Wikipedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive 9

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Adjustments to blocking policy?

I posted on ANI here in response to what I thought was excessive blocking on the part of Naconkantari (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). The majority of admins who commented on the issue endorsed the blocks, which says to me that actual blocking practice is not in line with blocking policy. One way or another, this needs to change. WP:BLOCK needs to reflect the actual rules we follow when blocking users. So what needs to happen here? And should this discussion occur on the village pump instead? TomTheHand 15:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it acceptable to block without warning? If so, under what circumstances? Is a single vandalism edit enough? Does it depend on the severity of that vandalism? What is a "severe" single vandalism edit? If a single vandalism edit isn't enough, how much vandalism needs to occur? If it isn't acceptable to block without warning, how much warning needs to be given? Should we require at least a single "final warning, block imminent" before blocking? How long of a block is acceptable for an unknown IP? How long is acceptable for a known educational institution? Should a registered user whose only contributions have been vandalism be blocked indefinitely? If so, should it be without warning? If so, how much vandalism should occur before blocking a registered user indefinitely without warning? Is a single vandalism edit from a new user enough to justify an indefinite block? TomTheHand 15:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

IMO we have to give admins a wide leeway, and expect them to use common sense. Trying to tie their hands in red tape and bureaucracy will be counter-productive. Admins have to primarily ensure a comfortable working environment for collaborative and productive editors. At the same time, they should not be too harsh on new users, who could potentially contribute in the future, and they must also beware of blocking innocent users via IP blocks. So the bottom line is that admins must have discretion and follow common sense. Crum375 15:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

My general view is that we can, and should, be tolerant, up to a point, when somebody is just "testing", which might mean things like adding the Wikipedia logo image, "hello", "test" or "YIPPPEEE!!" to articles. These things are done in good faith, and we will just have to accept that newbies, unfamiliar with what is and what is not appropriate, will do such things.

When it comes to clear and indisputable vandalism though, things like replacing articles with profanity, or adding images of genitalia in articles, we should be strict. Indeed, I would not object to having "one strike and you're out for 2 hours" be the standard treatment on such issues, even for a first time offense. I cannot imagine a person on the receiving end of such a block being particularily surprised at getting blocked over a thing like that. If the block is reasonably short, there is not much damage either. (This is the practice at the Norwegian Wikipedia, and it works pretty well.)

Also, sometimes there are tell-tale signs that an IPvandal is a returning vandal with a new IP. I remember from the days I was an admin, a vandal who did this, this and this before I caught him and gave him a pretty quick and harsh {{test4im}} warning. When he proceeded to replace that with a tier-1 {{test}} message, as if having a new IP entitled him to make four vandal edits, I blocked immediately. There is no need to have people here who think they have a right to vandalize. If they complain, we will just have to accept that we are iron fisted, poor excuses for admins.

One note is that I think it might be a good idea to deliberately keep the formal wording of the blocking policy a bit more conservative than what we actually do in practice. People in general, not just admins, have a tendency to bend the rules a little, so if we make the formal wording slightly over-conservative, I think we will get pretty much the treatment of vandals that we should. If we then bend the rules a little and a blocked vandal complains that he didn't get the "last warning" which the vandal is "entitled" to before getting blocked, well then let's just say that vandals don't have rights. And then bending the rules a bit to keep those who blatantly and indisputably seek to cause harm to Wikipedia off the site should be a tolerated practice, even if we don't boast about it. Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to clear and indisputable vandalism though, things like replacing articles with profanity, or adding images of genitalia in articles, we should be strict. Indeed, I would not object to having "one strike and you're out for 2 hours" be the standard treatment on such issues, even for a first time offense I fully agree with this statement. There is no reason to not immediately block someone that is intentionally damaging the encyclopedia. Naconkantari 16:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

By definition, any vandalism consists of intentional damage of WP, otherwise it wouldn't be vandalism. So the criterion for instant blocking has to be more carefully defined. Crum375 17:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

As I asked all those questions, I really should try to answer them myself. I believe that blocking without warning can be justified, in a case where the vandalism is blatant and overwhelming. If I saw an IP replace a dozen pages with profanity in as many minutes, I'd be willing to block that IP without warning to stop harm to the encyclopedia. However, I don't think that there is any single, isolated edit that can possibly be made by an anon vandal that justifies immediate block without warning, especially for 31 hours, as Naconkantari commonly does. I fully support the warning system. If someone makes a single, blatant act of vandalism, I have no problem with leaving a "this is your first and only warning" message and blocking upon further vandalism, but I would prefer at least two warnings, with one containing "final warning, block imminent" language. If you try to give out a full set of warnings you'll find that most vandalism stops when the vandal realizes "Wow, I'm being watched." I know, I know, it takes less time to just block the account, but I view that as biting.

As far as blocking of IPs known to be shared by many different people, such as those of libraries, any block longer than a few hours is blatant overkill. You're trying to stop someone who's in the library for an hour or less. Blocking for a day or more is harmful to legitimate users of the library. If you run into a kid who's coming into the library for an hour each day to vandalize, I can see applying longer blocks, but for an educational IP with sporadic vandalism over the course of many months, each individual burst of vandalism should be considered as a brand new individual, because it probably is. I also think that blocks of shared IPs should be "soft"; it should be possible for a user to create an account. We are an educational resource. We should not shut out educational institutions, even if they are the source of much vandalism.

I also think that indefinite blocking of a registered user whose only contributions have been vandalism hurts the encyclopedia more than it helps. It makes it far less likely that such people will turn around and make positive contributions to the encyclopedia. An immediate, indefinite block of a registered user that has made only one vandalism edit is definitely entirely too far.

I understand the need for admins to have discretion in these matters, but it's also necessary to have limits. TomTheHand 17:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think there needs to be some consistency, and some limits, but the tendency appears to be too lenient, if anything. Donorman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), a vandal-only account, was blocked for only two days after dozens of disruptive edits, including this and this. And it's unclear to me why it took three hours for Wikipedia to corral him. -- TedFrank 14:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the change that was just made about indefinitely blocking accounts that have not made productive edits. In the above example of Donorman, I might not have indefinitely blocked myself, but I would not object to such a block because of the volume of vandalism and because he had received many warnings. I'm not opposed to language allowing indefinite blocks for such users.

However, in my opinion, an account that has only made a small number of unproductive edits should not be blocked indefinitely without warning. There is a good chance that such an editor can become a positive contributor, as soon as they realize that Wikipedia is not a joke, and people see what you do and care about it. They need to be warned and given a chance. An indefinite block almost certainly loses that user forever.

I really don't think indefinite blocks without warning are acceptable except in cases of severe vandalism. I think it'd take a dozen vandalism edits to justify an indefinite block without warning. An account with fewer edits should be warned at least once, and if the vandalism continues then a block could be applied.

I can accept some negotiation on how much vandalism should justify a block without warning, but I think that an indefinite block without warning for one edit, as happened to Chyeahitsdiana in response to this, is way too severe. TomTheHand 20:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe that assuming good faith will go a long way in helping guide the kinds of decisions at hand here. If an attempt is made to lay down a strict set of criteria that say when an admin should apply what kind of preventative action we are subjecting ourselves to too much policy creep. I believe that for the most part the admins can be trusted to make level headed decisions and do what needs to be done to maintain the integrity of Wikipedia. That said, there is a valid concern about gray areas, and some valid examples are brought up. Perhaps there is the need to establish some minimal guidelines as far as these questions are concerned. I agree that applying an indefinite block, sans warning, based on someone's first edit is just a little on the harsh side. If an adjustment to the policy is going to be made then there needs to be consensus on what defines obvious and severe vandalism. Arkyan 21:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

While I do understand the arguments that it's important not to tie admins' hands with a restrictive blocking policy, I think we should have a statement that, though the recommended blocking justifications and durations are guidelines and should be applied on a case-by-case basis, admins should not consistently apply blocks outside of the guidelines. I believe such a statement would solve the problem of unnecessarily tying admins' hands while also forcing admins to obey this policy.

For example, currently the guidelines state that blocks should not be applied to isolated incidents of vandalism. If an admin runs into an isolated incident of vandalism that, in their judgement, is severe, they could apply a block, but an admin should not consistently block isolated incidents of vandalism.

Similarly, the guidelines state that logged-in users should be blocked for 24 hours for the first block and each successive block should be longer. An admin could decide that in a particular case, like that of Donorman, the vandalism is severe enough and enough warning has been given to justify a lengthy or indefinite block. However, an admin should not consistently block user accounts indefinitely for one or a handful of vandalism edits.

We don't need to objectively define "obvious" or "severe." We just need to say "Use your judgement, but on average, follow the guidelines." TomTheHand 21:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to expand a little on what I've just said. I think we should tailor the guidelines on this page to deal with your average, run-of-the-mill vandal, who blanks a page or two or inserts a couple of words of profanity. If you're doing RC patrol, and you run into an anon vandal who's making a dozen edits a minute, throw the guidelines out the window and block that IP on sight. However, nine time out of ten, you're dealing with people who put "hi" at the top of various pages, and in that case, you should be following the guideline to the letter.

If you're an admin who spends most of their time on CFD or something, and you only pull out the banhammer to deal with severe problems, you shouldn't feel bad that the majority of your blocks are more severe than the guideline. That guy who's put porn onto ten major pages so far probably shouldn't be given a full set of warnings before a block.

You shouldn't ever have to feel "Gosh, this vandalism is terrible, but my hands are tied by WP:BLOCK!" However, you should usually feel "Man, this vandalism is average. I am going to follow WP:BLOCK, because that's exactly what it's there for." TomTheHand 21:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

(mec)Policy and guidelines exist to further the building of an encyclopedia; we therefore, in (s)electing out admins, choose people with commonsense who will use the block function in a number of ways for a number of reasons to further that ultimate goal. "Use your judgement but on average follow guidelines" is exactly what the vast majority of admins do, Naconkantari in particular. Each block is open to appeal, to review by others admins and to community input. We encourage this, despite the fact that those questioning a block are rarely aware of the full facts.

We must allow admins leeway. (S)Electing people and then tying their hands because of process or a desire to slavishly follow rules is a ludicrous way of building an encyclopedia. And, no offence, presenting a big pile of admin actions and presenting a class action on them is neither fair nor useful. By all means challenge individual blocks - please! it keeps people on their toes - but a class action sucks lemons in the way it stacks things up against the user being questioned (30 seconds to compile, about 2 hours to reply to).

(added)By the way, your last paragraph is a vandals' charter - providing a set limit of "tolerable" vandalism is just holding Wikipedia to ransom. Do you know how many vandals appeal blocks because they haven't had the "right number" of warnings? They count them. They know. They are perfectly prepared to use our policies against us. Have you ever done Recent Changes and/or New Pages patrol? Spend a week on those jobs. You'll soon see that the majority of vandalism isn't as random as we'd like to think it is. 〈REDVEЯS〉 22:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Naconkantari absolutely does not follow guidelines on average. He has said himself that he blocks for isolated incidents of vandalism. He did so for 31 hours in the majority of cases until I confronted him, and has on average reduced this to 3 hours since then, which still violates policy. He consistently blocks user accounts indefinitely for making as few as one vandalism edit. To say that he on average follows guidelines is absurd; he openly admits to not following them. I absolutely agree that admins require leeway and have said so, but Naconkantari consistently blocks outside of the guidelines.

As far as presenting a big pile of admin actions goes, I did so because I did not know how else to communicate the problem. I did not cherry-pick what I felt were the worst, most indefensible blocks. Maybe I should have. Instead, I listed sixteen blocks that violated WP:BLOCK that were given out over one hour. That was the vast majority of the blocks Naconkantari gave out over that hour. When Naconkantari claimed that one block of a single-edit IP address for 31 hours was an exception and possibly too long, I had no trouble finding six blocks of single-edit IP addresses for 31 hours that he handed out in a half hour period the previous day.

I have said that admins need leeway. However, we also need limits. If you have a reason to block an IP address for 31 hours for a single edit, do so. However, if you RC patrol and block nearly every single isolated act of vandalism you see without warning for lengths of time greater than policy guidelines, you are breaking policy. To be clear about that, you are doing exactly what the vandals are doing. WP:BLOCK is just as important as WP:VAND. TomTheHand 22:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Please explain what our blocking policy is for if its purpose is not to set out the guidelines we should follow when blocking. TomTheHand 22:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay I think I can see the points you are making. To boil them down to how they are reading to an outsider:

• Process is good. We need more process.
• You don't like User:Naconkantari.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm so far missing any other point(s) you may have. Indeed, I've started reading your posts across a couple of forums in a negative light for which I apologise.

Can you dumb it down a shade for me? :o) Your point is being lost at the moment. 〈REDVEЯS〉 22:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

No no, you seem to have misunderstood me. My points were:

• • Blocking policy should give good guidelines for when and how to block.
  • Admins should follow policy.
  • I took the actions I did for reasons which I am willing to elaborate on when questioned.

Glad to help out, feel free to ask more questions if needed. TomTheHand 23:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The policy should provide general information and guidelines about blocking, which it does. But the actual implementation, as Redvers noted above, is up to the common sense and discretion of the admins, who were elected as trusted members of the community to ensure a comfortable and safe editing environment for productive editors. We want the admins to have maximum flexibility, and each of their actions is subject to review. Crum375 23:01, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, so how is providing guidelines that people don't follow, and have no reason to follow, productive? An appeals/review process for anons and new users who are blocked out of process exists, but it's not going to be used, because they don't know how. They're just going to leave forever. Are you saying that if nobody complains then it's ok? TomTheHand 23:26, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Each block is subject to scrutiny, by the blockee and others. Many blockees do complain, quite loudly in fact, to multiple parties in multiple channels, even about the most simple straightforward blocks. Adding more red tape will not make it easier for the admin. Some admins may decide to just ignore the situation and/or let someone else do it. I believe that discretion and flexibility are critically needed here. Crum375 23:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I have not, at any point, suggested more red tape. I have only said that admins should generally try to follow blocking policy, as right now it seems to be meaningless. I believe I explained my problem below: it is not with admins who apply blocks more harshly than guidelines if they feel it's needed, even when those blocks are harsher than I'd apply myself. It is with admins who apply blocks more harsh that the guidelines consistently, with no justification. I am not trying to force admins to follow guideline at WP:BLOCK all the time. I just think that admins should follow WP:BLOCK unless they have a reason not to. TomTheHand 00:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Let me give you a scenario. Say you notice a block. It is longer than the guidelines here suggest, and/or it was given for less reason. You contact the admin who placed the block, and say "This block doesn't follow the guidelines over at WP:BLOCK, and I was wondering why."

Now, certainly if the admin says "Oh, that was a sockpuppet I was dealing with," you're going to say "Oh! Good work there."

What if the admin says "Oh, that's just what I do." What then?

This is a serious question, because it's exactly what I've run into and it's why I'm so frustrated. I am not suggesting that an admin must have an ironclad, defensible reason for every block that deviates from the guidelines. I'm asking what to do if an admin has no reason at all to deviate from them, but does so constantly. TomTheHand 23:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You can always decide, and it often happens, that the original blocking admin was too harsh, and unblock. Or you may decide to mentor the offender and assume responsibility. Most admins would gladly accept someone else's input and would rarely object. If they do, there is always AN/I, for the longer blocks anyway. Crum375 23:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

That really looks like a path straight to wheel war land. Let's put an extension on the scenario. Say the admin in question applies blocks that exceed guidelines 10-20 times per hour, and has stated that they have no reason for the deviation. What do you do then? I'm pretty sure unblocking everybody would be a Bad Thing. I discussed the issue with the admin here, and posted to ANI here, noting sixteen times in one hour when blocking guidelines were exceeded. The majority of admins endorsed the blocks, which brought me here, trying to figure out what the heck is going on. Is WP:BLOCK broken? Is ANI?

Is the problem with me? Am I seriously wrong in thinking that admins should follow blocking policy unless there's a reason not to? TomTheHand 00:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Would I be taken more seriously if I went out and found other blocks that are much harsher than guidelines for no reason? I realize that this is coming off as just an attack on Naconkantari, but I had never encountered Naconkantari before running into one of his blocks. When I was looking at Special:Ipblocklist I saw many blocks that were harsher than guidelines. If I talk to the admins involved, and if they tell me that they did not have any particular reason for the harsh blocks, would it help? TomTheHand 00:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Speaking generally to the blocking system rather than speficically to any one admin or block or anything else; the system in general works as well as it can. If it is an imperfect system, it is only because it is an imperfect world. As someone who considers himself a fairly active vandal hunter, I have never considered it my job to ensure that a certain result is gotten against a vandal. I have always felt that my job it to make the admins aware of the problem, and let them deal with the problem as they see fit. In a few cases, I may have felt that the admin who dealt with the problem misunderstood the nature of the problem; and I will go to an admins talk page when I feel this has happend. But, I have never felt that I was seeking a certain result from a listing at AIV or ANI. I generally trust admins to use good judgement, and to dicker about whether a 2 hour block or a 6 hour block or a 24 hour block is appropriate in a certain case is moot. It is not my intention to get admins to do my bidding, or to punish bad users, or anything else like that. It is to make admins aware of a problem that may need addressing. Thats it. I could care less how much of the blocking policy is written, how slavishly the admins follow it, or even if they fix my problem at all. I trust them to fix the problem in a reasonable way, and they always do. Might I consider some of their blocks too harsh? I might. Might I consider that they don't block an IP I would have? I might. However, my opinion is largely irrelevant and I realize that. My time is better spent improving articles and preventing damage to other articles, not hunting down a specific vandal and seeing to it that they are punished, or railing against a specific admin who doesn't enforce the blocking policy as I would. I'd much rather work with the admins to make wikipedia better rather than set up an adversarial role against them... In conclusion, no, the system is not broken. Yes, it works fine as is. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 04:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I can see that from your perspective the system works fine as it is, because when you report vandalism, someone stops it. However, overly harsh blocks chase away new users, and you will never hear them complain. The complaints you do hear are from repeat vandals who have learned enough to try to game the system. The people who are actually hurt by harsh blocks are voiceless; they are chased away from Wikipedia forever before they can learn to contribute.

The guidelines exist to strike a balance between protecting Wikipedia from vandalism and remaining accessible to new users. I can agree that we may need to tweak the guidelines to figure out exactly where that balance is, but I'm really shocked that so many people seem to feel that there's no need for admins to follow guidelines at all. I sort of doubt that if someone went up for RFA right now, and their answer to "What sysop chores do you anticipate helping with?" was "I will block users who make unproductive edits immediately, on sight, without warning, temporarily for IPs and permanently for registered users," their request would be all that successful.

Part of your post seems to be from a "Calm down, Tom, and leave the admins to their business" perspective, so I'd like to point out that I am an admin, and how we operate is my business. Frankly, it's yours as well. TomTheHand 05:22, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not an admin, but I am an experienced editor, and I do care to see that admins execute their job fairly and equitibly. I can only say that based on my experience, they do. If there is a systemic problem, then it would show up all the time. The fact that you constantly cite a single admin in your criticisms would seem to indicate to me that it is a problem with one admin, and as such should be redressed on a personal level. To propose wholesale changes to a system merely to correct the behavior of a rogue seems excessive and unneccesary. I agree, scareing of a potential good editor should be avoided at all cost. However, I rarely see an admin acting in a way that I think will cause that to happen. Do some of the thousands of admins do that. I am certain they do. Should they be disuaded from doing so? They should. Are the vast majority of admins exercising their judgement in appropriate ways. Yes they are. Thus, we shouldn't change the system merely to stop the few problematic admins. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:59, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, what wholesale changes to the system have I suggested? I want to add a sentence or two to the policy, stating that the exact details of blocking are up to the discretion of the blocking admin, but admins should follow the guidelines unless they have a reason not to.

If there is consensus among admins that the blocking policy is too lenient, then maybe the block length guidelines should be adjusted, but I see no need to touch them.

I just think that the policy needs language that says "Yes, you need to follow these guidelines unless you have a reason not to," and then I think admins need to follow the guidelines. I am not suggesting a vast bureaucracy which records the reason admins give, and I am not suggesting we set up a special cabal to review every block and make sure the reasons are good enough. However, I'm saying that if you're blocking some run-of-the-mill blanking vandal, you should follow the guidelines, and if you block someone for a length outside the guidelines and someone asks you why, you should have a reason. Because you've been dealing with this same vandalism in this IP block all week? Sounds good. Because it's a sockpuppet of so-and-so? Keep up the good work. Because you have your own blocking policy? No, sorry.

Tomorrow I will take some time to find other cases of the guidelines being violated for no reason so that this stops looking like a problem with one admin. TomTheHand 06:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I was not actually able to find anyone else consistently applying blocks outside guidelines for no reason. TomTheHand 13:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

(reduce indent) without reading prior discussion, my opinion on the matter is this: if administrators across the wiki are found blocking with little or no warnings posted, then the relevant policies should be adapted. We are not here to restrain our administrator's block buttons with red tape - WP:IAR is paramount for an efficient system for dealing with vandals, and it allows administrators to use their own common sense - which is by far the play-safe option: a situation-by-situation decision, guided but not controlled by policy .. as oppose to blocks where they are inappropiate or vice versa. anthonycfc ^[talk] 05:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocks are not the appropriate response on a first offense; they're there to stop someone who's causing harm and continues to do so after weaker measures have been tried, such as a warning. I've given indef blocks to users who have not received the full range of warnings, because they make it clear that they know what they're doing and would vandalize after warnings, but those are exception and should not be codified as a rule. Policy is not there to reflect practice. We wouldn't change NPOV because people really felt like editorializing, and we shouldn't compromise the policies that embody the assumption of good faith just so some admins can feel justified in handing out excessive blocks. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, it certainly is acceptable to block without warning if it's clear the blockee is malicious, and yes, it's also acceptable to permablock vandal-only accounts, and we've been doing that for years now. >Radiant< 13:33, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I've got no problem accepting either of those, but is it acceptable to block without warning, or permablock an account, for one edit? If so, what kind of single edit, with no other history of vandalism, would you have to see in order to block it without warning, permanently if it's a registered user? Assume that you're not dealing with sockpuppetry here; if you're dealing with sockpuppetry, then it's not actually one isolated edit and you can certainly block the hell out of them. TomTheHand 13:47, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
    • I can top you on that by claiming it's acceptable to permablock (without warning) an account that has zero edits, as is commonly done for impersonator accounts or anyone with "on wheels" in their username. Note that sockpuppetry cannot generally be easily seen. Note also that permablocking a registered account is less bad than permablocking an IP (which we generally don't do anyway). Of course these are the exceptions rather than the rule. Three examples that come to mind would be (1) posting personal information on any user, regardless of whether or not it's true; (2) legal or physical threats; and (3) replacing any template with an image of genitalia. I'm sure there are others. >Radiant< 14:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
      • If it's an impersonator account or an account that otherwise violates user name policies it's a completely different matter. So let's say you don't suspect sockpuppetry. The above are three cases where you'd be willing to block without warning for one edit? I can accept those; they're quite severe. How about if someone replaces a page with random characters, or some nonsense like the word "hi"? Again, you don't suspect sockpuppetry, you don't suspect any connection to any prior vandalism, and the IP has never edited Wikipedia before. There are no special circumstances whatsoever. Is it acceptable to block without warning for that one edit? TomTheHand 14:38, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
        • No, I would not. But it seems to me you are trying to write a formal list of what is and is not acceptable; such a list is probably not possible and certainly not needed. >Radiant< 08:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary Section Break

Response to something up there^ (quote for reference) TomTheHand said: "I was not actually able to find anyone else consistently applying blocks outside guidelines for no reason.". Well??? So you found one admin who you feel misapplied the rules? Doesn't sound like there is a real problem then. What seems to be missed by most of this discussion is that policies are largely being followed except when unique circumstances present themselves. To ask a question like TomTheHand did: "Is it acceptable to block without warning for that one edit?" seems to be reaching for a definitive statement like "It is never OK..." or "It is OK..." The truth is, for normal garden-variety vandalism, this isn't OK, but we don't need to address it, because it isn't being done. There will be unique cases that require unique responses. Several people have already provided reasonable situations where a one-edit vandal (or even a no-edit vandal) can be blocked. However, to say something like "Other than these already itemized exceptions, we should never block someone for only one edit" and making that policy uneccessarily ties the hands of admins, since situations will inevitibly arise for which such a block will be justified, and for which no one now is even imagining. Avoiding instruction creep is about not creating rules to fix problems that don't exist. The existing block policy seems to be adequate. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 06:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This is in response to both Jayron32 and Radiant, as they've both brought up the same point. I am not trying to propose that we come up with an formal list of exceptions. I agree that that would tie the hands of the admins too much. I have no problem with the exceptions being in the mind of the admin and being entirely up to their discretion. I have a problem with if an admin has no reason, even in his or her own mind, for making the exception. There is no need for a codified list of rules, and such a thing would be harmful. However, an admin should be able to say why they applied a harsher block if someone happens to ask.

I'm not saying you should be able to ask me about a block I applied four months ago that I don't even remember, but if you ask me about a 31 hour block I applied to an IP yesterday which had replaced a page with "hi", I should be able to tell you why. I don't want a codified list of "good enough" reasons to apply a harsher block; if you don't think my reason is acceptable, you can use the appeals process already in place, but if I didn't have a reason, I think it's always unacceptable.

I want to explain how this started, because I admit that my original point is completely gone. I ran into an admin who consistently applied harsh blocks for no reason (I am not making an assumption here; I asked, and he said that that's simply how he deals with vandalism: any unproductive edit equals a block). I posted to ANI, and the consensus was largely "I don't see a problem with it."

My thoughts at that point were "If it's acceptable to apply harsher blocks than the guidelines state for no reason, we need to amend the blocking policy, because the blocking guidelines should tell you what blocks should be applied when there are no special circumstances involved." I came over here because I wanted to argue my side of the case, that the existing blocking guidelines are fine and strike a good balance between stopping vandalism and protecting newbies.

When I came over here, I found that nobody agrees with my entire premise: that the blocking policy should be followed unless the admin has a reason not to. I am not proposing instruction creep. I am not proposing that there be a list of acceptable reasons for harsh blocks. However, I do feel strongly that admins should follow blocking policy, and if they have to apply a harsher block, they should be able to explain why if asked, and if they didn't have a reason why, it's unacceptable. TomTheHand 13:00, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I for one completely agree with the idea that, where there are conventions about block reasons and lengths, and an admin chooses to depart from those, that admin should be able to explain why they are doing do. The policy currently hints towards that already, at least with reasons for blocking, with the text at the top of that section. --bainer (talk) 13:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Reply to TomTheHand: You say "I do feel strongly that admins should follow blocking policy, and if they have to apply a harsher block, they should be able to explain why if asked, and if they didn't have a reason why, it's unacceptable." And yet, with a single event notwithstanding, by your own admission, all admins always do this all the time, again, with a single exception. So what is the purpose of the whole discussion we are having. You propose no changes to the policy, you note that of the well over 1000 admins we have, a total of 1 is behaving in a way that runs counter to your idea of how blocking should work? From what I can see:

1. You propose a reasonable standard of behavior when admins block someone. Everyone agrees with you on this point.
2. With a total of n admins, n-1 admins already meet this standard of behavior.
3. What is the big deal?

--Jayron32|talk|contribs 20:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Until just now, with Thebainer's post and yours, nobody has agreed with me on that point. Everybody, so far, has misunderstood what I'm saying, which has made it difficult for me to go beyond that. TomTheHand 20:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

OK. So we have establish that you call for a standard of behavior, and we also accept that that standard is being followed by every single admin save one. What now do you propose? --Jayron32|talk|contribs 00:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly... I've got no clue any more. After the discussion at ANI, where the blocks were endorsed, I got the impression that this kind of blocking was common. I thought that meant either blocking policy needed to change to reflect blocking practice, or blocking practice needed to change to reflect blocking policy, but it seems that blocking practice is in line with policy and nothing actually needed to change here.

I still don't really understand why ANI endorsed the blocks, assuming that they do agree, in principle, that admins should follow guidelines unless they have a reason not to. I think there might be a strong tendency to give the benefit of the doubt to blocking admins. Naconkantari continues to block in excess of guidelines. However, the solution doesn't seem to be here, in making any change to blocking policy.

I do have some ideas for some things I'd like to see in the policy. I don't want to propose new rules or regulations or anything, but I feel like currently the page lacks information on "soft" blocks. I'd like to write a little more about what they are, their advantages, and their disadvantages, but I will not try to say "in this situation, give a soft block, and in that situation, give a hard one." Before anyone rips me a new one, please let me think about it and come up with a proposal; I'll post a new thread for it. TomTheHand 13:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)