issues to an amicable solution. I've taken my concerns to MOSLINK. Hiding T 21:50, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
  • Traditionally this is how Wikipedia works: until consensus to change something emerges, it remains as it was (this is how disputes in articles and deletion are handled, for example). I'm sorry you view this as a "battleground", but I've tried to stay away from this for the past week (with pretty good success). I'm also sorry that expressing an opinion appears to result in this now being a "battleground". I have no idea how to voice an opinion then without things falling apart. —Locke Cole • t • c 22:17, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
  • I apologise if I have offended you. I'm fairly well versed in how Wikipedia works, I've been an admin here for over three years now. I have no objection to people voicing their opinion, but I don't tend to engage in edit warring. I am a firm believer in trying to find a compromise, and it had seemed to be a perfectly acceptable compromise to just leave the page without a tag on it, if only to save tag warring. This page doesn't need a special tag to say what it says, when all is said and done. It wasn't the voicing of an opinion that caused me to declare the page a battleground, it's more my general feeling that there isn't going to be a middle ground found in this debate, and I don't want to get sucked into that. I hadn't meant to put it all on your shoulders; from reading and engaging with the debate it appears as if no-one is prepared to shift ground on what to do with this page. I'm practising good old fashioned dispute resolution and taking the long view. Regards, Hiding T 22:42, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

a comment about the merge/revert war/thing

Im sure I read somewhere that if a guideline is in dispute a very senior member of the community has to get involved.  rdunnPLIB  10:25, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

You probably also read somewhere that decisions on WP are taken by consensus, and that when consensus has been reached editors accept that decision. We're all learning fast here.--Kotniski (talk) 10:52, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
to Kotniski=(yes i do know look at when i created my account please dont write at me as though im only new)
as far as I can see there was no proper concensus on the matter even some time ago (the summeries say it was just done) and as its a guideline set out by the head, surely mere editors cant just be the ones to diside what happens with something fundamentle (yes I know its a "guideline" but we must do things properly).  rdunnPLIB  11:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't mean that to be in any way patronizing. But I agree this sort of thing should be decided by an admin; unfortunately admins are loathe to intervene in anything that is in any way complicated, they prefer to just block and go. So we have to operate on the basis of consensus, which we did undoubtedly have in this case (as I keep saying, the discussion was not on this page, but it was well advertised here, in case anyone was watching). However as you see, a certain clique has discovered that consensus needn't be a barrier to anything - it's how determinedly you can edit-war and stir up trouble that actually decides things. I've started a thread about this, now at WP:VPP#Is edit-warring the way we establish consensus?.--Kotniski (talk) 11:19, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Substance

Setting aside the question of whether it should have been merged, does anyone actually disagree with what this page says? And if so, could they be specific about what is wrong? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:36, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Go back to the original discussion (the recent one at WT:MOSLINK) and read through the "arguments against resurrection", which no one has disputed. --Kotniski (talk) 07:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
That would be here.
  • I see lots of arguments that this page can be merged, as redundant; that's the position that this page is right, but doesn't need to be repeated.
  • GregL said it was incomplete, in that it omits his own motion in an RFC; but even that's not disagreeing with it; all our guidelines are incomplete.
  • LaserBrain said, in full I've been monitoring this process and it's been going in the right direction; reinstating BTW is a step entirely in the wrong direction. That is a claim that this page is wrong, but lacks all specifics; indeed, it's another WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:02, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh come on, omit all the pertinent arguments and attack the straw men. It's redundant (because anything it says is said elsewhere) and misleading (because it omits important relevant information). Why anyone's arguing for this except out of pique or sentiment is beyond me - I've certainly seen no explanation.--Kotniski (talk) 16:26, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I omit all the procedural arguments on whether this page should be merged, because they have their own section. To me, that's not the most interesting question (and enough people are pained by it above that it's unlikely to be a peaceful consensus). Before we discuss where to put this, does anybody disagree with what it says, which is rather more important? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
It really doesn't say anything concrete, so it's hard to say. I certainly disagree with its being stated without qualification and then marked as a guideline (which would imply only "occasional exceptions"). --Kotniski (talk) 08:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Overruling consensus

We were having a civil and productive discussion here, and yet it has been derailed by the usual clique coming along and awarding itself the right to overrule established consensus. The merge of this page had consensus, when it was proposed that it be restored as a guideline there was consensus not to (or certainly there was no consensus to do so). I find it totally unacceptable and disruptive for certain individuals to take it upon themselves to throw out what people have agreed in detailed and thoughtful discussion, awarding themselves the right to declare an absence of consensus and to decree unilaterally how things are to be in the absence of consensus. There is clearly no point arguing with you lot, since your well-established tactic is simply to deny any assertion of consensus regardless of the objective evidence, citing the noise you yourselves are curretly making as evidence that consensus doesn't exist or never existed, and to further edit war as a means of creating more of that noise and disrupting reasoned discussion. I've had to report this again at WP:AN/I - I hope that we'll get the attention of an admin perceptive enough to see through what's been happening here. If not, then OK, you win; WP will no longer be ruled by the good sense to come out of community discussion, but by those most willing to waste their and others' time fighting. --Kotniski (talk) 10:11, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

I've been over this with you further above, at MOSLINK and on your own talk page. I'm sorry you'd rather treat Wikipedia like a battleground than understand the reasons I've given you. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
That is to say, a number of editors have objected to the "consensus" consisting of Kotniski and Tony1. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
You know, because you were part of the discussion (at least the more recent one) at WP:MOSLINK, that the consensus consisted of far more people than that. Locke knows (because he was part of the original discussion about the merger) that there was wide ranging support then (including him), and no opposition (apart from a brief outbreak of handbags that was quickly settled). You usually seem such a reasonable and sensible editor; I don't know why you are inventing your own version of reality over this issue (and then accusing me of lying).--Kotniski (talk) 10:45, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Particularly as Cole seems to have "changed his mind" over the consensus he was part of, just at the same time Kendrick decided to make a fuss here. It's not reasonable, and not the way things are done on WP. I agree entirely with Kotniski's complaint above.
What information, exactly, does this page contain that is somehow lacking in the merged MOSLINK? What is the actual substance of this page? It looks like an essay stub. It is not of the style or substance of a guideline, and there was consensus to merge it, after the merge sign had been there for months, to remove an historical absurdity. MOS needs to be rationalised, not fragmented. Tony (talk) 14:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
And see what two editors show up to complain. I acknowledge that the two of them are in consensus on this; but is anybody else?
Tony asks, as usual, the wrong question: what is MOSLINK that it should justify swallowing up this page, which has never been part of MOS? since it really deals with a content, not a style, question.
Rationalizing MOS should begin with abolishing the large portion of it which has neither justification nor source, not making it longer. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:12, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I strongly support MOS containing only questions about style, not about content in general. That's the first step in rationalizing it. DGG (talk) 00:06, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
But links are neither a matter of style, i.e. spelling and punctuation, nor content, i.e. whether content is or is not linked doesn't inherently change the actual content. So it's its own matter entirely, more a matter of "accessibility" than anything else. -- Kendrick7talk 04:44, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
So we have a guideline page about linking. It's now at WP:Linking - anyone can decide for themselves whether the issues addressed are about style, content or whatever: it doesn't matter. What matters is that it's a page that treats the issue in full and has come about through reasoned, long-term, constructive, good-faithed discussion, so as to be useful both for guiding new editors and for resolving (some) disagreements. There is no longer any need for this separate page (at least, not for it to be marked as a guideline), and since it is so manifestly incomplete it is most definitely not desirable. Anyway, we've been through that discussion, consensus has been reached as you all know by now, so please, people, accept that consensus like good Wikipedians, quit the against-consensus reverts (especially those based on untrue claims), and let's move on. --Kotniski (talk) 07:16, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
If consensus had been reached, we would not be having this discussion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:11, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
How does that follow? Consensus doesn't mean unaninimity.--Kotniski (talk) 16:21, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I wandered over here from AN/I....I'd never heard of this page before now. But looking this page over and a few of the links above (including a poll that hardly ran past a day and didn't draw much input) I don't see any of the consensus you're talking about. I think you should start over, in a single place and try again. But I think that just claiming consensus where none exists is counter productive. If I'm wrong, please provide a link to a page that more clearly show consensus on this issue. RxS (talk) 17:09, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I've just added the relevant links to the AN/I thread. WT:Only make links that are relevant to the context/Archive 7 seems to be the major one. There was certainly much, much more than just a one-day poll. And we did recently start again, and got the same result. Clear consensus must be respected - if someone wants to change it, it's up to them to start a new discussion and achieve change. We can't have a situation where whenever a vociferous group decides it doesn't like something, they can go back to whatever version they feel like and insist on their opponents once again demonstrating consensus. That goes on forever and is what happened (and is still happening) over date linking. --Kotniski (talk) 08:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Clear consensus doesn't need to be "respected"; it can enforce itself (although it rarely needs to, because almost everybody agrees with it). Kotniski's claim of consensus is: Tony and I agreed once upon a time, so the discussion is over. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:43, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Your edit summary states "reply to liar". I assume that means me. What "lie" am I alleged to have told? Indeed, what is your claim about only Tony and me supporting this position if not a demonstrable and deliberate lie? --Kotniski (talk) 15:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
That you have "clear consensus". It's clear to you, and to nobody else; it isn't even clear to the unfortunate RxS, who wandered in here as a neutral. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I presume it is now, if (s)he's looked at the links to the relevant discussions. You obviously have your own definition of consensus, which means something approaching unanimity, without requiring that the filibusterers engage in good-faithed discussion. Talking of which, can we get back to that? Is there any remaining reasoned opposition to removing the "guideline" tag from this page?--Kotniski (talk) 16:06, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Is your presumption supported by any evidence, or is more I'm Kotniski, and therefore everybody agrees with me? Of course this should stay a guideline; the only objections to the substance are by those who claim, by the same post, not to understand it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Er, if we don't understand it, that isn't a great advertisement for a guideline, is it? If you understand it, can you explain in more dumbed-down language what it's supposed to mean, and explain how it is not redundant to WP:Linking?--Kotniski (talk) 16:33, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Since it seems to me, as to most people, clear, concise, and substantive, it is difficult to paraphrase without cutting and pasting. I'll see what I can do; to cut down several sentences to a phrase or two would be unfair to the original.
  • But the version in MOSLINK differs in both tone and emphasis, as may be expected after butchery by editors who do not understand it. I would not include this there, even if it were identical; this is not a mere "style guideline", those crutches put forward by the half-educated for the illiterate, it is the second grade of WP principle, and repeating it elsewhere is no reason to get rid of it, any more than repeating one of the Five Pillars elsewhere would justify a merge. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:48, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Style guidelines are no more "mere" than other guidelines. This never had any higher status than the MoS pages, and can never have had anything comparable to the status of the 5 pillars, otherwise at least someone would have tried to edit it up to normal standards of clarity and cohesion over all these years. Indeed it (or at least its title) seems at odds with one of the pillars - namely WP:NOT, which tells us that WP is not a collection of links, particularly external ones. We specifically refrain from too much "building of the Web".--Kotniski (talk) 08:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • My definition of consensus is WP:Consensus (as a whole, but these sentences seem particularly apt: Consensus develops from agreement of the parties involved. This can happen through discussion, editing, or more often, a combination of the two.) What definition can possibly justify Kotniski's claims of "clear consensus"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Whatever. I still can't see what on earth this guideline has that WP:LINK doesn't. This makes me suspect that it's being treated as a private castle. I'd like to hear substantive arguments. Another matter I'd like explained is why the tone and poor prose qualifies as a guideline. I mean, the opening sentence is a hoot. The logic of the causality, resting on "since" escapes me. Comma would be nice, too. It's full of that kind of idle musing. What are you defending, Anderson? I thought you were on the side of high standards? Tony (talk) 16:41, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, sentence by sentence: why is MOS fragmentation required?

Further to Kotniski's point above, I've listed all of the text on the page here, with comments below.

BTW sentences

  1. Build the Web is the idea of connecting relevant topics throughout an article since all articles in the encyclopedia are nodes in a hypertext system. Do not just write the article, but also consider its place in the web.
  2. Make upward links to categories and contexts (Charles Darwin was a biologist; Sahara is a desert in Africa; the Enlightenment happened in the 18th century). Make sideways links to neighboring articles (for proton see also electron, Oregon borders on California). Introduce links from related articles to avoid orphaning the article.
  3. Do not build category trees too deep and narrow, or too flat. Writing category directories first (top-down) will help ensure that subcategory articles get useful names.
  4. Think carefully before you remove a link altogether (apart from the case of a duplicate link). Remember that what may seem like an irrelevant link to you may actually be useful to other readers.
  5. Don't be afraid to create links to articles which don't exist yet. If you think there should be an article with that title, then be bold and make the link. Of course, the best way to build the web is to then go ahead and write that article.
  6. Remember that a link can also be useful when applying the "What links here" feature from the target page.
  7. If you feel that a certain link does not belong in the body of the text, consider moving it to a "See also" section at the bottom of the article. This keeps the web intact while removing overlinking.

Comments by Tony1

  1. This appears to be so close in meaning to the opening of WP:LINKING as to be redundant.
  2. The "upward", "downward" and "sideways" concepts are probably worth a mention at LINKING. The examples, aside from "desert" in most contexts, are covered at LINKING, I'd have thought. In any case, it would be more useful to show editors examples of where, say, "desert" might be an appropriate link (perhaps a pipe to the flora and fauna section of "Desert" from an article on the kangaroo rat or the prickly pear), rather than implying that "desert" should normally be linked.
  3. Can someone explain what a "category tree" is (for less experienced editors), and what it is to build them "too deep and narrow, or too flat"? An example is needed for "top–down"—I'm ignorant of what it could mean. This could easily be included somewhere in LINKING, if it's useful (convince us).
  4. Perhaps this could be noted at LINKING explicitly; however, I think it's already implied, isn't it?
  5. Is there disagreement between this and "Red links" at LINKING, or the article on Red links? If so, could we resolve it?
  6. This feature is discussed at Link maintenance in LINKING. Is it in conflict? If so, it must be very subtle.
  7. This should definitely be included in LINKING.

So what is the problem? Can we agree which little bits might be added to LINKING, please, and then all get back to improving WP? Tony (talk) 11:18, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree with your points, and with the proposal to move relevant aspects of this page to WP:LINKING.
The "quality" of the current four paragraphs (a result of 219 edits over a period of seven years) suggest a general disinterest in the improvement of the page. "Think carefully.." and "Don't be afraid..."? Seriously? In general, the page is weak on practical advice for WP's editors ("do not build category trees too deep and narrow, or too flat."—what is the practical point of that "advice"?). Although I am in favour of the bit about considering the movement of certain links into the See Also section of an article. On the other hand, WP:LINKING takes some time and effort to offer practical advice and useful guidelines. The simple fact that WP:LINKING has attracted almost twice the edits in just over half the lifespan of this page indicates a clear preference as to which page is worthy of being developed.
The few practical aspects of the whimsical jottings on this page should be subsumed into WP:LINKING. If I were a BOLDer editor, I'd do that and consider suggesting this page for deletion. However, truth be told the page may be worth keeping for amusement-sake alone (I certainly derive some amusement from noticing that the final word in an "essay" promoting the use of links, is "overlinking").
 HWV258  00:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments by ...

  • This existed before MOS:Linking, and independently of it. The best response to duplication is to remove the recent redundancy in the MOS:Linking page.
    Why? What has the history to do with it? Why cover the same topic on two different pages? How does that help readers? (Your other two points read like bitter invective and don't contribute to the discussion.)--Kotniski (talk) 11:59, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
    There are two paths to reduce redundancy, if it's a problem: one in each article. Our normal approach is to explain in full in a separate article, and summarize on other pages; this would imply reducing the inclusion in LINKING, if anything. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
But BTW as it stands doesn't explain anything in full; anything it says, WP:LINKING (or some other guideline, like WP:CAT) explains much better. Unless you can point to an exception. But BTW is so short anyway that almost certainly anything it says can be included in LINKING without making the latter page too long. Anyway, down to specifics please. --Kotniski (talk) 16:08, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
  • "Fragmenting" an annexation of last month is the cry of poor beleaguered imperialists everywhere; as always, Tony fails to ask the question: why should any of this be in a style guideline at all?
  • He should learn to confine his itch for "authority" to more hierarchical societies than WP. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Anderson, you should know by now that I spurn hierarchy. The only authority we need here is that of style guides, not people. This guideline needs to be returned to bed and one or two morsels, if people insist, included in LINKING. What exactly did you say was unique info here? Tony (talk) 01:37, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Misquotation again, I see. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:51, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Alive/dead/alive/dead/alive/dead/alive...

Unfortunately the rollback feature doesn't let you add an edit summary, which is a bit daft. What I would have said just now was that so far I count at least five separate editors challenging the "consensus" to demote this guideline. So I've returned it to disputed guideline status. — Hex (❝?!❞) 09:03, 2 March 2009 (UTC) (giving up all attempts to not participate in this)

But you and I know that they are unware of the facts or being simply disnhonest. You know that consensus has been properly established - why are you, an admin, playing along with their cynical game?--Kotniski (talk) 09:07, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
I know no such thing. — Hex (❝?!❞) 09:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Right, deny the consensus. That's the game plan. Whether it's date linking, this, whatever else. No-one can enforce consensus, so if you don't like it, just ignore it. You know we had a discussion, you know all the arguments came down on one side, you know a clear majority supported that viewpoint, but of course, no-one can prove that you know it, so just claim it's not so. I expect this sort of behaviour from mad POV-pushers, but as an admin, you should be very ashamed. (By the way, rollback is for edits that don't require a summary; to add a summary you should use undo instead.)--Kotniski (talk) 10:50, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, rollback should only be used for vandalism; this was a misuse of rollback by Hex. For future reference, there are scripts that allow users to use their own edit summaries. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:30, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

How soon we forget

Hex, remember writing this? Or was that your good twin?

WT:Linking#Resurrect this guideline?

Namely WP:Build the web. Note: for the time being, I have restored the text of the guideline, as it is unfair to expect that people can argue for the life of someone when then have already been executed. This is for discussion purposes, not edit warring, and I will adhere to the eventual result of the discussion. — Hex (❝?!❞) 12:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Emphasis added by me.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:12, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and the discussion's not over. Do you have a point to make? — Hex (❝?!❞) 20:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
You know, there must be some uncounted ballots still floating around from the November 2008 presidential elections. In your mind, is Dubya still the prez?--Goodmorningworld (talk) 20:37, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
What a silly comment. — Hex (❝?!❞) 20:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
The discussion does seem to be long over (back at WT:MOSLINK#Resurrect this guideline, which was the discussion in question). Please abide by the result and remove the guideline tag. If some new discussion here leads to the conclusion that the tag should be restored, then it can be done.--Kotniski (talk) 08:50, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
The discussion is clearly not over. Unless you're contending that all the talk right here on this page is a mirage, which would undoubtedly come as a great surprise to everyone participating in it. — Hex (❝?!❞) 04:01, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Most of it is off-topic. The only person who seems to be making any attempt to justify the guideline tag is Sept, and he seems to have gone strangely silent when asked for specifics. Can anyone else help him? We'd like to know what this page is actually trying to say, why it needs to be said on a page separate from WP:Linking, and why that separate page should be marked as a guideline. --Kotniski (talk) 08:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • How soon you forget: remember this one, Hex?

Oppose. As said above, candidate is condescending and contemptuous,

rude and snippy and plainly in that class of admin who would immediately set out causing grief and bloodshed. Such things are a big deal.

Would recommend not returning to RfA in future.

Tony (talk) 15:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Unfortunately, the public seemed to have forgotten that, and he got through on the third pass. However, I seem to recollect Hex standing on the 'common sense' ticket. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:55, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I have my own opinions on Hex's RfA and administrative capabilities. However, they are not relevant to this discussion; can we all try to stay focused on content and not individual contributors? Dabomb87 (talk) 02:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
That'll be the day. — Hex (❝?!❞) 03:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

"Silly comment"? Not at all. You see Hex, last I checked, the discussion had ground to a halt more than two weeks ago. At that point, six editors had spoken in favor of umerging "Build the Web" into a separate page and twelve editors were against. Not only were the opponents of an unmerge in a 2-to-1 majority, their arguments were more detailed as well. To any rational observer, the discussion is over. Apparently, when you gave the undertaking that I quoted above, what you really meant was, "The discussion will be over when I, Hex, am good and ready to declare it so, be that next week, next year, or never."--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been watching this over the last couple days and have a couple comments. First of all, the debate here has gotten a little heated and it might be a good thing to step back for a bit. Secondly, to the point I've not seen compelling evidence that a consensus exists here. The strongest case seems to be here [1], and for something like this I think it's borderline. At this point I myself would say the the discussion still needs to continue and that no consensus has been achived. I think you'd be doing yourself a favor by making sure many more editors are involved...RxS (talk) 15:39, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
RxS, I've explained why I think the effort to change the status quo failed with a 1-to-2 losing margin. Perhaps you could explain why exactly you think the discussion is not over yet?--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, the short answer is that no consensus appears to have been achieved and people are still interested in talking about it. Cliche or not, consensus isn't defined by numbers, and even if it was 2 - 1 normally is pretty borderline. One thing I agree...in the absence of agreement, the status quo stays in effect, but I suspect that your idea of what status quo means regarding this page may be disputed. RxS (talk) 02:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
If consensus isn't defined by numbers, then by what? Strength of argument? Can you point to any cogent argument anyone has made in favour of keeping this page as a separate guideline that hasn't been answered? Can you point to any meaningful attempt to challenge the very concrete arguments we have made for keeping it merged? And as for the status quo - that's surely defined by the last time consensus was clearly reached, isn't it? Which - if you sincerely dispute that the most recent discussion clearly reached consensus, which I find hard to believe if you've read it - was in the discussion leading to the merge (perhaps 100-0 is a large enough numerical majority to convince even you?) Can you offer any justification at all for the actions of those who have forced their wishes on the community which clearly wished for something different?--Kotniski (talk) 15:10, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
One big mistake you're making is claiming that you speak for the community. There's been nowhere near enough participants in any of this for that claim to be valid. Another mistake you're making is thinking I care about this. I don't, in fact it's an idiotic thing to be generating so much heat. Having said that, as someone who walked into this from a section at AN/I, and who has read most of the material linked, I can't see a strong enough consensus for this to be forced. And since that's the case, the status quo would be to leave the page in the basic state it's been for years. Status quo is not the disputed claim of a consensus I see here.
But perhaps the biggest mistake you're making is to be so argumentative with someone (me) who couldn't be more neutral. It appears to me that instead of asking for a uninvolved opinion, you are really asking for an uninvolved opinion that agrees with you. These are the argumentative styles and your attitude is the kind of attitude that has made me less and less interested in being involved here. You're doing more damage to Wikipedia by your ideological insistence that you must be right than whatever becomes of this page.
It's too bad because, though unconvinced, I'm sympathatic to the arguments you and others are making (and yes, I've read them). I don't see a lot of value in having multiple pages (as guidelines) talk about the same concepts. One danger is that they can start drifting apart and you end up with guidelines that differ or even contradict each other.
But I first participated here because of a request for uninvolved input and now you have it. For better or worse this debate needs more involvement. The people here at present are way to polarized to make any headway. Reboot this, use the RFC process, open a fresh start at the Pump...do whatever it takes. But for now, I agree with the page protection and consider there's no consensus for anything at this point...so, Status quo stands. RxS (talk) 18:41, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
There has been plenty of publicity already. In addition to two threads at AN/I and references at the Village Pump, notices have been up for weeks at WP:CENT and at the Wikipedia Signpost. If no additional editors are commenting, chances are that they are not interested, don't want to throw in their lot with a losing cause, or don't want to pile onto what is already a clear majority.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 18:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I really don't know how anyone can claim that this issue (merging a few fairly obscure guidelines) deserves even the amount of attention it has got, let alone more. You seem to have been misled by the noise certain people are suddenly making, creating the impression that this is a major controversy. There is no doubt at all that there was consensus to make the merge; there is no doubt at all that there is no consensus to reverse it. If consensus counts for anything at Wikipedia, then that should be enough. (I'm not being argumentative, I'm just arguing; I don't doubt your good faith or neutrality, but I hope that I can persuade you to think again.)--Kotniski (talk) 07:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Civility

Please avoid insults and comments on personal traits of wikipedians. Statements like this: admins are loathe to intervene in anything that is in any way complicated do not contribute to cooperation, not to say it is false and misleading. Please discuss the subject, not the editors. Calling names is not only uncivil, it is merely waste of people's time and delay of the solution. - 7-bubёn >t 18:57, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, just where are Kotniski's "insults", and why is the comment about admins (technical, as far as I can see) a problem? Tony (talk) 02:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
This statement, technical or not, falsely portrays "admins" en masse as lazy or reckless ones, willing to deal with simple cases only. It is a problem because it may be perceived as an insult, even it was not intended as such. - 7-bubёn >t 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Now that you asked and I am here, I'd like to mention that I have an impression that this phrase expresses a misconception that admins possess some kind of supersmartness to sole any problems quickly. They are not. They have certain tools, only because they have a degree of credibility they will not abuse these tools, since they are powerful. In all other respects they are not supposed to be better or smarter or faster than you. Quite a few very experienced editors do not want to have admin privileges. And opposite way, quite a few admins were desysopped despite all their smartness: they are human and may err, sometimes badly. - 7-bubёn >t 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Further, I picked the phrase in question at random. This talk page is abound of other examples of treading on personalities. It does not matter whether the person is good or bad. If he is good, then accusations are bad. If he is bad, he will just laugh. In both cases you gain nothing, only waste the bandwidth. The basic behavior policy, WP:NPA states is simply and plainly: Comment on content, not on the contributor. I understand that sometimes a person for some reason appears to defy any logic. There are venues of community dispute resolution barring personal confrontation. - 7-bubёn >t 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I am not sure to what level of detail I have to explain you wikipedia policies. If you still feel unconvinced, please answer my question first: what exactly is unclear in the rule "Comment on content, not on the contributor"? - 7-bubёn >t 04:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I never mentioned or even implied any specific individuals, so I don't think I was being in any way uncivil. It was meant as a criticism of the system and the behaviours that the system encourages, not of admins as people. --Kotniski (talk) 08:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Your statment unfortunatly does not read like that. rdunnPLIB  12:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Now that I have time to read K's statement at normal speed, yes, he might have avoided the criticism of admins. However, I believe there is over-reaction here. Admins' time would be better spent convincing a few of their colleagues not to block as a first rather than a last resort, and to communicate properly before and after the blocking. These are both policy requirements, and an incident only last week exposed wanton disregard of these rules. Kotniski's statement may have been slightly out of place here, but needs to be made in quite a few places on WP. Tony (talk) 14:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
    "Slightly out of place" is a slightly correct statement. Any postfactum out-of-context whining will not change the system. If you think that the actions of certain admins are improper, you must discuss them in appropriate venues. This particular page is about improvement of a particular article. Once again, my remark is not limited to the comment about the admin. I stumbled upon this talk page by a sheer acccident, and I was quite surprized that such an abstract topic generated so much heat. It is not, like, Palestinian-Israel conflict here. I suggest to forget all "yes, but", apologize to each other (even if you feel you should not), and keep on. Please notice I am not threatening nobody with blocks, so I don't accept the accusation in "over-reaction". Don't you know that mutual incivility has an ugly tendency to escalate? I understand that sometimes a person just has to vent their frustration. But is this topic really worth anger? - 7-bubёn >t 16:53, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I would merely add the observation, as a fact and not intended as a criticism of anyone, that my report at AN/I was archived before any admin responded (either positively or negatively) to the substantial evidence I provided. This does indeed indicate to me that "difficult" matters are less likely to attract admin attention. Only natural I suppose - if I were an admin, I'd prefer the quick and easy jobs as well - but I think part of the problem is that admins are expected just to act on the basis of what they see without talking to the parties first, which (if it were me) would discourage me from acting in those cases where I'd feel a need to discuss the parties' positions with them before judging.--Kotniski (talk) 11:29, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Admins are not expected to act without talking. It all depends on circumstances. The complaints are often closed when (1) coming from only one person, when no furter escalation occurs after the initial complaint or (2) there is no evidence that milder forms of wikipedia dispute resolution were attempted. - There are serious resons to do so, I will not go into detail here. In other words, quite on the contrary of your perception, the admins are supposed to undertake "long and difficult jobs", leaving "quick and easy" ones to be dissolved by themselves or by the community efforts, without resorting to ten-pound hammer. - 7-bubёn >t 16:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
That will be why an admin came in and protected this page in a particular form without explaining or talking to anyone? That must have been really long and difficult. --Kotniski (talk) 15:32, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
And I see that no one who is hankering after retaining this page has bothered to address my sentence-by-sentence list below. The silence suggests that no one does believe it's useful. Tony (talk) 15:38, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Warnock's Dilemma — Hex (❝?!❞) 15:44, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Almost every single one of your comments is of the "[is in / should be in] LINKING", without much explanation as to why. LINKING is a style guideline, BTW is a content guideline. MOS is no place for content decisions to be made. —Locke Cole • t • c 21:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Please justify your assertions. Why is LINKING a style guideline and BTW a content guideline? To me they seem to be talking about the same thing, except that LINKING does it far more clearly and comprehensively. I don't know if links count as style or content or neither or both, but it doesn't matter - whichever it is, both guidelines are of the same type. --Kotniski (talk) 07:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
PS I've changed the label on WP:Linking (from style to editing guideline), if that makes you any happier.--Kotniski (talk) 09:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • No, it's your dilemma if there is utterly no case that this little page has anything to contribute—that is, if you still hanker to retain it in any form other than an historical relic. Tony (talk) 15:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Nice dodge. — Hex (❝?!❞) 17:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

If no one can argue for the usefulness of the statements on the page, it should be put to bed

Again, I point out that not one person has argued above why any one of the statements on the page should be retained as a separate guideline. I've numbered them for easy reference. The silence makes me suspect that this page is being touted as a guideline for political purposes alone—as a symbol. This is not a good reason to fragment the Manual of Style. Our editors deserve clear advice on linking, on a single page. Fragmentation would be a disservice to them. Tony (talk) 08:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, and so does the community as we've seen. We've heard only rhetoric from the supporters of this guideline; every attempt to engage them in discussion over specifics has met with silence or worse. This merger has been decided twice by consensus; it should be (again) implemented. If there are no counter-arguments of substance then we should make an editprotected request, asking for the guideline tag to be removed. If it was just about this page I wouldn't mind so much, but the unresolved status here is causing edit warring elsewhere (e.g. at WP:Linking over how to link or refer to BTW; at Template:Wikipedia policies and guidelines and Template:Guideline list over whether this and/or WP:Linking should be selected for listing). --Kotniski (talk) 08:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Tony, not everyone need respond to you for them to still disagree with what you and Kotniski want to do. Perhaps you and Kotniski should "put to bed" any dreams you two may have of demoting this and expanding your MOS power grab beyond MOS pages... —Locke Cole • t • c 10:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Again, no response of substance; you seem to be sharing Sept's delusions that this is about some kind of power struggle. No-one has any power over any pages beyond their ability to convince others of their point of view. If you think that we have some power over MOS pages (which is nonsense anyway), then why are you fighting to keep the main Linking page marked as MOS? Please answer also as to why it helps readers to keep this page separate. Just saying "I disagree" and refusing to discuss further is, to my mind, no disagreement at all.--Kotniski (talk) 10:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, Cole, substantive engagement on the parts of BTW you believe are unique and useful is required, not personalised attacks. Accusing people of power grabs? Hello? Tony (talk) 10:42, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm done with you Tony. I'm not responding to any more of your attempts to skew and steer discussion away from the real subject here: your attempt to kill any guideline you disagree with, repeatedly, until you get your way. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
That's a laugh. Tony has done more than anyone to steer discussion towards the real issues. No guideline has been killed - everything of relevance anyone's pointed to (and they've been consistently asked to do so) that was in BTW has been incorporated into Linking. If you can't discuss the questions of substance, then stop edit warring and leave others to discuss in peace.--Kotniski (talk) 10:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I'll be absolutely clear here. The merge of BTW with MOSLINK was a complete mistake, based on misstated and nonexistent "consensus" (28 hours of discussion to merge a seven year guideline is wrong, especially when Tony had been trying (and failing) to otherwise demote this page). Further, that merge placed a content guideline (when to link) with a style guideline (how links should appear), and that's a power grab by MOS-types to legitimize their other pages which cover "when to link". Stop trying to suck more and more into MOS via these backdoor and shady shenanigans. —Locke Cole • t • c 10:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Your logic is still faulty - sure, if MOSLINK was about how links should appear, then it would be a style guideline, but it is about when to link, and should therefore not be a style guideline according to your own logic. But you oppose me when I try to mark it as any other guideline, on the entirely unsupported premise that style guidelines are of lower status thatn editing guidelines, and with deluded and ridiculous claims about power grabbing.--Kotniski (talk) 10:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and it's highly dishonest to keep repeating this "28 hours of discussion" claim when links have already been provided to show that discussion took place over months - especially since you were there yourself and supported the merge. --Kotniski (talk) 11:13, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Nothing dishonest about it: there was a 28 hour discussion which was closed and marked off with the uninviting "this discussion is concluded"-type template. No discussion occurred after that (at least nothing significant) until January, when you had the merged page completed. Claiming existing longstanding consensus, you, Tony and others moved forward with the merge. I agreed because, like a complete moron, I actually believed you and the MOS regulars when you claimed discussion had already occurred. This left discussion at parsing out the final wording of the (supposedly supported) merge. —Locke Cole • t • c 11:43, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • I would appreciate it if you stopped personalising the issue: I seem to be crop up in most of your statements, as though you have an obsession with/against me; I would be more comfortable talking with you on technical matters without this personalising. Where is your engagement with each statement, as laid out above, to determine just why the clock should be turned back? Tony (talk) 11:52, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • We're here because of more of your poor behavior. The root cause of this latest dispute is simply this: Tony doesn't like it, Tony has tried repeatedly to downgrade/delete/otherwise kill this guideline, and he finally got one of his attempts through after asking and re-asking (and having discussion cut short in the process, with Tony not objecting in the interests of fairness). Things regarding MOS would go more smoothly if you simply weren't involved, IMHO. —Locke Cole • t • c 12:09, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Yes, stop the personal attacks; you have yet to answer the questions of why you say this guideline has been "killed", i.e. what of substance it said that is not in WP:Linking now, and what use it serves as a separate page. I hope that people observing these discussions can see who's trying to be constructive and who's continually derailing any attempts at rational discussion. If you don't want to take part in the constructive debate, then please be silent and let others do so.--Kotniski (talk) 13:25, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely NOT. I refuse to remain silent while Tony and you steamroll another discussion. YOU'VE BEEN TOLD, REPEATEDLY, that you have no consensus for this. You were even told this by an uninvolved admin after you WENT FISHING for support at AN/I. Now you're fishing at the village pump, seemingly desperate to find anyone who might be fooled by these antics. —Locke Cole • t • c 13:40, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
I raised a separate issue at the pump. Because you edit war in so many places, and never make any attempt to start reasoned discussion yourself, I have to take on the job of initiating discussion about all our disputed issues, and the appropriate forum may be different in each case. If you believe that there is no consensus, then prove it by making a coherent case of some sort about the issues. Or sit back and let someone else do it. While all the arguments are on one side, consensus must lie on that side.--Kotniski (talk) 13:46, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
As you have repeatedly shown an inability to accept what others have told you, I am making proposals regarding your conduct here at the RFAR. Please look at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Date delinking/Workshop in my section. I note you've entirely ignored my comment regarding the uninvolved admin trying to explain the lack of consensus to you. —Locke Cole • t • c 13:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Oh puhleasse. Take a deep breath, calm down, and tell us, sentence-by-sentence, why this page was brought out of the closet. Still no substantive discussion, just personal attacks and political moves. Tony (talk) 14:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Could we, for the sake of the argument, please simply assume that Kotniski and Tony1 want BTW merged into MOSLINK because they want to increase their own power over Wikipedia and in order to drive Locke Cole into insanity so that they can get rid of the only remaining obstacle to complete wiki domination. And that they went about it using the most unethical methods possible. I suggest taking these editors' crimes to a forum where they can actually be dealt with. What we need to discuss here is whether, just by accident, the side-effect of these crimes – the merging of two guideline/whatever documents that discuss(ed) the same issue incompletely (at least one of them) and in such a way that they seem(ed) to contradict each other – happened to be also constructive and beneficial to the project or not.

In other words: We have institutions like WP:ANI for discussing editor behaviour, so that talk pages like the present one can be kept almost completely free of the discussion of perceived personal issues, process violations or similar issues that have no relevance whatsoever for improving the pages in question. This page currently consists almost exclusively of such irrelevant arguments and that must change. --Hans Adler (talk) 13:51, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. And given the number of times and places that Kotniski has forum shopped the issue (including AN/I) without receiving so much as a whisker of support from the administrative community, that speaks volumes about the validity of his and Tony1's actions. — Hex (❝?!❞) 14:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Oh dear: I think you completely missed his irony. Tony (talk) 16:06, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Are you feeling alright? Seeing irony where it doesn't exist is often a sign of dizziness. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:15, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
See what Adler said above about personalising? Your edit summary is sarcastic. Remember that you are expected to set an example of civility and NPA and AGF as an admin, rather than indulging your whim. I think you need to read WP:ADMIN closely. You were not a good choice as an admin, it seems, although although I do not doubt that you are capable of taking your responsibilities and policy obligations more seriously; I'm sure many people would encourage you to do so. Note also that you are expected not to bring your personal views on users to other forums. Tony (talk) 16:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
"Oh dear yourself" is sarcasm? I think a little dictionary browsing would be time well spent on your part. — Hex (❝?!❞) 16:37, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

an idea for a solution

Iv'e just thought that we could keep BTW but create a tag to go on the top that says "contravertial guideline" or sommat like that and put in the tag words along the lines of "this page is kept as a historical reference but can be still implemented if you wish" or "this is a guideline guideline" (ie you dont have to do it if you dont want to)  rdunnPLIB  10:50, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well yes, that's what most people want to do (mark it as an essay, historical page, former guideline or whatever), and is no doubt what would have happened in a saner world. However a tenacious minority object, and for some reason this means we have to have it their way. (I must work out how Wikipedia really works one day...) --Kotniski (talk) 14:31, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
If its what most people want to do, how is it in a minority?  rdunnPLIB  10:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
I think Kotniski's saying that most people want it marked as a former guideline. That is my understanding, at least until these proponents provide, sentence-by-sentence, a good reason this should exist aside from MOSLINK; the latter seems to embody everything here. See my setting out of the text in little chunks for such justification. No one seems willing to engage with the facts. Tony (talk) 10:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
so why dont we do that is thats what the majority want then? i would call that a concensus. rdunnPLIB  10:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Well, we did that back a few months ago; the current situation is connected with the rather nasty goings-on about date-autoformatting and the linking of chronological items, including an ArbCom hearing. That Kotniski's good work in just one rationalisation of the MoS has been temporarily unravelled to make a point is highly regrettable. There is no substantive reason to fragment; just a political one. Tony (talk) 12:51, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
ah i see everything as it should be now. thankyou and apologisees for any inconveniance.  rdunnPLIB  15:04, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
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