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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Battle of Cane Hill

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Nominator(s): Hog Farm (talk)

Battle of Cane Hill (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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A bunch of ammo got burned off, but unexpectedly light casualties for a running fight of nine hours that took place over 12 or 15 miles of ground. A bunch of fighting in the woods in the Ozark Mountains, with the Confederates armed with junk cannons and shotguns - fairly standard Trans-Mississippi warfare. Hog Farm Talk 04:48, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Hawkeye7

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I don't normally even look at articles on the American Civil War, and this article is good example of why. It is a rollicking yarn though, well-researched and generally well-written. Some comments to prove that I read it:

  • One of those maps of the US showing where Arkansas is might be helpful
    • I've added one of those
  • "slavery chief among them" Well yes, but not helpful to a non-American reader (who might have stumbled across the site). Instead of just "slavery" I would say "the desire to preserve the institution of slavery in the United States" (No need for the comma before "as" btw)
    • Done
  • "newly elected President" Lincoln was elected president in November 1860; so this was five months before. But he had only assumed office on 4 March.
    • Switched to "newly inaugurated"
  • Is Federal capitalised or not?
    • Depends on the context. For "federal government", the answer is generally no, but it's often capitalized when ACW writers use it as an alternative to "Union"
  • "Hindman took command" Hindman has not been introduced year.
    • He's introduced now
  • "rebuilt Confederate strength in the region" Not sure what is meant here.
    • Rephrased
  • "strict and sometimes extralegal methods" Or here. (But I note that a quarter of the civilians were slaves.)
    • I've generally rewritten this to make it clearer and better indicate who was unhappy with it (although I doubt the slaves were too happy with Hindman, either, because he was working them like rented mules on CSA building projects)
  • "he was removed of district command" Suggest "from". And by whom?
    • Rephrased and clarified
  • "Hindman retained a field command, and pushed his forces back into southwestern Missouri" Um, you don't push things back. At least not your own forces.
    • Rephrased
  • "Hindman saw an opportunity in the Union positioning" I would stick to "federal", which has been used up to this point.
    • Done. Old habits die hard
  • Cane Hill isn't marked on the map. A better map would be appreciated if you have one.
    • It is, as 'Boonsboro' (see the parenthetical explanation for the dual name in the article). The old version of the map was cropped specifically for the Battle of Van Buren article, so I've made a new crop that focuses more on the locations relevant for this article
  • " believing himself abandoned by Schofield, Blunt decided to go on the offensive" Yes, that makes perfect sense: attack when you are abandoned and outnumbered. (You haven't said how many men Blunt had.)
    • I've indicate Blunt's strength and have elaborated a bit on his mindset
  • "Blunt waited for a supply train to arrive" I'm guessing this was a wagon train and not a choo choo, but other readers might not
    • I've rephrased this
  • "Blunt's men would have plentiful ammunition" Suggest "had" instead of "would have"
    • Done
  • "The Federals also had a numerical advantage in artillery" Do we have any idea how many guns each side had?
    • I remember the sources not strictly agreeing on this, so I'll need to take another look at this
      • The sources generally agree on a ratio of 30:6, so I've added that.
  • "The Federals cavalry's horses were also in better condition than those of the Confederates, and the Confederates were also inadequately uniformed" repeated "also" (I would drop them both)
    • Removed both
  • Is Joseph Bledsoe's Missouri Battery the same as Bledsoe's Missouri Battery?
    • No, that's Hiram Bledsoe's Missouri Battery. Joseph Bledsoe's was later known as Collins's Missouri Battery and would probably be under that title when created per wiki article naming conventions, so PM67 had me move Hiram Bledsoe's to that title in the GA review. The O'Flaherty source in the further reading is known to confuse the two on occasion.
  • "Seeing the Federal building" Sounds like a structure
    • Rephrased
  • "Scott and Burgess compare the outcome of the battle of a hung jury" Is "to a hung jury" meant?
    • Rephrased
  • "Missouri and northwestern Arkansas remained in Federal control." Suggest "under Federal control".
    • Done

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:27, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All done except for the cannon count; I'll research that further later this week. Hog Farm Talk 03:31, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: - Thanks for the review! Replies to all have been made above. Hog Farm Talk 02:57, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Great work - moved to support Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:07, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by CPA

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The map where Cane Hill lies confuses me. It say that it is in Missouri but the map is about Arkensas? Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:03, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5: I've corrected this. I'd copied the code for the infobox map from the article about a battle in Missouri, and didn't catch that. Hog Farm Talk 21:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Confederate troops led by Colonel Charles A. Carroll laid an ambush" No link?
    • No; I don't think Carroll is notable. He's not any of the people at Charles Carroll.
  • "for a group of supply wagons to arrive; logistics was difficult in the Ozark Mountains" This is part doesn't feel right?
    • I've clarified this (and got a reference error in the process)
  • "most of the Confederate cannon were obsolescent" --> "most of the Confederate cannons were obsolescent" cannon as plural is mostly a British way of saying.
    • Have made the change here and in several other places in the article
  • "early on the morning of November 28 that Blunt's" --> "early on the morning of November 28, that Blunt's"
    • Done
  • "encounter Shelby's next prepared line.[53][52]" re-order the refs?
    • Swapped
  • "Herron's men arrived in the area on the morning of December 7. The night before, Hindman had learned of Herron's approach, and decided to make a stand near Prairie Grove, instead of attacking Blunt. On the morning of December 7," Maybe have this part a bit chronocally?
    • Have rewritten this section
  • I have a feeling I miss an image in the bottem part of the battle section or the aftermath.
    • Have added an image of the fighting at Prairie Grove to the last section

A fine piece of paper I would say. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 18:35, 7 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CPA-5: - how do the changes I have made to the article look? Hog Farm Talk 00:47, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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  • Infobox map: perhaps one of those fancy maps where a reader can toggle between Cane Hill in the USA and Cane Hill in Arkansas?
  • Alt text is inconsistently applied.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:50, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted. Gog the Mild (talk) 03:55, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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  • Sources are of good quality
  • I added some links to the journals so I could find the articles
  • Some of the books publishers are linked but others are not
  • Does fn 79 point to the correct place? I think it is being redirected.
  • Spot checks: fn 11, 45, 61, 72 - all okay

All good. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Pendright

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I expect to start a review in a few days. Pendright (talk) 22:12, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]


@Hog Farm: First installment - will finish-up sson. Pendright (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

  • The Battle of Cane Hill was fought during the American Civil War on November 28, 1862, in northwestern Arkansas, near the town of Cane Hill.
Was fought betwen whom?
Done
  • Federal troops under Brigadier General James G. Blunt had entered northwestern Arkansas, and Major General Thomas Hindman of the Confederate Army sent a force under Brigadier General John S. Marmaduke to Cane Hill to collect supplies, in the opening stages of a campaign in which Hindman hoped to catch Blunt's command while it was isolated from the rest of the Federal Army of the Frontier, which was near Springfield, Missouri.
This sentence contains about 70 words?
Split sentence
  • After MacDonald's defeat, Marmaduke returned to the Cane Hill area with his force.
Don't recall reading that Marmaduke left?
Good catch; corrected
  • Cloud's men led the Federal advance, which made contact with Colonel Joseph O. Shelby's Confederate troopers on the morning of November 28. -> Replace comma which with "that"
I'm not 100% for sure this is the best phrasing - it would almost imply that there was a separate Federal advance that didn't run into Shelby's people. I'm open to any suggestions though
<>"Wich vs. that" - Here is my understanding of the applicable rule: The clause that comes after the word “which” or “that” is the determining factor in deciding the one to use. If the clause is essential to the meaning of the sentence, you use “that.” If you could drop the clause and leave the meaning of the sentence intact, use “which.”. -> It's your call! Pendright (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Have gone with an intermediate change that avoids both which and that
  • While the fighting was inconclusive, Hindman withdrew from the field and the Federals retained control of Missouri and northwestern Arkansas.
While the "outcome" of the fighting was inconclusive
Done

Baciground:

  • In December 1860, the state of South Carolina seceded from the United States as a result of several disagreements with the federal government, [chief among them was] the desire to preserve the institution of slavery in the United States chief among them. -> See the suggested changes
Done
  • The American Civil War began on April 12, when Confederate troops bombarded Fort Sumter.
It was the South Carolina militia who fired on the fort because the commander of the fort woulld not sutrmeter when requested to do so?
The SC militia vs. CSA is a degree of splitting hairs that isn't followed by most sources and isn't really worth getting into here. The SC troops were under command of a CSA general (Beauregard) who was. See for instance Battle Cry of Freedom (book) p. 273 The Confederates knew that help was about to arrive, so they opened fire on April 12 at 4:30 a.m. and David J. Eicher's The Longest Night p. 39 During the afternoon the Confederate bombardment of Sumter continued without pause .... Both of these are highly-respected modern single-volume treatments of the war.
<>I yield! Pendright (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fighting occurred to the north in Missouri during 1861.[4]
Quantify the fighting - some, etc.
went with "some"
  • In March 1862, Federal forces commanded by Brigadier General Samuel R. Curtis defeated a Confederate army commanded by Major General Earl Van Dorn in the Battle of Pea Ridge [fought] in northwestern Arkansas.[5] -> see the suggested addition.
Done
  • Curtis , who now commanded the Department of Missouri, formed the Army of the Frontier [that] , which was commanded by Brigadier General John M. Schofield. -> See the above suggested changes
Have made the which --> that change, but I suspect that "who now commanded the Department of Missouri" is an appositive that needs to be set off by commas on both ends. I may be wrong though.
You are correct - Pendright (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the end of October, the Confederates had been driven back, and Schofield had one division, commanded by Brigadier General James G. Blunt, stationed in Benton County, Arkansas.
driven back from where to where?
Added

Pendright (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Final installment Pendright (talk) 20:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC) Prelude:[reply]

  • He [Hindman] decided to push a cavalry force into the Cane Hill[15] (which was also known as Boonsboro)[16] area to distract Blunt, and [he would] then move the rest of his force in to the rear of Blunt's force and defeat the Federal division before reinforcements from Springfield could arrive.[15]
  • AKA should probably be in the lead too?
  • Good idea, added
  • Suggest the above changes
  • Have implemented these
  • Marmaduke had planned a strike against a Federal position at [the] Elkhorn Tavern, but [he] learned early on the morning of November 28 , that Blunt's forces were advancing up the Line Road, so the Elkhorn Tavern movement was cancelled. -> Suggest the above changes
Have made the latter two, but it is standard practice in sources discussing Elkhorn Tavern to refer to it as "Elkhorn Tavern" without the definite article
<>I yield - Pendright (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Battle:

  • After having made it to about 0.5 miles (0.80 km) from the Confederate position without resistance,[32] the Kansans encountered Shelby's scouts, who withdrew to the main Confederate camp after a brief exchange of fire.
Drop the comma after scouts
Removed
  • Both sides' batteries fired upon each for about an hour, with little effect.[36]
Drop the comma after hour
Done
  • Carroll had about 400 men (less than one quarter of his brigade's strength on paper), and two mountain howitzers , which [that] were positioned on the Confederate right.[44] -> See the above suggested changes
Done
  • At least s [S]ome of Carroll's men were armed only with shotguns, and after firing a few volleys with little effect, Carroll's force withdrew.[44] -> Suggest the above changes
Have made the latter change; Shea's phrasing leaves open the possibility that all of Carroll's people were armed with shotguns, so I'd rather keep the uncertainty at the beginning of the sentence
<>Okay - Pendright (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • By this time , it was around noon, and the fighting was shifting to the south toward Newburg,[44] which is now known as Clyde.[47] -> See the above suggested changes
Done
  • The eminence was about 400 feet (120 m) higher than the terrain around it.[51]
Could sustitute eminence for a more conventional word
Done
  • Marmaduke decided to make a stand at Reed's Mountain, deploying Shelby and MacDonald in a forward line, with Carroll's men further up the mountain.
Drop the comma after forwqard line
Done
  • At around 5:00 pm, the pursuit reached a house owned by John Morrow, where the Confederate retreat turned to the south.
Drop the comma after Morrow
Done
  • When Blunt [and] at the 6th Kansas Cavalry reached the Confederate ambuscade, the Confederate cavalrymen opened fire , throwing the Federal troops into confusion. -> See the above suggested changes
both made
  • Both Shea and Scott and Burgess take the position that the Confederates did present a flag of truce at the end of the battle as a ruse to give the battered Confederate forces time to break contact and leave the area.[64][65]
"both" meams "two people"?
Hmmm. I was trying to use "Scott and Burgess" as a singular item as it's not obvious from the journal article which part is from which author. Any ideas on rephrasing this? I'm struggling to come up with something that both fixes this issue and isn't clunky.
<>In hinsight, I think you are correct. Could change the second and to "along with"? Pendright (talk)
Yes, that is a good idea. Done. Hog Farm Talk 23:20, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aftermath:

  • Oates attributes the low casualty totals to Marmaduke's tactics, suggesting that if Marmaduke had attempted to fight a decisive defensive battle, that his command would probably have been completely wrecked.[67]
Drop the comma after battle
Done
  • After the fighting ended, Blunt withdrew his forces to Cane Hill, which [and it] became a [the] base of operations for his division.-> See the above suggested changes
Done
  • On December 3, Hindman moved his army north from Van Buren to attack Blunt; the day before, Blunt had suspected that the Confederates were going to be on the move, and [he] ordered the two divisions at Springfield to join him, while he took up defensive positions near Cane Hill. -> suggest the above changes
Done
  • On December 6 , Hindman learned of Herron's approach, and [he] decided to confront Herron first instead of Blunt. -> Suggest the above changes
done
  • A portion of the battlefield, about 5,750 acres (2,330 ha), was [has been] listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1994 as the Cane Hill Battlefield.[78] -> Suggest the above change
I'm not sure about this one - I don't know that it's grammatical to say "has been listed [...] in 1994" in this context
<>"Was" vs. "has been" - Here is the rational behind the useage as I understand it: Was is the past tense form of the phrase “to be” and is used to describe events that happened at a specific point in the past. On the other hand, “has been” is a verb form that is used to talk about an ongoing event or state of being that started in the past and is still happening. -> It's your call! Pendright (talk) 21:10, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'll stay with "was" here, as I don't have a source to indicate that the acreage has been constant throughout that entire time. Hog Farm Talk 23:20, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is it for now. Pendright (talk) 20:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Pendright: - Thanks for your helpful review! I've got a few grammar queries above, one where I'm struggling to come up with a good fix to an issue, and then replies on the Elkhorn Tavern and SC militia points. Prose problems and personal confusion on grammar and comma use are unfortunately part of my writing and talking; I've lived in Missouri for most of my life and proper English usage isn't exactly something that is common around here. Hog Farm Talk 03:01, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: I"ve responsed to each of your queries above. Ping me if you have any questions. BTW, a fundamental difference between casual speech and writing, I've read, is that speech is spontaneous whereas writing is planned. In any case, each of us has our strengths and weakness. Regards! Pendright (talk) 21:30, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Pendright: - I've replied to or made all of the suggested changes from round two. Thanks! Hog Farm Talk 23:20, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: All good - supporting! Pendright (talk) 00:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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