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Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/German destroyer Z51

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Peacemaker67 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 23:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Nominator(s): Iazyges (talk)

German destroyer Z51 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it is a good article, and part of a series I'm working on. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:14, 28 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by AustralianRupert

[edit]

Support Comments: Not a full review at this stage, just a couple of queries: AustralianRupert (talk) 08:12, 22 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing review: AustralianRupert (talk) 10:17, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • still not sure I agree with using a class infobox here, instead of a normal ship one, but anyway I will wait to see what others think
  • in the infobox, "50 Mines" --> "50 mines"
  •  Done
  • "concepts made by the Kriegsmarine" --> "concepts produced by the Kriegsmarine"?
  •  Done
  • "concepts made by the Kriegsmarine, as it was the first concept": suggest replacing second "concept" with "design" to reduce repetition
  •  Done
  • "would fall across" --> "fell across"
  •  Done
  • given that there are only four different citations, there doesn't seem much sense in putting them into four different columns as they currently are
  •  Done
    @AustralianRupert: I believe I have addressed everything. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:09, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing review: AustralianRupert (talk) 01:48, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The Motor Ship": is this a magazine or a journal, as opposed to a book? If so, I suggest either creating a "Magazines" or "Journals" subheader, or changing the "Books" subheader to something more generic, e.g. "Bibliography"
@AustralianRupert: I, though not the nominator, changed this to "Works cited". -Indy beetle (talk) 05:46, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • is there a location of publication for "Koop & Schmolke"?
Added. -Indy beetle (talk)
  • "were never installed due to the war" --> "due to the war" seems a bit awkward. Can this be reworded potentially? What about the war prevented them being installed, i.e. was it maybe the diversion of resources away from the surface fleet, or something like that?
Seeing as I added that info, I'll just say that that was the wording of the source and I wasn't sure how to adapt it without being untrue to the language.
And for the record, seeing as I've involved myself in the improvement of the article and have at the same time given it my support, I offer to recuse myself from formal reviewing (i.e. nullify my support) if the other reviewers deem it the appropriate course of action.-Indy beetle (talk)
G'day, Indy, I don't think that is necessary. It is acceptable for reviewers to help out like this. Thanks for your efforts. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:17, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Hchc2009

[edit]
  • I felt that the article needed a little bit more polish before A-class.
  • "German destroyer Z51 was the only ship of her class, the Type 1942 destroyer class, built for the Kriegsmarine." - felt reptitious. Could this just be: "The German destroyer Z51 was the only ship of the Kriegsmarine Type 1942 destroyer class."?
  •  Done
  • It feels underlinked - Bremen, for example, or U-Boat, could be usefully linked for the average reader. I'd link diesel propulsion rather than diesel engine, btw.
  •  Done
  • " likely also because diesel fuel was more easily obtainable for Nazi Germany." - as opposed to what other sort of fuel?
  •  Done
  • "Z51 was ordered from Deschimag on 25 November 1942" - worth explaining what Deschimag was (e.g. a company, a location, etc.)
  •  Done
  • Do we know why it took two years for the shipyard not to have completed her? Feels like a long time for the work to have been ongoing.
    German resources at the time went almost solely to submarines. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she was hit directly by either one or two bombs; one struck the vicinity of the bulkhead, between compartments X1 and X11, breaking off the fore-end just behind her No. 2 gun pivot. A later bomb hit her aft, fracturing the stern aft " - as written, this seems to be fairly clear that she was hit by two bombs, not one?
    It is saying that one or two did as mentioned, then another bomb hit, making a possible total of three.
  • "The Type 1942 destroyers were to be..." I'd have preferred this section to be focusing the description on this ship, rather than presented a description of the wider class (accepting that she is the only example). Like Rupert, I'm not certain that the class infobox is ideal here. Hchc2009 (talk) 12:12, 28 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    It is kept for usage in comparing what was changed to the original design. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hchc2009: Believe I have adressed all. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:47, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Hchc2009, can you clarify if you are happy with Iazyges' responses here? Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:03, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Parsecboy

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  • ...destroyer concepts made by the Kriegsmarine, as it was the first concept... "concept" twice in the same sentence is repetitive
  •  Done
  • ...likely also because diesel fuel was more easily obtainable... - this seems dubious. Does Whitley actually say that or are you assuming? Diesel is actually more refined than the fuel oil they were burning in other destroyers.
    Whitley says: Diesel power was chosen for its ability to confer longer endurances and also, probably, because diesel fuel was more readily obtainable. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:57, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The laid down ship was modified heavily from the original design, so as to make it ready for service as quickly as possible. - this makes no sense. Changes during construction slow down construction, they don't speed it up. Even the example given doesn't support this, despite the fact that removing 2 engines seemingly reduces work - but taking that much weight out screws with things like balance, how the ship handles under various conditions, top-heaviness etc., all of which must be dealt with unless you want to launch this.
    It is meant to convey that the ship was modified before much, if anything, was done. I personally have no idea why they made that call, given that the whole "Lets modify it before we even know" attitude was the reason they had atrocious issues with their navy. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 01:57, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Right, but that doesn't address my point - you don't bang out a design for a warship of this size in a week, and the kinds of changes made are not small details. Parsecboy (talk) 01:23, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Parsecboy: Looking again, the "changed heavily from original" seems to be meant to convey the first proposal. I.E. The one they laid down was different than the first proposal significantly. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 04:04, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • although heavily incomplete - "heavily" is not the right adjective here
  •  Done
  • the Deutsches Dampfschiffahrts Hansa referenced in the article is DDG Hansa.
  •  Done
  • The horsepower figure conversion should have the adj=on parameter added.
  •  Done
  • Inconsistent italicization of Kriegsmarine.
  •  Done
Just like to point out that Kriegsmarine, as a proper noun, despite being in a foreign language, should probably not be italicised. (see MOS:ITAL). -Indy beetle (talk) 03:16, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That has more to do with place names than proper names of things like organizations, which are routinely italicized. Parsecboy (talk) 01:25, 5 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry to do the "death by a million cuts" thing, but I have a couple of other comments:

Comments by Vami_IV

[edit]

Oppose, Demote to C-class

  • There are no supporting materials on this article, thus failing B-class criteria 5.
@Vami IV: "B5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams." This article has an infobox, thereby fulfilling B5. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:47, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article does not meet B-class criteria 2 for length.
B2 has no specified minimum for length. In fact, it only requires that the article "reasonably covers the topic", a statement which doesn't directly address length. -Indy beetle (talk)
  • The article relies on four citations in its entirety, and only three references.
That's not a violation of any standards, far as I can remember. Furthermore, demotion to C-class would first require a WP:Good article reassessment to strip the article of its GA status. -Indy beetle (talk)

X –Vami_IV✠ 15:37, 30 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Indy beetle

[edit]
My comments have been addressed, and new info has been added to the article, so I support its promotion to A class. -Indy beetle (talk) 05:34, 2 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.