Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 199
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AFD clarification
The Articles for deletion article states that:
If a redirection is controversial, however, AfD may be an appropriate venue for discussing the change in addition to the article's talk page.
Does this mean that an AFD can be started by someone with the intent of redirecting instead of deleting? Plasticwonder (talk) 04:06, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Yes. If there is a contested redirect, the article is restored and it is brought to AfD. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:34, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think the ideal process is:
- Have an ordinary discussion on the talk page about redirecting the page.
- If (and only if) that discussion fails to reach consensus, try again at AFD.
- I dislike starting with AFD. It isn't usually necessary, and it sometimes has a feel of the nom trying to get rid of it through any means possible ("I'll suggest a WP:BLAR, but maybe I'll be lucky and they'll delete it completely"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:31, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would need some stats on the it isn't usually necessary claim, my intuition based on experience is that if a BLAR is contested it's either dropped or ends up at AfD. CMD (talk) 05:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with that. From what I have seen at least, if redirecting is contested, it then is usually discussed at AFD, but that's just me. Plasticwonder (talk) 08:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- It depends how active the respective talk pages are (redirected article and target), but certainly for ones that are quiet AfD is going to be the most common. Thryduulf (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- It will also depend on whether you advertise the discussion, e.g., at an active WikiProject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:44, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- It depends how active the respective talk pages are (redirected article and target), but certainly for ones that are quiet AfD is going to be the most common. Thryduulf (talk) 09:33, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I agree with that. From what I have seen at least, if redirecting is contested, it then is usually discussed at AFD, but that's just me. Plasticwonder (talk) 08:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I usually just go straight to AfD. I've found that editors contesting redirects usually !vote keep and discussing on talk just prolongs the inevitable AfD. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:58, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Gotcha. Plasticwonder (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- Looking at the above comments: What is it about the Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers process that isn't working for you all? If you redirect an article and it gets reverted, why aren't you starting a PM? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:37, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- For me, it's lack of participation, no tool to list something at PAM, and no relisting option so proposed merges just sit for a very long time before being closed. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:21, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- What voorts said. Multiple times now I've floated the idea of making PAM more like RM, one of these years I should really get around to doing something more than that. I won't have time before the new year though. Thryduulf (talk) 23:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think PAM should be merged into AfD, since both generally involve discussions of notability. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- Merging often involves questions of overlap and topical distinction rather than just notability, although this also ends up discussed at AfD. I do wonder if this would leave proposals to split out in the cold though, as much like merge discussions they just sit there. CMD (talk) 04:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think PAM should be merged into AfD, since both generally involve discussions of notability. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:00, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- The most important tool is Twinkle > Tag > Merge. I personally prefer its "Merge to" option, but there's a plain "Merge" if you don't know exactly which page should be the target.
- All merges get bot-listed in Wikipedia:Article alerts. Wikipedia:Proposed article mergers is another place to advertise it, and I'd bet that Twinkle could post those automatically with relatively little work (an optional button, similar to notifying the creator of deletion plans).
- I dislike "relisting"; things should just stay open as long as they need to, without adding decorative comments about the discussion not happening fast enough. In my experience, merge proposals stay open because everyone's agreed on the outcome but nobody wants to do the work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:46, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- What voorts said. Multiple times now I've floated the idea of making PAM more like RM, one of these years I should really get around to doing something more than that. I won't have time before the new year though. Thryduulf (talk) 23:45, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- For me, it's lack of participation, no tool to list something at PAM, and no relisting option so proposed merges just sit for a very long time before being closed. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:21, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- Would need some stats on the it isn't usually necessary claim, my intuition based on experience is that if a BLAR is contested it's either dropped or ends up at AfD. CMD (talk) 05:48, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think the ideal process is:
- In this context isn't redirection a *type* of deletion (specifically delete while leaving a redirect)? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 07:05, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would think so. Plasticwonder (talk) 07:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's only a deletion if an admin pushes the delete button. Blanking and redirecting – even blanking, redirecting, and full-protecting the redirect so nobody can un-redirect it – is not deletion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:34, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- That might be clear to you (and the other admins) but almost nobody in the general community understands that (to the point where I would say its just wrong, deletion is broader than that in practice). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it has always been clear to me, and I am not, and have never wished to be, an admin. But, then again, I am a bit strange in that I expect things to be as people say that they will be. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:34, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I'm not an admin, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:29, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- Contested redirects going to AfD makes sense. Articles are redirected for the same reasons they're deleted and redirecting is probably the most common ATD. I've opened plenty of AfDs where my nom recommends a redirect instead of deletion, including when I've BLARed an article and had the BLAR reverted. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:38, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- If a redirect has already been discussed or attempted, and consensus can't be reached easily, then I've got no problem with AFD. What I don't want to see is no discussion, no bold redirects, nobody's even hinted about a merge, and now it's at AFD, when the problem could have been resolved through a less intense method. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:07, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- Well, it has always been clear to me, and I am not, and have never wished to be, an admin. But, then again, I am a bit strange in that I expect things to be as people say that they will be. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:34, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- That might be clear to you (and the other admins) but almost nobody in the general community understands that (to the point where I would say its just wrong, deletion is broader than that in practice). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:23, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's only a deletion if an admin pushes the delete button. Blanking and redirecting – even blanking, redirecting, and full-protecting the redirect so nobody can un-redirect it – is not deletion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:34, 18 December 2024 (UTC)
- I would think so. Plasticwonder (talk) 07:33, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
Donation Appeals
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Why am I getting large donation appeal boxes that obstruct my access to Wikipedia when I already donated on 20 November 2024? Do you keep records of donations? New Collegiate (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- @New Collegiate, you can go into your Preferences and turn off banners. Schazjmd (talk) 22:42, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I want to propose Draft:Manual of Style/Israel- and Palestine-related articles as a new guideline with an RfC. I'm starting this thread in case any outsiders to this area want to provide input or have questions. For context, the goal of this manual of style is to get agreement on broad principles to make editing easier in this topic area. As an example, WP:PIA5 is dealing with inconsistent use of the word "massacre" specifically, which has caused much arguing over whether there is a double standard, so this guideline makes the standards we should be using explicit. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 06:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- Are all four points currently included based on previous conversations, or are any novel to this proposal? On the broader framing, I wouldn't create the guideline solely talking about NPOV, it is helpful to have guidelines to help describe encyclopaedic style if nothing else. On the example of massacre, I'm not up to date with the recent or ongoing discussions, but I'm surprised there's no mention in the draft of WP:WTW, as this seems a classic case. CMD (talk) 07:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Chipmunkdavis: The settlements language comes from previous discussions/consensus, likewise with the West Bank naming conventions section. The categorization language comes from a suggestion on the talk page of the draft.
- The "massacre" part is a novel part of the proposal. I would say that it seems like an obvious WP:WTW, but there's many RMs in the topic area in which editors use their own definition of the term "massacre" (like civilian death toll, mechanism of killing, see User:BilledMammal/ARBPIA_RM_statistics for a list of 24 RMs about the term "massacre"), and argue about whether or not the event meets that standard. I want to make it easier for editors to disengage by citing this guideline, instead of getting into lengthy arguments over points that don't contribute much to consensus (which is what happens now).
- The reason the guideline is short is because I believe it will give it the best chance of passing right now. In the future, I'd like to get consensus to add more points to this guideline. I thought proposing a lengthy guideline upfront would create a scenario in which everyone at an RfC agrees a guideline would benefit the area, but individual editors have a small issue that prevents them from supporting this specific version. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 07:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- At a quick look, it seems most pages in that statistics page were not moved to a title with "massacre"? Seems sensible to collate previous discussions together, if massacres is new (as new as something discussed 24 times can be?) there might need to confirm that one. CMD (talk) 08:20, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- One issue with the massacre bit is that should be part of an AT naming convention, not in the MOS. Likewise, appropriate categorizations usually aren't in the MOS. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:27, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Voorts: What would you recommend as a central place to get agreement on principles? Maybe making it a manual of style subpage isn't the best decision, but I believe centralizing specific points of agreement would benefit the Israel-Palestine topic area.
- Diffusing the guidelines to multiple pages would defeat the purpose of this proposal, which is to centralize the resources we have on previous consensus to facilitate better discussions. Chess (talk) (please mention me on reply) 07:27, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
- Things can be centralized in an essay or information page after the community weighs in on the various proposals. I also think it might be prudent to wait until PIA5 is done before trying to implement these changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:48, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I've made a case for the idea here - thought I'd post here as well to get some more opinions. --Richard Yin (talk) 13:07, 28 December 2024 (UTC)