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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Kges1901 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 00:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Buzz Aldrin

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Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk) and Kees08 (talk)

Buzz Aldrin (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Buzz Aldrin was a fighter pilot who down two MiG-15s in the Korean War. Later walked on the Moon. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:11, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I asked some millenials if they could name an astronaut. Neil and Buzz are remembered. They couldn't think of anyone else. John Glenn drew blank looks. Buzz may be more famous than Neil now, although Neil has a movie. Of course Jim Lovell and the Mercury Seven had movies too. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments: G'day, Hawkeye and Kees. Thanks for tackling this important topic. I have a few suggestions/comments: AustralianRupert (talk) 13:54, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Round star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame

Image licencing and sourcing looked ok to me, except a couple of minor points: AustralianRupert (talk) 03:43, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: Since the Apollo 11 photo is already used in the Apollo 11 article (appropriately), would you object to replacing it in this article with something like File:Neil (left) watches Buzz take a documentary photo of a sample.jpg? File:Buzz Aldrin (left) and Mike Collins on arrival at Patrick Air Force Base in a T-38.jpg is an option, but we have a few of him in jets already. Another option is File:Buzz (left) takes a handheld documentation photo while Neil appears to be using the tongs to collect a sample.jpg. I was hoping for an image of him training for Apollo, since it is outside of the Apollo 11 section. Thoughts? Kees08 (Talk) 01:49, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

 Done I prefer File:Neil (left) watches Buzz take a documentary photo of a sample.jpg. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:03, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I like it. I added subtitles for File:938-AAG-Trimmed.wav, they are not showing up yet, but I probably just have to be patient. What do you think of replacing File:Aldrin Performs EVA (9449354819).jpg with File:Astronaut_Edwin_E._Buzz_Aldrin_Jr.jpg. Similar rationale to the other change, we have one of him spacewalking already. Alternatively, we could keep the one in there currently and add this to the beginning of the NASA career section? We can of course keep as-is as well. I believe that is my last image suggestion. Kees08 (Talk) 20:36, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer the spacewalking one. I know we therefore have two, but it's an awesome image. I was intending to use File:Astronaut_Edwin_E._Buzz_Aldrin_Jr.jpg on NASA Astronaut Group 3. It is a good image, and would be in the infobox except for the one that's there from Apollo 11. NB: I chose File:Thunderbirds pilots pose for a photo with Buzz Aldrin.jpg over File:Buzz Aldrin poses for a photo before his flight with the United States Air Force Thunderbirds.jpg because was already have so many head-and-shoulders shots of him. (I used it on Aldrin cycler instead.) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:48, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I do not have strong opinions on it; seems like good enough rationale to me! Kees08 (Talk) 02:31, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz

Hi @Hawkeye7:, just saw this at dyk and was about to do some edits but then saw a review was underway so here are my notes...

These were only my editing notes so will look deeper for this review later. Regards, JennyOz (talk) 05:23, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@JennyOz: No rush, the comments above are addressed though if you want to give it another look. Kees08 (Talk) 20:52, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Kees08, I will post more soon. JennyOz (talk) 05:22, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@JennyOz: Any more comments? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:02, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi both, thanks for ping Hawkeye7. Yep, have been crawling through a ref spot check. Most are format problems and most in the Film and TV area. Here is what I've noted so far... JennyOz (talk) 09:37, 13 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, those all addressed. Just a few last questions...

  • caption thunderbirds 2nd sentence needs full stop (because first sentence has one)
    Done Kees08 (Talk)
  • caption photo of footprint - bootprint?
    Seems like NASA splits between footprint and bootprint pretty evenly, but bootprint is more exact so I changed it Kees08 (Talk)
  • I find confusion (ie so might some others and therefore try to 'correct' it) re the 2 different retirement dates. Infobox says retired July 1, 1971 (ie from NASA) though it gives rank of Col USAF (but he didn't retire as a colonel USAF til March 1972). Maybe at Post-NASA section "decided to return to the Air Force" could be reworded to include date "on July 1, 1971", ... then at "Aldrin was assigned as Commandant of the USAF Aerospace Research Pilot School at Edwards Air Force Base, California, on July 1, 1971" change to "on his return date" or similar.
    Retooled this Kees08 (Talk)
  • Between end of subsection Apollo 11 and Post-NASA - gap ie what did he do between September 16, 1969 and July 1, 1971? And should the sentence "During his NASA career, he had spent 289 hours and 53 minutes in space, of which 7 hours and 52 minutes was in EVA.[25]" (unless that time in space is related to his hope of being Commandant of Cadets at the United States Air Force Academy?) move up to tie up the end of whole section NASA career section ie end Apollo 11 subsection?
    Moved the sentence. Expanded to a paragraph about his 1969-71 service. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:39, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • $475,000 bank account etc - add what year those figures relate to?
    Looks like December 2012 dollars, when the divorce happened. Since this is implied, not sure I should do anything here. Kees08 (Talk)
    We could add an inflation template, but it wasn't that long ago. It is equivalent to $630,000 in 2023. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 10:39, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • his quote re Armstrong's passing needs more precise formatting per MOS:ELLIPSIS ie "deeply saddened by the passing. (needs ellipsis)I know I am joined by millions of others (needs ellipsis) in mourning the passing of a true American hero and the best pilot I ever knew.(needs ellipses) I had truly hoped that on July 20th, 2019, Neil, Mike and I would be standing together to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of our moon landing.... (fix ellipsis) Regrettably, this is not to be.(needs ellipsis?)"
    I selected different portions of the work and redid the ellipses. Kees08 (Talk)
  • first person to hold a religious ceremony on the Moon - the 'only' person? (though I understand ref/s might not say so. It's just that "first" suggests others followed)
    As far as I can tell he was the only one. Kees08 (Talk)
  • He doesn't have an Apollo 11 crew photo. Suggest eg one from Armstrong's article ie the NASA crew portrait (Ap11-s69-31740.jpg) and/or 40th anniversary with Obama (...DVIDS723610.jpg)
    Added the portrait photo Kees08 (Talk)
    Sorry Kees08, I meant a crew photo of the 3 of them together ie with Neil and Mike. JennyOz (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, gotcha. I have been trying to keep their individual portrait photos in their own articles, and then the crew portrait in the Apollo 11 article. I will have to go check if I have been successful at that... Kees08 (Talk) 17:09, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • one grandson ... three great-grandsons still same number of? needs as at date?
    Added as of date Kees08 (Talk)
  • Montchalir Local News - typo
    I fixed this last night Kees08 (Talk)
  • down two MiG-15 aircraft.[21][20] - ref order
    Fixed Kees08 (Talk)
  • have seen him coming.[22][20] - ref order
    Fixed Kees08 (Talk)
  • Base in West Germany.[22][16][25] - ref order
    Fixed Kees08 (Talk)
  • for a parachute to open.[23]{sfn|Aldrin|Abraham|2009|pp=91–93}} For - tweak opening brackets
    Fixed thanks Kees08 (Talk)
  • Earth. New York, Random House - colon before publisher per others?
    Fixed Kees08 (Talk)
  • on the Moon. National Geographic. - colon as above
    Fixed and added city Kees08 (Talk)
  • At 86 years of age, Aldrin's visit made him the oldest person to ever reach the South Pole. - "ever" redundant?
    Done Kees08 (Talk)
  • He had previously traveled to the North Pole in 1998 - "previously" redundant
    Done Kees08 (Talk)

That's all, thank you both. Let me know if I haven't explained myself well enough. JennyOz (talk) 09:55, 20 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both again. I've left a note above re the crew photo but leave that up to you. I am really grateful for you both dealing with each of my comments and am super pleased to add my support. Thanks champs! JennyOz (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@JennyOz: Thank you for the thorough review. I was trying to do a reference review in tandem with you, good to see we caught at least one of the same thing. I have a couple notes to myself re: ref improvements, but nothing major. Since I did the media section references and you noted they were especially bad, I thought I owed it to the article. Michael Collins and Apollo 15 are both up for review if you still have the itch to review more space articles. Kees08 (Talk) 19:39, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry

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  • commissioned in the United States Air Force Shouldn't that be commissioned into?
    @Hawkeye7: Did you address this? More in your wheelhouse, I have no idea if one is more appropriate than the other. Kees08 (Talk) 05:02, 18 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Me neither. I changed it anyway. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:08, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • His first space flight was Gemini 12 Suggest adding a year here
    Done Kees08 (Talk)
  • Interesting that his father was an army man but was keen for Buzz to go to Annapolis. Do the sources say anything more on this? What was his father's raction when Buzz told him he wanted to go to West Point? Interesting that he had no interest in being a naval aviator.
    He wanted to be an aviator, and the Army Air Corps had just separated off and become the U.S. Air Force. Not sure why he was so keen on urging him to go to the Naval Academy over the Air Force. Hawkeye, I am going to leave this for you, because I am a little confused on the timeline as it is written. Page 37 of No Dream is Too High has him in West Point, then travelling to Asia for his social science tour, then the Korean War started, then he talks about how his father had wanted him to join the Naval Academy, but "my friends and I wanted to be where the action was-and that was in the skies above Korea". My guess is he had chosen West Point and then got "lucky" on where the action was. Not sure if I articulated my confusion correctly, but it is written correctly as-is? Kees08 (Talk)
    Also, this book does not give his father's reaction. Perhaps Return to Earth does, Hawkeye can check when he reunites with his copy. Kees08 (Talk) 01:54, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Buzz says that his father was not the domineering person he was sometimes painted as; that his father fully supported his career choice, and even went along with him changing his name. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:14, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • When deciding what sort of aircraft he should fly, his father advised him to choose bombers was this because his father was a bomber pilot or just what he thought was the best career move?
    No Dream is Too High has nothing on this, hopefully another book does. Kees08 (Talk) 01:57, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It's in the very next sentence: because command of a bomber crew gave an opportunity to learn and hone leadership skills, which could open up better prospects for career advancement. Added the conjunction to make it clear. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:14, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...give thanks in his or her own way." You need a reference directly after a quote.
    Cited Kees08 (Talk)
  • I'm pretty sure "Post NASA" should be "Post-NASA" (with a hyphen)
    I think it would only be hyphenated if it is Post-NASA career, since you hyphenate the adjective describing another adjective (post describing NASA), and since in Post NASA, NASA is the noun, it would not be hyphenated. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and hyphenated it anyways, but is there any rationale for it? Kees08 (Talk)
  • decided to return to the Air Force. What was his rank at this point, and what happened to his air force ranks while he was with NASA?
    Added that he was a colonel at this point. But he was promoted to lieutenant colonel while at NASA in about 1964. Under a policy initiated by President Johnson, military personnel received an increase in rank after their first space flight, so he was promoted to full colonel in 1966. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:14, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was hospitalized for depression. This sentence seems quite jarring coming straight after the previous one.
  • In fact, that whole paragraph is confusing. It weaves between Aldrin's personal life and his struggle with depression and goings-on in the air force that Aldrin wasn't directly involved with, and gives us a choppy series of short, brusque sentences.
    It's all about things that he was involved in. I'll expand this next week. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:37, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hawkeye7: Would you be able to look at these points? I do not have Return to Earth. Kees08 (Talk) 01:36, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Kees08: I've re-worked this bit. Let me know what you think. I can expend the final paragraph if you think we need more about Buzz the drunk. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:31, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    @Hawkeye7: I think it reads great. We could use more information on the alcoholism, if you have time to provide it. Seemed that was a pretty prominent life event for him. Kees08 (Talk) 01:52, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I have expanded this into a paragraph. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:13, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • What was his rank on retirement? Promotion dates might be helpful if available, not necessarily for all promotions but certainly for those post-NASA.
    He retired as a colonel. Added this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:14, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the 72-year-old Aldrin punched Sibrel Is his age relevant? Also, do we need this level of detail on a minor incident?
    It is a very popular incident. A bit surprised it does not have its own article really. The age is relevant since Sibrel was relatively young comparatively. Kees08 (Talk)
    I didn't think that Sibrel deserves his own article, but since he does have one, it is linked. Someone reckoned that my description of Sibrel as "deranged" was non-NPOV. Go figure. Hawkeye7 (discuss)
    The reliable sources call Sibrel a "jerk". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:31, 14 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Detached adapter panel sighting Unless there's some long-term significance to these events that's not clear from the article, I suggest radically trimming this section; the article is >6,500 words and a long article is inevitable for someone with a long and distinguished career like this but it needs to stay focused.
    Trimmed this down quite a bit. Kees08 (Talk)
  • His proposed system of cycling spacecraft makes travel to Mars possible Should that be theoretically possible?
    It makes it more feasible from a financial standpoint, which is driven by propellant costs (simplifying this). I rephrased it to reflect this, if you want a better explanation in the review or in the article let me know. Kees08 (Talk)
  • Does the quote about the Phobos monolith really add anything to the article?
    No. Removed. I can guess why it was put there, but would rather not speculate. Kees08 (Talk)
  • I'd recommend cutting out the sub-headers in the "Mission to Mars advocacy" section as they give undue prominence to relatively minor aspects and they're not necessary to break up large blocks of text. I'd also recommend distilling the Mars stuff as far as possible and putting it all together, with the NYT op-ed in a separate paragraph.
    Removed the section headers but left the paragraphs separate, since they are describing separate ideas. I edit on a small monitor so they do not look ridiculous...maybe they do on a larger monitor. I can be persuaded to try to combine them still. Kees08 (Talk)

Besides a few quibbles, excellent work as always. And yes, besides Armstrong, Aldrin is the only astronaut I could name off the top of my head! It's great to see his article getting the love it deserves. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:03, 30 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye, one other question related to Mitchell's review: the article says he visited Japan in his last year, but on page 36 of No Dream is too High it says he visited it "A year before I graduated from West Point". To me, that would mean his second to last year...do you know which is correct? Kees08 (Talk) 01:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The Korean War broke out in June 1950; Aldrin graduated in June 1951. So it was a year before he graduated. Changed to "in 1950". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:22, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, excellent work. Kees08 (Talk) 05:35, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@JennyOz and HJ Mitchell: AFAIK, all issues raised have been addressed. We image and source reviews. Do we have your supports? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@HJ Mitchell: Hey there, checking in again. Did you have any more issues you would like us to address? Thanks! Kees08 (Talk) 02:43, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Kees08: Reading up on Scott Carpenter, I discovered that he was asked at one point who he'd like to travel to the Moon with. He said Gus Grissom and John Glenn. Why them? "Because I'd like to make it back again." When Neil Armstrong was asked to make the same decision for real, he chose Buzz Aldrin. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologie for the delay. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:00, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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