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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Harry Crerar

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

Harry Crerar (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Continuing the series on the senior commanders of the 21st Army Group. Here is Canada's Harry Crerar Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA

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That's anything from me. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:20, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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  • " "Story: Biography courtesy R.M.C. And links to his two brothers | Lives of the First World War"." - incomplete citation, formatting needs work
  • ""Alastair John Crerar"." - unconvinced that this is RS and doesn't seem to mention part of what it's citing (the wounding)?

Beyond those two, which are a recent addition by a third party, I don't have much concerns over the sourcing. I spot-checked part of the citation to Granatstein 2020 and didn't issues. Hog Farm Talk 02:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

checkY Deleted both. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:36, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Harrias

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Reviewed to end of Corps commander, more to follow. Harrias (he/him) • talk 21:00, 19 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Much of the first two paragraphs of Service in Italy seems more detailed than it needs to be in a biography of Crerar. It focusse more on the Canadian forces in Italy in general, and Simonds in particular, rather than Crerar. I think it could be shortened quite significantly.
    The first paragraph explains his transfer to Italy; the second does talk about Simonds, but it focuses on the relationship between Simonds and Crerar, which is important later on. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mann was appointed the its chief of staff.." Remove a word.
    checkY Removed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In fact, this whole list of people: "Mann was appointed the its chief of staff on 28 January 1944; Brigadier Alfred Ernest Walford was the Deputy Adjutant and Quartermaster General (DA&QMG), the chief administrative officer; and Colonel George Edwin (Ted) Beament, like Simonds a Kingston graduate who had served with Crerar in B Battery, was the colonel (general staff). Lieutenant-Colonel Peter Wright was GSO1 (Intelligence) and Lieutenant-Colonel C. Archibald the GSO1 (Operations). Brigadier A. T. MacLean was chief engineer, but was replaced by Brigadier Geoffrey Walsh in September." Is it really needed in a biography of Crerar?
    These people all appear later on and ultimately they form his pall bearers. Says a bit about the make-up of First Canadian Army, and the way Crerar chose his staff. I decided to introduce them all together at this point rather than individually later on. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was disappointing, .." We need to say to who, otherwise it sounds like Wikipedia is expressing an opinion.
    checkY Crerar. Rewritten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "..of the Great War." Change to either First World War or World War I.
    checkY Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Crerar's finest hour" Attribute this quote inline.
    checkY Attributed inline. Another editor liked adding quotes from Granatstein but I removed several. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "..to be accorded this honour.[138] and was an.." Full-stop should be a comma, unless you want to split the sentences.
    checkY Changed full stop to comma. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 18:59, 26 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. A really interesting piece, as I've come to expect. I've quibbled about the level of details in a couple of places, but you generally get the balance right between giving enough context to understand his life with enough focus on him as a subject. Good work. Harrias (he/him) • talk 08:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Georgejdorner

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Early years

No need to note Lillian's wedding to Adam Beck in para 1. Beck can be linked in para 3, when he is noted as a brother-in-law. Lillian is non-notable.

Was Marion Verschoyle Cronyn related to Lt. V. P. Cronyn, a pilot involved in the death of Werner Voss? (This is a curiosity question. It has no bearing on the review.)

Lieutenant Verschoyle Phillip Cronyn and Marion Verschoyle Cronyn were first cousins. He was the son of Hume Cronyn (politician) and she was the daughter of Benjamin Barton Cronyn. Both were therefore grandchildren of Verschoyle Cronyn (1833-1920). Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:46, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First World War

Para 1: Are the battery manning levels actual bodies in ranks, or just theoretical?

Tables of Organisation and Equipment. Would have been close to right in 1914. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How about a comment about ranks being filled to manning levels, and then giving the manning levels?Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 2: I doubt that anyone refers to 110mm howitzers and 8.2kg guns. Do these conversions make sense?

None whatsover. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then why include meaningless conversions? Indeed, why not name the guns, as in [dreadnought 110mm gun], or whatever?Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Because it came up once before, with people demanding meaningless conversions. I've removed them, and we'll see how it goes. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:30, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if they do it this time, I'll tell them they are full of prunes.Georgejdorner (talk) 22:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 3: Reporting his bride by nickname is reminiscent of his adopting a pet. Here's where Lillian's name should be used.

In any formal situation, she would have been Mrs Harry Crerar. Otherwise, she was always called Verse. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If Ms Crerar is best known as Verse, in the sense Wop May is not denoted by his formal name, then I can see using her nickname. However, to keep from seeming misogynistic, there should be some explanatory phrase such as, '...best known as..."
Sure. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:31, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 4: Shouldn't Mentions in Despatches be listed in the info box?

Yes. Added.Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Corps Commander

Last para: Dieppe casualties total 5,313 for 5,000 Canadians involved. Even if every Canadian became a casualty, the numbers do not match. Para 7: Shouldn't his brothers be mentioned in the info box?

Only if they were notable (ie have their own articles)
Fair enough.Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
On second thought, should the brother-in-law be listed?Georgejdorner (talk) 00:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
checkY Listed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Between the Wars

Last para: Again, I question the use of the nickname Verse for Lillian.

I have re-checked the sources, and they all use this name. It seems that she was always known as Verse. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:18, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
See above,Georgejdorner (talk) 02:53, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think it reasonable to posit that if the form of her name is the same as it would be if she was notable enough for her own article, it's OK.Georgejdorner (talk) 00:53, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Canadian Military HQs, etc. Para 2: The significance of the Statute of Westminster and Visiting Forces Act is not clear.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:06, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

checkY Added some more explanation. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That clarifies matters nicely.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Para 4: Second sentence so convoluted I do not understand it. How about a rewrite? Maybe into two or three sentences?Georgejdorner (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

checkY Rewritten. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:24, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Last para: Why was the Battle of Hong Kong disastrous?Georgejdorner (talk) 01:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is explained. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Need a break.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:19, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have read and reread the remainder of the article. Amazingly, I can find no additional faults. Probably because I was the latest reviewer.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:15, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall: The only unresolved item is the actual casualties suffered at Dieppe.Georgejdorner (talk) 01:29, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

checkY I've double-checked the figures and they are correct. I think the confusion may result from double-counting; accordingly, I resisted the urge to simplify, and expanded this bit, although it's drifting off-topic a bit, because others may be puzzled. Added a more comprehensive source while I was at it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:42, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You might sharpen up that these casualty categories overlap, resulting in unintended overcounts. The new figures are appreciated.Georgejdorner (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image check: pass

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Overall, I think this is well and appropriately illustrated. Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:31, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Passing for image check. Zawed (talk) 08:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.