Wikipedia talk:British Isles Terminology task force/BITERM guideline proposal draft 1 (sandbox working version)

Definitions

To assist in the discussion, here are the definitions of the most complex terms, copied from Matt Lewis' talk page where he says they were taken from the SOED, the 2nd largest version of the OED.

Great Britain England, Wales, and Scotland considered as a unit (see also BRITAIN); the name is also often used loosely to refer to the United Kingdom. Wales was politically incorporated with England in the 16th century, and the Act of Union formally united Scotland with England in 1707. In 1801, Great Britain was united with Ireland (from 1921, only Northern Ireland) as the United Kingdom. (See also UNITED KINGDOM.)

Britain /brt()n/ n.1 [OE Breoten, Breten, Bryten f. L Brittones (see BRITON); later forms f. OFr. Bretaigne (mod. -agne), f. L Brittan(n)ia f. Brit(t)anni, corresp. to Gk Bret(t)anoi, Pret(t)anoi.] More fully (esp. as a political term) Great Britain. As a geographical and political term: (the main island and smaller offshore islands making up) England, Scotland, and Wales, sometimes with the Isle of Man. Also (as a political term) the United Kingdom, Britain and its dependencies, (formerly) the British Empire.

Britain, after the OE period, was for long used only as a historical term, but in 1604 James I & VI was proclaimed 'King of Great Britain' and this name was adopted for the then United Kingdom at the Union in 1707. Britainer n. = BRITON n. L16-E19.[1]

British Isles a group of islands lying off the coast of NW Europe, from which they are separated by the North Sea and the English Channel. They include Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Hebrides, the Orkney Islands, the Shetland Islands, the Scilly Isles, and the Channel Islands.

We should respect these definitions in drafting a guideline. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also see Terminology of the British Isles --HighKing (talk) 17:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia articles may be informative, but they are not reputable sources. They may be used as cross references in the absence of anything else, or for ease, but they cannot contradict reputable external sources. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 08:00, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Common inclusion of the Channel Islands

Just as an example of how the Channel Islands are commonly understood as being part of the British Isles, have a look at this Google search. [[1]] This is in addition to them being included in the authoritative definitions. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 16:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure why you're highlighting this. It is commonly understood that most people accept that the Channel Islands are included when talking about the British Isles. I don't think you'll get any debate there. But equally there is a small factoid in that geologically, they are not part of the archipelago. Again, I don't think there's anyone debating this. Perhaps some editors may confuse a "geographic" area term with a "geological" area? --HighKing (talk) 17:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you are talking about the geological archipelago of Britain and Ireland then you are not talking about the British Isles, that's all. 79.155.154.185 (talk) 07:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many varied usages. Guideline needs to stick to one.

The BGS has been quoted as excluding the Channel Islands from the British Isles. Well, at least some of the time they also exclude the Republic of Ireland. See [[2]]. The ordnance survey is similarly confused, using British Isles and British Islands interchangeably and (as far as I can see) potentially wrongly in all cases. [[3]]79.155.154.185 (talk) 11:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it OK to use "British Isles" when dealing with historic articles?

Several articles make use of "British Isles" when referring to a historical period. For example, on the SE page, we've come across:

And others. The links above point to the discussion that have taken place. I don't believe that we should blindly use British Isles in articles solely because they are dealing with historic periods, unless references commonly use it (weight). Most times, the articles are either referring to the United Kingdom, or the United Kingdom and Ireland, and these are the correct terms in the encyclopedic precise way we should prefer our articles to be written. --HighKing (talk) 16:49, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]