Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/German torpedo boat Albatros

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by TomStar81 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 04:20, 11 January 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

German torpedo boat Albatros

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): L293D (talk) and Sturmvogel_66 (talk)

The fourth of six Type 23 torpedo boats, laid down in 1925 an launched in 1927. Albatros participated in the Spanish Civil War and WW2, fired the first shot of the Norwegian Campaign, and ran aground while attempting to avoid Norwegian costal artillery. I created this article in April, passed GA a couple days ago, and a DYK about it should get on the Main Page soon. Many thanks to Sturmvogel 66 who wrote a good part of the article, and Vami IV for the GA review. I am hoping to get it to pass FAC one day (and win the four award). L293D (☎ • ✎) 16:11, 8 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Indy Beetle

Seeing as Action in the Oslofjord and Battle of Horten Harbour were among my first articles, I think I'll take a stab at this one:

Instead of "Norwegian Campaign", seems better to say Operation Weserübung.
- I disagree, I think that Operation Weserübung is the more obscure name and wouldn't be familiar to most readers.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:18, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - But it is the name of the German invasion operation that this German torpedo boat was participating in. Besides, there's always the wikilink. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:53, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Yes, but it's best to give a reader a general idea of what's what; they can click on the link if they want more information. That's why I give the ship type the first time I mention it so that readers don't have to click on the link to get basic information. Operation Weserübung is meaningless to the average reader without clicking through. If you like, you can put the operation name in parentheses.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:40, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      - I've reconsidered since she only participated in the opening days of the campaign and linking the whole campaign is too general when we have a more specific link available.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:58, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems important to mention that Pol III rammed Albatros.
- Added. L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Vincent O'Hara (The German Fleet at War, 1939-1945 pp. 26–28) has the timing surrounding the action in Horten somewhat different. He also suggests that the main reason the Albatros retreated from the harbour is that its forward battery "malfunctioned" after eight rounds.
- Haarr doesn't say anything about that.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:40, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - It doesn't appear incompatible with what Haarr gives. At the very least a footnote should be added explaining the jam.
    - Done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:44, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What happened to the ship after it wrecked? According to OÕHara it was a "total loss".
- Added. L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

-Indy beetle (talk) 21:15, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Source review

All the sources are books from professional, reputable publishing companies.
I can vouch that the information from Haarr is represented accurately in this article.
The last three citations all include relatively large page ranges from Haarr. Why not break up the citations to the info they support throughout the paragraphs?
- Done. L293D (☎ • ✎) 02:02, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - And reversed. The last para has five different pages, that's all. And the other paragraphs aren't much different.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:40, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - Five is relatively large, especially when the pages aren't sequential.

-Indy beetle (talk) 01:00, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Sturmvogel 66: My concerns about the citations are outstanding. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:55, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:36, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Let's say I want to verify the statement The crew was rescued by the auxiliary V707 Arthur Dunker and was later assigned to Olav Tryggvason after the Norwegian surrender.. So I check the citation for the paragraph, and it reads Haarr 2009, pp. 153, 155, 163, 380, fn. 11, p. 458. Where am I supposed to look? Or if I want to verify While passing Skagen, Denmark, on 8 April the British submarine HMS Triton unsuccessfully attacked the cruisers of the group with torpedoes. The citation says Haarr 2009, pp. 83–84, 119–123, 129. It's very unclear from where the information is derived in the text. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:12, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's just as clear as your preferred method; it just takes a little longer to thumb through 5 whole pages rather than 2.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I remain unconvinced. I'm not sure why L293D's action to my comment had to be reverted in the first place, either. I'll let the coords settle this one. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:10, 29 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Nikkimaria

Image review

Suggest elaborating on the map caption
- Done.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
File:Damaged_Pol_III.jpg: per the tag, please provide more details on the provenance of the photo, particularly when/where it was first published. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:41, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Probably not published as it's from the Norwegian Armed Forces Musuems website and is not attributed. Possibly taken by an official photographer.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:20, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - That would likely pose a problem per Wikipedia:Non-U.S._copyrights#Unpublished_works. Do we know the date it was first published on the museum site? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:42, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    - No, probably not before 2000 or so, which doesn't help. But as an anonymous work, it was out of copyright in Denmark before 1996 and therefore doesn't fall under the URAA, right?
      - Denmark - Norway? I uploaded the photo to Commons two or so years ago, I didn't find any additional info about it. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:12, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        My understanding, per the Cornell chart, is that unpublished anonymous works don't become PD in the US until 120 years after creation, regardless of country of creation. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:38, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        Jesus, that's five-odd generations! It's gone.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:24, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Nikkimaria: now that the issues are sorted, would you like to support? L293D (☎ • ✎) 12:43, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kges1901

Lead and infobox

In the lead, and then ran aground and was wrecked while maneuvering in an attempt to avoid Norwegian coastal artillery. should be rephrased to avoid repetition of 'and'
Infobox says 32–34 knots max speed but body says 33 knots
Infobox has 1927 as completion year, presumed typo

Construction and career

First para of construction and career is uncited at the end
- Fixed
Link Falke, Greif, Möwe, Wilhelmshaven at first mention
In 1931, the Commander of the Reconnaissance Forces (B.d.A), Konteradmiral Conrad Albrecht, took part with his flagship Königsberg, and the 4th Torpedo Boat Half-Flotilla in the celebrations of the 10th anniversary of the Latvian Navy in Libau. extremely awkward phrasing, should be reworded to focus on the torpedo boats
Two consecutive sentences beginning with 'in' in the second paragraph of 'Construction and career'
On 1 October 1934, the 2nd Torpedo Boat Flotilla was commanded from Albatros and consisted of Möwe and the two Type 24 torpedo boats Jaguar and Leopard. This is my somewhat loose reading of the term flagship, but can this be rephrased to say that Albatros was the flagship of the flotilla that included the other boats? In addition, I note the minor inconsistency between Half-Flotilla and Flotilla.
From July 1936 to October 1937, Albatros carried out four patrols of neutral Spanish waters. Briefly explain here why they were there, some context may be necessary
and the heavy cruisers Deutschland and Admiral Scheer to the north Spanish coast and evacuated Germans and other refugees to France. heavy repetition of 'and', sentence seems like a run on
chartered by the Reich the Third Reich is not mentioned until this point, so a rephrase may be necessary
28 September to 29 November 1936 Unnecessary repetition of '1936'
During subsequent attacks later that day, several bombs fell near the ship and he steamed to join the cruiser in Ibiza. Is this a typo or are torpedo boats male?
Link Adolf Hitler
Last para of Spanish Civil War should be rephrased to make it more Albatros-centric. As it stands right now, it is more a recounting of the incident with Deutschland and the repercussions of the latter than part of the service history.
Now assigned to the 5th Torpedo Boat Flotilla Is there a specific date? There appears to be a gap between 1937 and 1939.
- The sources often don't specify when the boats were transferred between flotillas.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
North Sea mining operations clarify by adding German before North Sea, perhaps rephrase to 'participated in' instead of 'used'
captured four ships in the Kattegat - were these neutrals or Allied?
- Not specified--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Link Kondor
which sheered off presumed typo, awkward phrasing. Also clarify that 04:03 is on 9 April, presumably.
Later that morning, Kondor and Albatros were ordered to land their troops at Son and then, reinforced by R21, she was ordered to secure the submarine base at Teie. The following morning, Kondor and Albatros were engaged by coastal batteries on the island of Bolærne and forced to turn away. Later that day This becomes repetitive and hard to keep track of exact dates, suggest rephrasing.
later took over Olav Tryggvason which was initially renamed Albatros II and then became Brummer - Explain the Norwegian surrender that led to the acquisition of Olav Tryggvason since the Alabatros crew, as I understand it, was only transferred to her. The current phrasing makes it sound like they boarded/attacked Olav Tryggvason
That's me done. A surprisingly long read. Kges1901 (talk) 00:24, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- See how everything reads now. Thanks for your thorough review.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for addressing the comments. Support Kges1901 (talk) 00:06, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by PM

This article is in great shape. A few comments from me:

where were the TTs mounted?
- Added.
the conversions of the original TTs don't match between the body and infobox
- Fixed. - L293D
what does C/30 mean?
- C/30 means it was the first variant of the 2 cm Flak 30/38/Flakvierling AA gun. - L293D
suggest "of the Swedish Crown Prince Gustav Adolf ~~with~~to the German princess Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha"
- Nice idea, done. - L293D
link Seeadler and state what type of ship she was
- Done. - L203D
do we know anything about what she did between returning to Germany in 1937 and the start of the war?
- Nothing's in the sources
any losses in the grounding?
- None given.
she wasn't salvaged?
- No. - L293D

That's me done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:49, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. See if our changes are satisfactory.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. Supporting. Nice job on this. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:11, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - the article appears to be in pretty good shape by this point. The only minor suggestions I'd make would be to check with the Graphics Lab and see if anyone wants to convert the ONI drawing into an SVG file, and to nuke the two external links per WP:ELNO#1. Parsecboy (talk) 19:41, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.