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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Ian Rose (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 10:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Miles Dempsey

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Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

Miles Dempsey (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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After Harry Crerar comes Monty's other army commander: Miles Dempsey.* Dempsey is "a shadowy figure and a general almost completely unknown to the general public". I overhauled the article in 2021. A curious fact is that all four of the 21st Army Group's British corps commanders had commanded a corps before he had; but John Crocker and Brian Horrocks had been wounded, Richard O'Connor had been captured, and Neil Ritchie had been sacked after losing the Battle of Gazala.

  • Made a few small tweaks but seems pretty good. Re the above comment, I don't think Ritchie had directly commanded a corps before Dempsey - he was briefly a division commander, then a senior staff officer in the Middle East, then GOC Eighth Army. He was then demoted to division command, then promoted to corps command after Dempsey had reached that level.
  • I remember some comment to the effect that Monty treated Dempsey like a corps commander which might be worth including if it can be traced. It might be in Carlo d'Este "Decision in Normandy" or Nigel Hamilton's Monty biog, neither of which I've read in more than 30 years. My view is that their relationship in 1944-5 was a little like that of Grant and Meade (commander of the enormous Army of the Potomac) in 1864-5, but we can't really put that in the article.Paulturtle (talk) 04:26, 5 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pickersgill-Cunliffe support

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Have only gotten to the beginning of the Second World War section and will add more soon. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:51, 30 November 2022 (UTC) "two months before" two months before what?[reply]

That's my read-through done. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 23:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: A couple of unanswered points above (or in one case, just a tick?); can you confirm that you've finished with these? I'll have another look over then. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:58, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I thinks all points have been addressed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:17, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've made a few edits that are minor enough to hopefully be uncontroversial, and even if you disagree I'm happy to support this as is. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 19:10, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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Support - SC

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Interesting guy and nicely written up. A few very minor quibbles, mostly stylistic, but with some MOS bits in there too:

Between the wars
Second World War
  • "re-roled" doesn't appear in the OED (and "roled" only in connection with computer programming). "reassigned" works in British English and avoids jargon
    checkY "Re-assigned" would be incorrect though. It's in the Wiktionary, so
  • "Unlike a division, which had a set structure, a corps was ": had or has/was or is? Has used changed over time?
    checkY Yes. The corps is as before, but the 21st century division is not as set as in the First or Second World Wars. Since there are so few of them, they tend to have their own special TOE, although standard tables still exist. But the main reason was to keep the article grammar consistently in the past tense. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was a headquarters,[50] because": the comma doesn't work there – it acts as a stumbling block
    checkY Re-worded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eighth Army's part": the Eighth Army's part sounds more natural to my ear (much like "The 50th Division" in the next sentence)
    checkY Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "chef of staff": cook to the stars?
    checkY Always cooking up something. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "armoured self propelled guns": self-propelled?
    checkY Hyphenated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "openly questioned to Montgomery": this doesn't work grammatically
    checkY Deleted "to" Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'pains to deflate it."': not a full sentence, so per WP:LQ it should be 'pains to deflate it".'
    checkY Checked the source. Brooke ends with an exclamation mark. So went with that. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:06, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reputation

That's it – an engaging read on an interesting man. - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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Comments

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Comments from Harry

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Hey Hawkeye, I did promise I'd review this so sorry I'm late!

  • Dempsey was educated at Shrewsbury School, entering there in 1911, where he captained the first eleven cricket team in the 1914 season when they did not lose a match. Bit of a run-on sentence.
    checkY Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was also a school and house monitor, and played in the second eleven football team. He also attended Officers' Training Corps three consecutive sentences starting "he also" or "he was also".
    checkY Deleted them both. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The battalion, although successful, suffered heavy casualties, including eight officers, and was relieved in the line and saw little further fighting that year another run-on sentence.
    checkY Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Acting (rank) is possibly overlinking and it's not obvious that it's not one link an article called "acting captain".
    checkY Added some words to separate them. I'm not sure that "acting" is understood generally. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dempsey, along with 10 officers 10 *other* officers?
    checkY Yes. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In September it was sent to Iraq and Dempsey with it? It's not clear from the text.
    checkY Made this clearer. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can we say briefly what his duties were in Iran?
    Need to consult some sources. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Between 1926 and 1932, he also played Minor Counties Championship cricket for Berkshire.[29] He also played football and hockey. He also, he also.
    checkY Deleted first "also". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In October 1938 Dempsey's battalion moved to Blackdown Army Camp The subsection is titled "Belgium and France" but Blackdown is in Surrey; maybe specify that?
    checkY Moved the sentence into the previous paragraph. (Why would they base a Berkshire unit is Surrey?) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • who had been one of Dempsey's instructors at the Staff College in the 1930s Is this really relevant? I'd rather know why he was replacing Willcox.
    checkY It becomes a motif of Dempsey's career: he gradually overtakes more senior officers. (Willcox had been promoted Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The brigade formed part of Major-General Harold Franklyn's 5th Division, although the division was still not fully formed and so the brigade was sent to France as an independent formation two months before, and had spent most of its time on guard duties in the BEF's rear areas. Run-on sentence.
    checkY Split sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • the Supreme Allied Commander, General Dwight D. Eisenhower sea of blue and the American rank is not so different from the British as to require a link
    checkY Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Sicily and Italy, Montgomery's faith in Dempsey had proved justified If this is from the source, it needs attributing; in Wikipedia's voice it's editorialising
    checkY It is, but deleted to avoid sounding like editorialising. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This prompted Montgomery, when he left Italy at the end of 1943 to take command of the 21st Army Group for the forthcoming D-Day landings, to select Dempsey to command the Second Army, the main British force involved (although it also included Canadian Army units). Bit of a complicated sentence.
    checkY Trimmed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lieutenant General Omar Bradley's U.S. First Army same as Ike above; suggest unlinking LtGen
    checkY Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • But there was no denying that Goodwood had been oversold. Editorialising unless it's attributed to a source.
    It is in the source. Should I use a quotation? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    If the source says "there was no denying that Goodwood had been oversold", then you can say "According to Reliable Source...<ref>Source, Reliable (2023)</ref>" because "no denying" is editorialising and doesn't belong in Wikipedia's voice. But "Dempsey oversold Goodwood" would be simpler. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have revised this paragraph. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:50, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • This meant that three of the four British corps commanders in the 21st Army Group had commanded a corps before Dempsey had, but Horrocks (XXX Corps) and John Crocker (I Corps) had been wounded, O'Connor (VIII Corps) had been a prisoner of war; the fourth, Ritchie (XII Corps), had been commander of Eighth Army before being demoted after losing the Battle of Gazala in June 1942. Not sure how this is relevant to Dempsey.
    This is one of Dempsey's claims to fame; he was an army commander with four corps commanders who had commanded a corps before he had. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:13, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Harry, how's this looking now? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:24, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delay. There's nothing important outstanding so support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:38, 3 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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