Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 January 6

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January 6

Reason nipples aren't allowed in mainstream media or Instagram, etc

Some celebrities have been posting topless photos on Instagram in order to "free the nipple".

Why SPECIFICALLY are nipples banned in the first place? Not looking for some kind of obvious value judgement like "Americans are prudes" or "Americans are hypocrites who don't mind exploding heads but can't stand nipples" or something like that. I'm looking for an actual devil's advocate argument why nipples are bad or WHY and HOW nipples will corrupt the children. I mean, clearly they WON'T corrupt the children, but there has to be SOMEONE out there arguing that they will. Who is this person (or are these persons), and what is their argument exactly? Please provide links.--Captain Breakfast (talk) 05:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Think "Puritanism". It explains everything that seems contradictory about American cultural taboos. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree with this line of thought, but here it is:

1) If female nipples are shown on TV, this will lead girls to show their nipples, too.

2) Once they show their nipples, that will lead to fondling of those nipples by boys.

3) That will lead to sex, venereal diseases, and unwanted pregnancy.

A separate line of thought is just that "God wouldn't want nipples shown", in which case nobody is supposed to question God's reasons. StuRat (talk) 05:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The Garden of Eden story in the Abrahamic religions directly teaches that nudity is shameful, and that good people should be modest and cover themselves. Much of Western thought on the issue of nudity is strongly influenced by such religious traditions. In addition, nudity gets closely connected with notions of sexuality, which likewise is only considered acceptable to many religions within limited contexts (i.e. marriage / procreation). See also: Nudity in religion, religion and sexuality, and nudity (note that "nudity" contains many images of naked people). Dragons flight (talk) 07:53, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

This reminds me of Burlesque performers. They can take their tops off as part of a routine, and expose the entire breast, but cannot for some reason show the nipples. They always have to have either some form of pasty or a tassle. One performance I saw recently the tassle actually fell off mid rotation and the performer screamed and covered the nipple with her hand and left the stage red faced a moment or two later... I've never found out why the whole entire breasticle is allowed to shown other than the nipple... I don't get it! gazhiley 10:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the issue may come from the difficulty of defining what is a breast, once you accept the rule that a naked female breast cannot be shown on television. Should the slightest bit of flesh be considered taboo ? Obviously not, because various perfectly acceptable styles of dress allow a peek of flesh. But then how much skin is too much ? Should the censors get out their rulers to decide? The solution is that when you see a nipple, the acceptable threshold has obviously been passed, so it's a violation. Which is how the nipple came to stand in for the breast itself. --Xuxl (talk) 12:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying: showing the nipple solves the definitional problem of "what exactly is a breast?". But, back to the post immediately preceding yours: why would the entire breast be allowed to be shown? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Showing everything about the breasts except the nipples is routine for female burlesque performers here in Finland too. Sometimes, a tassle accidentally falls off. Usually the performer finishes her dance anyway, and as soon as it is over, covers the nipple with her hand. Sometimes they cover their nipples with their hands already when dancing. I have never seen a performer scream and run off the stage red-faced just because her tassle accidentally fell off. JIP | Talk 19:28, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, it was right at the end of the routine, so she was leaving within a few seconds anyway... She was a fairly new performer and probably was scared she'd get into trouble as the rule of no nipples is strongly advised during training... My best friend runs a burlesque training school and runs a monthly show - it's a hard life being her friend... ;-) gazhiley 11:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

• The real reason is that TV broadcasts in the USA are regulated by the FCC. Here is a link to their code on "Obscene, Indecent and Profane Broadcasts" [1]. It says in part:

“ The FCC has defined broadcast indecency as "language or material that, in context, depicts or describes, in terms patently offensive as measured by contemporary community standards for the broadcast medium, sexual or excretory organs or activities." Indecent programming contains patently offensive sexual or excretory material that does not rise to the level of obscenity. ”

In short, showing a female nipple on broadcast TV (but not a male nipple, apparently) could be classified as obscene, and the broadcaster could be fined. The thing about a standard like this is that even the idea of punishment is often enough to keep people away from the line. At present, one viewer complaining (about virtually anything) might be enough to cause a hefty fine [2]. So there's a lot of de facto self censorship going on. These descriptions of obscenity go to court from time to time, there are some listed at United_States_obscenity_law, and I'm suspect that some court cases specific to nipples on TV could be found by googling variants of /FCC obscene nipple case law/ SemanticMantis (talk) 16:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Replying to the OP to address one thing. My 3-year-old niece must have seen both of her parents naked in the sauna several times. She will probably stop going to the sauna with her father in a few years. I don't think this has caused any harm to her. But last Christmas time, a relative had left a war film running on the TV and failed to spot her going to watch. She saw a scene where enemy combatants were executed by shooting in the head (or something, I didn't catch it myself) and was instantly absolutely terrified. It took almost an hour of consoling to calm her down. JIP | Talk 20:15, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

What is the similarity between train sets and nipples? They are both intended for children, but it's always the father that plays with them the most. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 04:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I guess I have a related question: what makes the breasts offensive/private parts anyway? I mean, I'm not prudish in any way, but I understand that genitals are sexual organs and sex is something that many people feel anxious or private about and the anus, even if it wasn't so close to the genitals, is a "dirty" part of the body due to feces being disgusting. There are rationales behind wanting those to be covered in polite society. But what makes the boob more private than the belly button or the suprasternal notch of the manubrium? Matt Deres (talk) 02:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Because it has become sexualized. Again, think "puritanism", and how recently it was that men's chests were also expected to be covered when on the beach. And the brouhaha in the 1960s over "I Dream of Jeanie's" midriff showing. And how "Entertainment Tonight" puts red bands across pictures, not just for the obvious, but even over "cleavage". While talking about them at some length, of course. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:37, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Closest railway stations?

Here in sunny old Exeter,we have three railway stations within a very short space of each other.From St.Thomas to St.David's is timetabled at 1-2 mins,and from St.David's to Central as another 1-2 mins. Are there any railway stations closer to each other than this? Lemon martini (talk) 13:42, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

In Paris, Gare de Bercy and Gare de Lyon are about a minute apart, closer than most metro stations. --Xuxl (talk) 13:55, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

In the UK there is also Ryde Pier Head to Ryde Esplanade, timetabled 2-3 mins apart. Clever rail users used to take advantage of the fact that they were so close together and buy an annual season ticket for travel between the two, even if they never lived anywhere near the Isle of Wight and never intended to use the season ticket. The reason for this was that possession of an annual season ticket enabled one to buy heavily discounted rail fares across the country. I have no idea if this loophole still exists. --Viennese Waltz 14:08, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

In London, Kings Cross and St Pancras are virtually next door to each other, and share the same underground station. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Was going to say those two. They are quite actually next door from each other though. You just walk across that wee little street and you're in the the other. Euston Station is a short walk over from those two as well. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Tevet 5775 18:21, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Wait, you can't take a train from Kings Cross to St Pancras - they're both termini. So do they count as an answer to the OP? Hayttom 12:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hayttom (talk • contribs)

Carlton railway station and Netherfield railway station are just 460 yards apart. Don't know how the journey gets timetabled though. --Antiquary (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

According to this forum thread, the shortest mainline distance between stations is London Blackfriars to City Thameslink at 14 chains (280 m). Tevildo (talk) 21:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I wondering the same thing but a quick search couldn't confirm that you couldn't take a train between them so let it be. If we're going to include stations without a train (or even a rail connection?) between them, it seems to me it's a bit arbitary whether something is a different station or not. It's hardly uncommon there will be different services which meet at some point. Sometimes these will nominally be in the same connected station, sometimes these will be in nominally different stations possibly with gates between them (although I think there's often a trend towards allowing travel between without gates). Sometimes even though they may be nominally different stations they may end up with the same name. Nil Einne (talk) 12:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Wrexham Central to Wrexham General is timetabled to take 2 minutes, though that seems a little generous to me. Until the early 1980s, what is now platform 4 of Wrexham General, which the service to Central uses, was a completely separate station, Wrexham Exchange. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Huyton to Roby only takes two minutes, as does Oxford Road to Picadilly in Manchester. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 06:23, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Is Ethiopian centenarian still alive?

I have found few year old articles about Mekey Yetashawork, Ethiopian centenarian from Denver who is born April 1909. Is he still alive because I haven't found any report about him since january 2013 and if he has passed away is there any obituary about him? 62.72.228.251 (talk) 16:34, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Please review WP:BLP. Providing information on private individuals is fraught with the potential for abuse, Especially full names and dates of birth (WP:DOB)and amounts to abuse of this desk as well. μηδείς (talk) 17:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Unhatted. Good grief Medeis. The OP is asking for sources. I'd reinstate the name and date of birth, except that you've unbelievably removed them. --Viennese Waltz 19:33, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Good grief, VW, I see at least we are now paying attention to BLP here. I make no apologies for my good faith concern, especially in light of your endless harpying. μηδείς (talk) 20:35, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

For reference, here's a video [3] where the guy talks a bit about his life and habits. It also contains his full name, which we can assume he consented for USA today to publish. I have not been able to find any mention of his death. The fact that I can't find any death records doesn't mean he's alive, but I also wouldn't expect more news about him after the spate of blurbs from 2013. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

St. Clair A. Mullholland Hobbies

Did he do any painting? We have a painting ( a seascape ) that is signed St. Clair A. Mullholland - 1903. Could this the same person as the Civil War hero described in Wikipedia?72.95.222.9 (talk) 19:31, 6 January 2015 (UTC) David G. Chalmers 404 McKown Ln. Sewickley, PA 15143 412 749 3583

Certainly the US Civil War officer St. Clair Augustine Mulholland was an artist, and I see many references to him on the Web as a specialist in maritime subjects. Here's an example of his work. Note that his name is spelled Mulholland, not Mullholland, and if your painting's signature spells it the latter way then there may be a problem. --Antiquary (talk) 21:25, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

3 digit railroad identification numbers

Does anyone have a list of the 3 digit numbers used to identify railroads 96.245.25.59 (talk) 19:35, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Could you please be a bit more specific? Do you mean railroad companies? Railroad routes? Railroad stations? Which country's railroads are you referring to as well? Details, man, details! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Tevet 5775 20:07, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Numbers used by whom? —Tamfang (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm guessing based on your geolocation to the U.S. that you're referring to the three-digit AAR Rule 260 codes. I found this list, but I can't vouch for its accuracy or completeness. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 01:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Spanish Peseta

Questions are what was the value of the gold Peseta in 1492 and what would be the value of the peseta today?

I am writing the life of my father, Philip Louis Fishler. In one of the Pogroms our forebearers (Jews) were sent from Jerusalem to Spain and lived there for about 1700 years. The name was Fiz, Fizlores,Fizler, Fishler (America) over the years. In 1391 there was a Pogram in which 50,000 Jews were killed and 50,000 to 100,000 Jews were forced to become Catholics. In 1492, Isabella and Ferdinand made an edic driving all Jews from Spain unless they became Catholic. Those leaving could take no money out of the country. My forebearers,became Catholics either in 1391 or 1492, becoming Conversos, Crypto-Jews, Baptizos, etc. Many of those Conversos practiced Catholicism, with some practiced Catholicism and Judaism, called Marranos (Swine/pigs), Hidden Jews, etc. My forebearers practisted Judaism and Catholicism. In the year Ferdinand (1492) drove the Muslims from southern Spain and had no money to fund Christopher Columbus. Ferdidnad and Isabella "collected" one billion Peseta from the Jews leaving, dividing the money equally between the Inquisition and Ferdinand and Isabella--to support Columbus. What is interesting is that there are many books on Columbus writing that he was of Jewish descent--read his statement in his journal when he left the area seeing the Jews on ships moving out from Spain.

Stan Fishler — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.219.207 (talk) 20:06, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I can't answer your question, but based on my experience in Jewish genealogy I recommend that you be more critical of the sources from which you derived your family history as mentioned above. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 05:50, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

When Spain switched to the Euro in 2002, the exchange rate was 1 euro = 166 pesetas...so in 2002 a peseta was a very small amount - less than 1 US cent or one UK penny. It's hard to predict what the value of the peseta would have been today had it not been abolished because that would depend on how Spain would have managed economically without being a part of the eurozone and all sorts of other complications arise with making that guess. But it's reasonable to assume that the exchange rate would be at least comparable to the 2002 rate.

Back in the late 1400's the concept of money exchange was decidedly sketchy - if you wanted to convert a gold peseta into something else, probably the only concern would be the weight and fineness of the gold. In the UK, in 1492, gold was selling for 2 UK pounds per fine ounce (http://www.measuringworth.com/datasets/gold/result.php). I was unable to discover anything about these "gold pesetas" dating back to the 1400's - the best I could find was the 1794 gold 20 peseta coin. But most gold coins that were actually used in active circulation seem to be between about 3 and 8 grams - which is 0.1 to 0.3 ounces, which would have been worth between 0.2 and 0.6 UK pounds at that time.

So it seems that the value of the peseta compared to the UK pound has declined by a factor of maybe 30 to 100 over the intervening five centuries - but then the buying power of a UK pound has declined steeply over that period too. I find it hard to believe that there was even a billion pesetas in existence back then - for sure it would have been an ungodly amount of money! Of course if you actually have a 1472 gold peseta then the present day value of the gold is US$39 per gram - so the value of the gold in the coin itself would be between $100 and $300 (66 and 198 UK pounds). Historical value to a coin collector would obviously be larger than that - but the actual value is hard to guess, because the rareity and condition of the coin is absolutely everything to collectors.

A billion 0.1 to 0.3 ounce coins would be between 3,000 and 10,000 tons of gold. Over all of human history, we've only mined 165,000 tons. If we'd been mining it at a constant rate since 1497, then only a few hundred tons could possibly have existed back then - and I'm sure our production rate has increased steadily over the years. So you're suggesting that the Jews were taxed an amount equal to perhaps 2% to 8% of all the gold ever mined? That's just impossible...there simply wouldn't have been that much gold in the entire world in the 1500's. SteveBaker (talk) 15:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

SteveBaker (talk) 15:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

There is no really accurate way to convert historical values into present-day values because of dramatic changes in the relative value of things. The biggest issue is that a given amount of labor today commands vastly greater purchasing power than the same amount of labor in past centuries and especially before industrialization. This is because of huge advances in technology and productivity. For example, it might have taken 3 or 4 hours of work at the median wage in 1500 to earn enough to purchase a one-pound loaf of bread. Today, the median worker probably needs to work just a few minutes to earn enough for such a loaf. Let's say that a loaf of bread today is worth £2 and the median worker earns £14 per hour. Let's say that a loaf of bread in 1500 cost a penny and that the average worker earned a farthing an hour (to use historic English currency, since I'm familiar with it). If we convert the value using labor, £1 in 1500 would be worth £3,360 today. If we convert the value based on purchasing power relative to bread, £1 in 1500 would be worth only £480 today. Of course the ratio would be much different if we used the purchasing power relative to other items. The cost of labor-intensive items such as haircuts has fallen much less relative to wages than the cost of more capital-intensive items such as bread. Then there is the issue of relative prestige. A person with a yearly income that translated into an average purchasing power of, say, £5,000 today would be considered poor in the UK. However, the same purchasing power in 1500 would have made a person quite affluent, since the cost of living was dramatically lower at the time, and there were so many fewer things to have to pay for. (No bills for electricity, water, internet, waste removal, or phone service, lower taxes if any, few and simple household appliances, no trains or cars, and so on.) So given all of these incomparables, there is really no way to state an "accurate" conversion rate. Having said all that, I agree that the billion peseta figure sounds implausible. It is probably an exaggeration. I don't doubt that millions of pesetas were taken, but a billion sounds doubtful. Marco polo (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

What documents required in order to enter Iraqi Kurdistan by a car that has Swedish license plates?

I want to know about what documents required in order to enter Iraqi Kurdistan by a car which has Swedish license plates via the following countries:

Sweden → Denmark → Germany → Austria → Hungary → Serbia → Bulgaria → Turkey → Iraqi Kurdistan. --Kiel457 (talk) 20:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Passport and visa money where necessary, I'd assume. Not sure they'd care about the plates as everyone loves Swedes anyway (except for some Norwegians and Finns). Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Tevet 5775 21:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Someone asked a similar question on this blog, and the blogger suggested contacting the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) directly. Here is a contact page on their website. Or you could contact the KRG office in Sweden, listed here. According to this source, Swedish citizens do not require a visa to enter Iraqi Kurdistan, but you might confirm that with the KRG office in Sweden. Marco polo (talk) 21:27, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The OP specifically said Swedish plates though, not a passport. It might be a foreigner meeting up with friends in Sweden and road-tripping it down to Erbil (which sounds amazing as an aside). But good call on pointing him to or her the KRG just in case. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 15 Tevet 5775 22:43, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

The license plate of the car doesn't matter - it's completely irrelvant what nationality your car is. It's your passport that matters. To go through EU-member states, you'd need a visa, then also another visa to get into Kurdistan (which is an autonomous region fo Iraq) from Turkey. At this particular moment in time, I wouldn't really recommend going there, however. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 04:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The OP might be from a country that's part of the visa waiver program and might not need a visa for EU countries. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 16 Tevet 5775 05:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

The EU and Kurdistan are not exactly in the US, are they? KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (Chin Wag) 06:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Unrelated discussion hidden by AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 10:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
To save time later, the OP should include in his paperwork, his preferred mode of execution. Just to cover all the bases. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 04:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC) I think beheading is the only option, at the moment. I suppose you can be shot first for trying to escape, which saves the 1-minute or so agony of having your head removed. Anyway, I doubt this would be a happy end to any holiday. KägeTorä - (影虎) (Chin Wag) 04:48, 7 January 2015 (UTC) Come now, lads. Kurdistan is safe. They actually want that whole statehood thing to work out. Those Daysh bastards are far-off now. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 16 Tevet 5775 05:40, 7 January 2015 (UTC)