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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 21:20, 29 March 2023 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

Battle of Berea

[edit]

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Nominator(s): Catlemur (talk)

Battle of Berea (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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The topic of this article is a British punitive expedition against the Basuto people, conducted in revenge for Basuto cattle raiding. A combination of bad coordination between British commanders, Sir George Cathcart's underestimation of his opponents and determined Basuto resistance resulted in a stalemate. While it was just a bleep on the radar for the British, it forms an important part in the in the history of Lesotho.--Catlemur (talk) 14:30, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pickersgill-Cunliffe support

[edit]
  • Ranks aren't usually included in the infobox
 Done
  • "that took place on 20 December 1852"
 Done
  • "population and were gradually assimilated"
 Done
  • Can we have a date for Moshoeshoe's uniting of the chieftainships?
Since it was a continuous process and the information we have is based on oral traditions, I added the approximate date he came to be known as the chief of the Sotho instead of a particular clan.--Catlemur (talk) 21:38, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little introduction (perhaps where they were from) would be useful for the Koranna
 Done
  • "75 £" why is the symbol used afterwards? (same with 20,000 £ later on)
 Done
  • Kgosi Sekonyela is only mentioned once, not sure they are a necessary inclusion when the tribe is also linked
 Done
  • Ibid Gert Taaibosch, doesn't seem to be any significance in including the name
 Done
 Done
 Done
  • "Warden began delineating borders" when?
 Done
  • Where is Platberg?
I couldn't find an article for Platberg but its marked on the map in the infobox, north of Berea.--Catlemur (talk) 17:44, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done
  • "the boundaries in the south-west" of what?
 Done
  • "in inter-tribal conflicts"
 Done
 Done
  • "In late November 1852..." suggest starting this sentence with the suppression of the Xhosa, so that it flows better from the previous section
 Done
 Done
 Done
 Done
  • "On 13 November, he" new paragraph, so use "Cathcart"
 Done
  • "After some deliberation" was there really such a noticeable period of deliberation? If Moshoeshoe had heard of the result within two days it can't have been that out of the ordinary for a big calculation like that
 Done
  • "march on Thaba Bosiu at 4 a.m. the following day." we haven't had a date in a while, can you add one here so we're sure when Cathcart is marching?
 Done
 Done
  • " from the north; rounding up any cattle" I think a comma works better here
 Done
  • "would have to inevitably cross the mountain" well...he could just have continued a long way. Better to explicitly say why he would be better off crossing the mountain
 Done
  • "detachment; totaling under 400 men" again, a comma
 Done
  • "At dawn on 20 December 1852" year repetition probably not needed
 Done
  • "around 2 miles (3.2 km) from Hanger's Drift" considering there's no link or explanation this isn't a very good landmark for the casual reader
  • "spring east of Tsuitsuidi" ibid
  • "above the Berea Mission Station" ibid! if these places don't have links or explanations, we don't know where they are!
The Mission Station is actually marked on the map in the infobox. As far as the other locations go I understand that only locals would be able to tell where the landmark is located. Am I to remove any reference to them?--Catlemur (talk) 17:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done
  • "Napier's column then returned to the Caledon camp" did they keep the captured cattle?
Yes.--Catlemur (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They reached the village of Khobane..." still have no idea where the mission station is or what significance it holds, so again this isn't very useful as a reference
As I mentioned before its marked on the map, so I reckon its useful to mention it in the article.--Catlemur (talk) 17:12, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't capitalise light company
 Done
  • Is it "Khoabane" or "Khobane"? you use both
 Done
 Done
  • "...and rocket fire, withdrawing at 4 p.m..."
 Done
  • "12 a. m." there's an extra space here
 Done
  • "high degree of discipline"
 Done
  • "the Major-General" no need to capitalise
 Done
  • No need to use parentheses for the bit on the confused planning
 Done
 Done
  • "the Basuto had found"
 Done
 Done
  • "another large scale conflict" what do you mean by another? The Xhosa?
Having fought against the Xhosa, Cathcart didn't want to start a new large scale conflict with the Basuto. As he feared that it will cause a domino effect of forced displacement and tribal warfare.--Catlemur (talk) 21:52, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He therefore, ignored his officers' arguments" no need for a comma, and do we know what the opposing arguments were?
Fixed. The other officers wanted to launch another assault in order to crush the Basuto and cease the stolen cattle back.--Catlemur (talk) 17:44, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "popularly remembered by them"?
 Done
  • "loyalist Boer farmers" there hasn't been any discussion of the Basuto particularly targeting farmers loyal to the British before, or of a more general loyalism?
The Basuto were raiding pretty much everyone. The British were obviously more concerned about the property of loyalist Boers than that of natives or anti-British Boers.--Catlemur (talk) 17:44, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Give the Free State–Basotho Wars a date
There were three wars, the Basuto won the first one and were almost completely destroyed in the third one. There were interludes of peace between them. So which date should I give?--Catlemur (talk) 21:52, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Basuto article calls them a protectorate rather than a dominion? (Not sure whether you need to stipulate that it's a "royal" dominion either)
I cannot speak about the accuracy of the Sotho people article since I did not write it, but L. B. Machobane's Government and Change in Lesotho, 1800-1966: A Study of Political Institutions page 41 states: "So, on 12 March 1868, Sir Philip Wodehouse proclaimed Lesotho, anglicised as Basutoland, one of Her Majesty's dominions."--Catlemur (talk) 14:49, 4 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "according to an apocryphal story in which the"
 Done
  • Is Tylden 1969 actually from the Journal of the Society of Army Historical Research? 1969 was vol. 47 nos. 189–192 rather than vol. 1 no. 5. The source seems to be The South African Military History Society Military History Journal citing work from the aforementioned publication, I'm not too sure where you actually got the referencing information from!
My bad, corrected to South African Military History Society Journal since this is where I got the information from.--Catlemur (talk) 21:07, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have for now. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 20:54, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: Thank you for the review. I have either addressed or requested clarification on all your comments.--Catlemur (talk) 18:58, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to your comments here to make it all tidy. 1) If Hanger's Drift and Tsuitsuidi aren't on the map and we can't say exactly where they were then including them as reference points does more to confuse readers than to help them. Imo they should be removed. 2) Dating the Free State–Basotho Wars to even something as general as "in the following decade" would work. I've made a few minor edits to the article that hopefully you won't disagree with. I'm happy with the majority of your changes. One final query; where's Monaheng? "south-western Basutoland" may be a good enough description. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 18:49, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Pickersgill-Cunliffe: Removed Hanger's Drift, Tsuitsuidi and Monaheng (the latter is close to Hebron but there is no article for it on WP). Added the decade the last two Free State–Basotho Wars took place.--Catlemur (talk) 18:30, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Happy to support. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 22:34, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass

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All images are appropriately licensed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 08:29, 8 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support

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I'll look at this soon. Hog Farm Talk 20:17, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm not seeing where the 7,000 figure of Basuto and Taung from the infobox is found in the body
No source provides a concrete number about the strength of the Basuto. But we have two separate figures, the force commanded by Molapo and the main Basuto army under Moshoeshoe (Molapo did not rejoin the main force during the battle.): "Molapo had concealed 700 cavalry (including allied Taung) and several hundred infantry above the Berea Mission Station" and "6,000 Basuto cavalry led by Moshoeshoe". The source says several hundred, without specifying how many.--Catlemur (talk) 18:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Faunce not included in the casualties of 38 killed and 14 wounded?
While technically he was executed, Faunce is included among the killed.--Catlemur (talk) 18:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If Faunce is part of the 38, then that doesn't agree with the battle narrative. Per the battle narrative: 27 of Tottenham's lancers + 5 CMR near the mission + 1 killed while Eyre was moving across difficult terrain + 5 killed when Molapo attacked = 38, which doesn't leave room for Faunce in the 38 killed. Hog Farm Talk 22:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: I reread the three sources and corrected the mistake so its 27 of Tottenham's lancers + 5 CMR near the mission + 1 killed while Eyre was moving across difficult terrain + 4 killed when Molapo attacked and Faunce = 38. That should be all.--Catlemur (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The value of the cattle was far lower than the £20,000 goal set by Cathcart, who opted to write off any outstanding claims" - the earlier material in the article suggests that the value to reclaim was determined by head of cattle, but this suggests that Cathcart was at least partially basing the reclamation on total value seized. Should this monetary goal be mentioned in the prelude material, alongside the goal of number of cattle to seize?
The £20,000 goal was set by Cathcart specifically for the excess cattle that were to be sold after the rest had been distributed to other victims (whose claims were still not wholly covered). Since it was not mentioned in any other sources, I assume that it was a last minute decision rather than a goal set before the expedition.--Catlemur (talk) 21:53, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe an extra sentence where it's mentioned, or possibly a footnote? To the reader, this 20,000 comes out of nowhere. Hog Farm Talk 22:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I made a bit more clear.--Catlemur (talk) 20:26, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Basuto did not allow their chief to travel " - is this a one-time thing, or a general tradition of the Basuto?
I have read about other instances when they attempted to prevent him from traveling but he cursed them off. There were multiple instances of diplomatic delegations being ambushed on their way back from negotiations and then there was also the Piet Retief Delegation massacre, so it was understandable why this happened.--Catlemur (talk) 18:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's all from me. Hog Farm Talk 21:23, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: I have responded to all your comments.--Catlemur (talk) 21:53, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Catlemur: - a couple replies above. Hog Farm Talk 22:25, 1 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@CPA-5: I need to reread the sources to clarify the British casualty numbers. Other than that I have addressed everything.--Catlemur (talk) 04:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Zawed - Support

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Comments as follows:

  • For immediate locality context, perhaps add a mention to the first part of the lead to the battle being in southern Africa? And again in the first part of the Foundation of the Basuto State section (I'm a bit pedantic when it comes to providing context for readers)
 Done
  • British Cape Colony Sir George Napier,: should be a comma after Colony I think?
 Done
  • In 1848, Cape governor: suggest "In 1848, the new Cape governor..."?
 Done
  • Orange River Sovereignty Major Henry Douglas Warden believed...: should be commas here "..., Major...Warden,...". A similar approach should be taken when Cathcart is first mentioned.
 Done
  • ...the number of cattle the Basuto owed to restore.: suggest "the number of cattle the Basuto still needed to restore." Owed doesn't strike me as the best way to describe this.
 Done
  • ...Napier numbering 119 men of the CMR and 114 of the 12th Lancers was...: comma after Napier and Lancers
 Done
  • ...Lieutenant-Colonel William Eyre, its strength was at approximately...: suggest "Lieutenant-Colonel William Eyre and had a strength of approximately..."
 Done
  • group of 30 lancers: the previous sentence capitalises lancers, needs to be consistent
 Done
  • Cathcart's and Eyre's columns set off at 3 a.m.,...: I'm confused on timing here; the previous paragraph says the British, which I assume mean all three columns, crossed the Caladon at dawn?
They set off from the Platberg camp at 3 am. Since it is located at some distance from the Caledon (as seen on the map), it probably took them some time to reach the river, by then the sun had risen.--Catlemur (talk) 04:00, 17 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...from Thaba Bosiu at 12 a.m. Facing...: suggest midday rather than 12 a.m.
 Done
  • ...who fell back soon afterwards due to the rainstorm. The Basuto returned at 2 p.m.: I assume that this rainstorm is the "heavy rainfall" referred to to the end of the previous paragraph. However, that implies it started raining shortly before 4 p.m., whereas here it seems to have been well before 2 p.m.
@Zawed: I rewrote the first half of the last paragraph. Rain at 2 p.m. is only mentioned by Tylden and makes no sense in hindsight since it would have disrupted operations on the entire battlefield. Saks clearly states that the rainstorm lasted approximately from 4 to 5 p.m. The British saw the massed Basuto after the rainstorm had ended (as stated in all sources) so the 2 p.m. rainstorm seems like a particularly nasty typo. I think I have responded to everything.--Catlemur (talk) 08:59, 20 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for me, quite a few missing commas it seems but an easy fix! Cheers, Zawed (talk) 09:52, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support this. Zawed (talk) 07:13, 21 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass

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Will do this at the weekend but for now, I have to say some sources are at least 50 years old. Tylden even has a source of the 30s 80 years ago unless there are no recent sources I recommend replacing them with newer sources. Will do this after these are addressed. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 13:19, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • @CPA-5: Tylden is as far as I understand the preeminent specialist on 19th century Lesotho military history. So the best works on the subject are either citing him or are written by him. See the tribute written to him by the South African Military History Society. Sanders has published books as recently as 2011 but the latest one is on the Basuto Gun War, so its outside of the scope of this article. I couldn't find any more recent sources that cover this topic in detail.--Catlemur (talk) 17:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@WP:MILHIST coordinators: I've always considered our requirement to "accurately represent the relevant body of published knowledge" as not requiring recent sources unless there has been some new scholarship. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:37, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. –♠Vamí_IV†♠ 05:57, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto here - it is not as if the 1935 source heavily relied upon either. Given the niche subject matter, I wouldn't think there is a copious amount modern work on the topic. Zawed (talk) 07:44, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As Hawkeye says, my understanding is that the criterion requires the most up to date sources available. Ie, we don't penalise an article for not including something that doesn't exist. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi CPA-5, you ok with wrapping this up, incorporating the views above? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:14, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Of course it doesn't make to add a source that doesn't exist and I'm fine with that. But if a new source gets published in the near future I still recommend adding it. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Atmore & Sanders and give it a code like hoi.
Added ISSN and JSTOR code.--Catlemur (talk) 16:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Sanders sources change Peter Sanders to Peter B. Sanders
 Done
  • Sanders sources need a puplisher 'cause Cambridge University Press published it online.
The Journal of African History is published by Cambridge University Press both in print and online so its the same publisher.--Catlemur (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change "Moshoeshoe, chief of the Sotho" to "Moshoeshoe, Chief of the Sotho"
 Done
  • I'm a bit confused with Sanders (1975) the publisher here is Heinemann but the Google Book claims that Pearson Education is the publisher?
The copy I used says that it was published by Heinemann.--Catlemur (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add a JSTOR codes to Tylden.
 Done
  • Both Tylden and Saks's ISSNs don't match with Tyden and Sake?
@CPA-5: Changed the journal title to Military History Journal since that is how it appears on the ISSN portals.--Catlemur (talk) 03:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's everything I could find. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 14:15, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good; pass source review. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 12:39, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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