Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/42 cm Gamma howitzer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Gog the Mild (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 13:20, 13 January 2022 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

42 cm Gamma howitzer

Instructions for nominators and reviewers

Nominator(s): Vami IV (talk)

This is an article about a very big, very heavy, very frustrating-to-read-and-write-about German artillery piece used in World War I and that somehow survived in one example to be used again in World War II. I'm nominating this article for A-Class status today because I think that it's pretty much done, though I don't think I can take it to FAC. Reason being is that one source, and an Osprey source at that, is doing the heavy lifting here, and the Gamma gun lives in the shadow of Big Bertha (howitzer), the other 42cm siege gun. Regardless, as far as I have been able to determine, said Osprey book is the most definitive, comprehensive, and credible source available for not just this gun, but all the German siege guns of World War I. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 21:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Pentagonal Brialmont fort, 1914.jpg — It's not clear to me what the UK copyright status is. If there was a credited author for the image, he would need to have died at least 70 years ago.

Hi Vami_IV, would you care to respond to this? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:29, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oops; forgot about this. I can't even find the book the image is supposedly from, so I've just removed the image. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 19:07, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, looks ok.

Congrats on your first A-class nomination! (t · c) buidhe 00:05, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support

I can generally tell the broad classes of ACW cannons apart on sight, but I'm not familiar with the more modern pieces. Will take a look at this though. Hog Farm _Talk 21:20, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Body gives barrel length of 6.7; infobox has the longer 6.72 value. Which one is more correct?
- Oops. Both are, I just rounded down for the body one (iirc) as a compromise between Romanych & Rupp and Hogg. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Maximum elevation given in infobox is 66 degrees, while the body says it could get to 75
- Fixed –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"On 27 February 1915, KMK Battery 1, with the 8th Army, joined the ongoing attack on Osowiec Fortress" - earlier you say that all siege guns were sent to the western front, so it should probably be mentioned that this represents a transfer to the eastern front
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good work here; I was writing these up when Zawed posted theirs so there may be some overlap. Hog Farm _Talk 05:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comment

"A single Gamma-Gerät survived World War I ... Three German siege guns survived to the end of World War I"? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Is Three German siege guns survived to the end of World War I. Two were surrendered to the United States and the third,[27] the final Gamma-Gerät, was disassembled and hidden from Allied inspectors in Krupp's Meppen facilities.[27][28] clearer? –♠Vami _IV†♠ 22:31, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:06, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Zawed

Generally looks good, a few nitpicks though: Lead

It was designed from 1906 to 1910,...: reading the article, this isn't quite right, the design work only took up part of this time, development and construction took up some too. I suggest rephrasing to something like "Design and development began in 1906 and it entered service four years later with the Imperial German Army". The following sentence would need a bit of rejigging. Suggest mention the number of pieces made in the lead as well.
- Done I did mention the number, but have now moved it into the first paragraph. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Development

When rifled artillery became able to fire out of range of fortress guns,...: I'm having trouble parsing this. So are you saying rifled artillery had a greater range than fortress guns?
- Yes. Reworded to "When rifled artillery became able to fire from beyond the range of fortress guns". –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
a 30.5 cm howitzer and a 42 cm gun.: this clearly distinguishes between howitzer and gun, i.e. that they are two different things. It is clear that this article is about the gun, yet the title is "42 cm Gamma howitzer"? Coming back to this I notice there was some discussion at the time of the GA review regarding the title.
- Ah, indeed, this is a... rename scar? I've axed the word "howitzer" from that and the following sentence. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Design and production

to assemble all seven,[b] 20–25-metric-ton (20–25 t) portions of the Gamma-Gerät.: suggest mentioning the fact it was so large that it had to be transported in sub-assemblies earlier in the section.
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ammunition

42 cm high-explosive shell craters... and 42 cm shells were generally 1.5 m (4.9 ft) long,...: numbers shouldn't start a sentence unless written out.
- Fixed I axed the first sentence and rearranged the second. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Service history

The kurze Marinekanone (KMK) Batteries...: should be lower case for batteries since you aren't referring to a specific unit at this point.
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
With the start of World War I, all siege-gun batteries...: should that hyphen be there, doesn't appear to be elsewhere when referring to siege gub?
- Oops, fixed now. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The last action for Gamma-Geräts in the East was the German Invasion of Serbia.: invasion should be lower case here.
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The publisher locations should be included in the references section.
- I do not understand why. I have never included publisher locations or been called on it. –♠Vami_IV†♠ 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've always understood that the location should be included where possible. However, I will defer to whoever does the source review on whether this is required. Zawed (talk) 07:09, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for me, looking forward to promoting this one for your first A-Class article. Zawed (talk) 05:15, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to support in light of the responses above. Zawed (talk) 07:09, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Hawkeye7

Siege gun batteries equipped with Gamma-Geräts, of which 10 were produced I had to read this twice to realise that there were ten howitzers, not ten batteries. But that leads me to the question: how many batteries were there? And how many howitzers per battery?
The quick advancement of artillery technology beginning in the 1850s provoked rapid advancements in artillery Seems to be stating the obvious. Suggest rethinking this sentence to make it clearer what you are talking about.
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
military architects began placing forts in rings around cities or in barriers to block approaching armies. I'm not sure what is meant by "barriers" here.
- Reworded to [...] rings around cities or on a frontier [...] Combining rings and fortified frontiers, –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
New high-explosive artillery shells, which could penetrate earth to destroy masonry underground. Actually, you are talking about two different things here: the development of high explosive fillings for shells; and the development of the time fuze
- I must have jumbled this all together. Addressed now with the mention of the fuzes. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
which then became essential to his successor I don't think "essential" is the right word here.
- Reworded. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
that same decade... that same year Some awkward repetition here.
- Changed the second to "In 1893," –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
weighed 20–25-metric-ton -> 20 to 25 metric tons.
Not really seeing the benefit of conversion to long and short tons, neither of which is really appropriate here.
A 25-metric-ton (25 t) Or the benefit of converting metric tons to metric tons.
- Done Above three. Is "tonne(s)" correct here? –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
weighed between 400–1,160 kg -> weighed between 400 and 1,160 kilograms (880 and 2,560 lb)
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
it survived, intact drop the comma
- Removed –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The latter bombed Forts Douaumont and Vaux I think this is covered later in the paragraph.
- Moved links, scrapped sentence. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Three German siege guns survived to the end of World War I. What happened to the other seven?
- I used "siege guns" here in reference to all the siege guns employed by the Imperial Germany Army. Only one Gamma made it to the end. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unlink Romania. No need to link extant countries.
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Link artillery, high explosive, artillery fuze, Chamber (firearms), Recuperator (artillery),
- Done –♠Vami _IV†♠ 03:34, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:17, 6 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Hawkeye7: Any more comments? –♠Vami _IV†♠ 08:44, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No more comments. Moved to support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 09:23, 20 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from CactiStaccingCrane (talk)

Alright, not a MILHIST nerd but I will try my best reviewing :)

Inappropriate capitalizations:
- six Artillery batteries → six artillery batteries
  - Fixed. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Siege of Port Arthur → siege of Port Arthur
  - Oops. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Images: good, but image alt-text in infobox is missing
  - Added. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sourcing: World War I: The Definitive Encyclopedia and Document Collection is probably not a high-quality source because of ternary sourcing policy on Wikipedia
- Explain. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I assume CactiStaccingCrane is referring to Wikipedia:TERTIARY. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:05, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This section may need more wikilinking for non-experts at military
- I've added an additional link to this section. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Calibre → Caliber, don't know what variant of English is preferred
- I used British English for this article. –09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Idioms spotted:
- "with only two forts remaining in French hands" → "with only two forts remaining in France control"
  - Excised. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- "Acting on a study" → (active voice)
- "saw the utility of a newer, larger siege gun" → "found of a newer, larger siege gun useful" (technically still an idiom, but the ladder is much more clearer)
  - Revised. –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Joined wikilinks are discouraged, because it can be confusing:
- General Staff Helmuth von Moltke the Elder
- M-Gerät "Big Bertha" howitzer
  - I've delinked the second thing, but not the first, since it should be clear that those things couldn't link to the same thing.
Its standard rate → Its normal rate
- Changed to "usual rate". –♠Vami _IV†♠ 09:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(more to come)

Hi CactiStaccingCrane, is there more to come? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so, I consider that as a support for the nomination. Thanks for the head up! CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 23:54, 30 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

All sources used appear reliable
Referencing style is consistent
All OCLCs/ISBNs link to appropriate pages
Found no issues to address regarding sourcing, so supporting in this department.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:08, 2 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.