Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Bryan D. Brown
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
No consensus to promote at this time. Anotherclown (talk) 11:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I am nominating this article for A-Class review because it recently passed the GA process (in late December 2013) and I believe it meets the A-class criteria. Prior to going through the GA process it was copyedited by the GOCE and had a Peer Review conducted as well. Thank you for your time, — dainomite 05:53, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
- Comments
- A couple of missing citations Vietnam and 160th SOAR sections
- I believe I filled these in, If I'm still missing any would you kindly point them out?
- It should be fine now, though someone might complain that the sentence about his interest in aviation after Vietnam doesn't have a citation, though I'd argue that it's just a transition sentence to the next paragraph, where the claim is substantiated, so it shouldn't need a citation.
- I believe I filled these in, If I'm still missing any would you kindly point them out?
- Those sections are a bit thin also - any idea where in Vietnam he served, for instance?
- The only thing I can find thus far (which I actually just dug up) was he was a part of the 129th Assault Helicopter Company while a UH-1 pilot but his previous tour while a Green Beret just says he was a part of a 7th SFG "A Team". I wish I could find something that went into greater detail about his actions while on both combat tours.
- I'd wager the A Teams' missions are not widely discussed (and may still be classified for all we know), so there probably isn't much we can do there. Is there anything you could add on where the 129th was based? Presumably it was attached to a specific division and thus we could add what Corps area it was assigned to. Parsecboy (talk) 13:50, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
- The only thing I can find thus far (which I actually just dug up) was he was a part of the 129th Assault Helicopter Company while a UH-1 pilot but his previous tour while a Green Beret just says he was a part of a 7th SFG "A Team". I wish I could find something that went into greater detail about his actions while on both combat tours.
- I'm a bit confused about the connection between the ruck march and the reconnaissance flight in 1970 - generally, one does a ruck march in LPCs ;) It seems like a non-sequitur.
- I may have worded it poorly. Here's the quote from the reference (which is from Gen Brown) "I was in Dahlonega, Ga., at the Mountain Ranger Camp, carrying a rucksack and a radio, when a lieutenant asked me to go with him on a “Huey” [UH-1 helicopter] to do a reconnaissance of a potential LZ [landing zone]. I rode in the Huey and immediately was struck that this looked like something I would like to do, so I signed up for OCS and flight school." It makes sense to me having read the reference so I'm confused by whats confusing about it. :/
- It's clearer now - the missing link was that he took part in a helicopter reconnaissance during the ruck march - otherwise the two statements appeared to be unrelated.
- I may have worded it poorly. Here's the quote from the reference (which is from Gen Brown) "I was in Dahlonega, Ga., at the Mountain Ranger Camp, carrying a rucksack and a radio, when a lieutenant asked me to go with him on a “Huey” [UH-1 helicopter] to do a reconnaissance of a potential LZ [landing zone]. I rode in the Huey and immediately was struck that this looked like something I would like to do, so I signed up for OCS and flight school." It makes sense to me having read the reference so I'm confused by whats confusing about it. :/
- What unit was he assigned to as a field artillery officer?
- Thank you, expanded this and added a reference.
- UH-1 pilot in Vietnam - what unit?
- Thank you, expanded this and added a reference.
- Where was he assigned between earning his aviator badge in 1971 and the 158th in 1978? (I know, I'm starting to sound like a broken record ;) )
- Ah! I hadn't even noticed this. I wish the Army would make biographies like the USAF where they have a chronological list of assignments with respective dates. Unfortunately all I have been able to find is assignments without corresponding dates. However, I'm also not sure how to include said assignments without adding more context. It would simply state things like "he was Commander, 5/101st Aviation Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault);" without any supporting documentation for when. However, in a few of his interviews he states that much of his early history remains classified, again not giving any specific dates though.
- It is unfortunate that there aren't better references to draw on for biographies like this, even for seemingly major figures. It might have to suffice to say something like "After returning from Vietnam [in year X if you have one], Brown served in Unit A, Unit B, and as commander of Unit C" and so forth. Ideally you'd be able to track down rough dates (even years would be helpful) but if that information isn't there, it's just not there. That's the problem with writing a biography of someone who was heavily involved in special operations.
- Ah! I hadn't even noticed this. I wish the Army would make biographies like the USAF where they have a chronological list of assignments with respective dates. Unfortunately all I have been able to find is assignments without corresponding dates. However, I'm also not sure how to include said assignments without adding more context. It would simply state things like "he was Commander, 5/101st Aviation Battalion, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault);" without any supporting documentation for when. However, in a few of his interviews he states that much of his early history remains classified, again not giving any specific dates though.
- It's best to provide some context for things like Eagle Claw - the vast majority of readers won't know what it was, let alone why it failed (which is a central reason to why the 160th was created - which also isn't made clear - at this point, they're presented as two unrelated facts).
- I believe I did this adequately; although it sounds a bit awkward to me for some reason, I can't really put a finder on it. I tried to include relevant parts while not trying to add a plethora of extra information. I didn't want to just wantonly add "In 1980 the Iran hostage crisis happened. and then operation eagle claw happened and failed. and as a result Brown was put in charge of this" because I felt as if the reader would, for a few lines be like, "why does is this there? why is that there? Ohh... finally after reading a paragraphy i see" So I tried to word it with what ended up being probably the longest sentence I've ever written but it ties him into it.
- I'd wager you have a couple of sentences to lay the groundwork of a new topic before the reader will start to question why it's relevant. I took the liberty to rework the section a bit (and split it into its own section) - see if you like it, and if not, feel free to revert it.
- I believe I did this adequately; although it sounds a bit awkward to me for some reason, I can't really put a finder on it. I tried to include relevant parts while not trying to add a plethora of extra information. I didn't want to just wantonly add "In 1980 the Iran hostage crisis happened. and then operation eagle claw happened and failed. and as a result Brown was put in charge of this" because I felt as if the reader would, for a few lines be like, "why does is this there? why is that there? Ohh... finally after reading a paragraphy i see" So I tried to word it with what ended up being probably the longest sentence I've ever written but it ties him into it.
- Same for Credible Sport - a brief outline of the operation would be good, especially since Brown was the planner
- Done
- Is there any information about the plan? I'm guessing it's still classified, but was it supposed to follow the same basic outline of Eagle Claw?
- Done
- Explain why using NVGs while flying is a notable thing (I know why, but most readers will not)
- Hopefully I did an adequate job here.
- Check for duplicate links - there are a couple in the lead and one each in the Education and Other accolades sections.
- Hrmm, I believe I got most of them. If I missed any please point them out.
- Any further information on this citation? What makes it reliable, for instance.
- That reference was there prior to me editting the article and I've never touched it because the full bio costs almost 8 USD for access but it states "Bryan Doug Brown retired military officer, Born: 1948" I did add a link to the reference for the search results that show this however.
- A couple of missing citations Vietnam and 160th SOAR sections
Parsecboy (talk) 16:02, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, another point I suppose would be helpful. This is my first time (and only, thus far) taking an article to GA so if I don't quite understand something or a specific way of doing things please forgive me. I hope to get better at this. :3 Thank you for the direction given so far. I really appreciate it. — dainomite 06:49, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Comments: G'day and welcome to Milhist A-class review. Thanks for your efforts so far on this article. It looks quite good. I have the following suggestions: AustralianRupert (talk) 23:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
- I suggest adding specific mention of his date of birth in the Early life and military section; also if possible I suggest adding what school he went to;
- in the Early military career and Vietnam section, is it possible to add a sentence or two about what Brown did while deployed a Special Forces A Team? (Even if this was just a generic comment about the types of operations the SF A Teams undertook, it might fill the gap);
- this sentence appears to be missing something: "At the Army War College in 1992, a then-Lieutenant Colonel Brown co-wrote a military studies program with future United States Northern Command commander, Victor E. Renuart, Jr., a paper titled Combat Search and Rescue: A Search for Tomorrow". I think it needs the word "in" inserted before "a paper title..."
- are there any references for the list of decorations that could be added?
- "...it wasn't until 1990 when it would take on it's current name..." (it is best not to use contractions here, so I'd suggest changing "wasn't" to "was not"; additionally "it's" should be "its" in this sentence because it is possessive in this case, not a contraction of "it is")
- watch out for duplicate links (the general rule at A-class is link a term once in the lead and once in the body, although subsequent links may be used if the article is very long). I use a script to look for duplicate links. This script has identified the following as overlinked: UH-1, Operation Eagle Claw, Chad, Operation Desert Storm, and reconnaissance. AustralianRupert (talk) 23:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
- Oh shoot, I must've missed this somehow. I'll address said issues within a day or two. Sorry about that. Regards, — dainomite 17:56, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose for now. It looks like nothing that AR brought up has been fixed, and it's been a while. Happy to have another look after progress has been made. - Dank (push to talk) 10:47, 11 May 2014 (UTC) @Dainomite: we'll be thinking about closing this soon, so if you want to progress the ACR, could you have a crack at addressing the comments soon? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (send... over) 12:25, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.