Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 September 11

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September 11

architect

frankly, what are the core subjects that an architect must be well-versed in?

i very well know two of them are physics and math. what about chemistry? and other subjects? please inform me...

thanx —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.50.130.182 (talk) 02:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

A lot of the knowledge needed as an architect is pretty architecture/construction specific, like about the systems that go into a functioning building, building materials, lighting, using various design software, building codes, etc. Two other important skills are having good spatial sense and good design sense, although I guess those might not count as subjects and there's a limit to how much they can be taught. Geometry is important, especially as people get more adventurous with using curves and complex shapes as allowed by new computer techniques, but there's not really any higher math involved as far as I know. Certainly nothing past calculus. Some physics is important, but it's pretty specific things. For instance there's clearly some structural engineering involved in designing a bulding, but a lot of times architects will consult actual structural engineers on those details. Disclaimer: I'm not myself an architect so I may be leaving some things out, I just know a bunch of architects. Rckrone (talk) 05:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I recommend you try looking at the websites of universities. Most of them will list requirements for their undergraduate courses. For example, Cambridge in the UK says "a combination across [the humanities/science] division is the best preparation", while the Center for Environmental Planning and Technology in Ahmedabad mentions only Mathematics as a compulsory subject, but demands a minimum aggregate score over all subjects. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 08:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Building is subject to local regulations which architects are assumed to know about. The regulations may include zoning, building standards, distance to adjacent buildings and borders, connection to gas/water/electricity/sewage, car parking, fire regulations and more. Get to know the local approval procedures because that alone is an important service to your client. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

For the record, the physics class that the architects took at my university was a joke compared to the real physics classes. Googlemeister (talk) 13:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Architects must have a broadly-based field of knowledge that covers engineering (which leans on physics, thermodynamics and so on), law, psychology, art history, color theory, materials science, delineation, management, building codes and regulations and, last but not least, design. Physics appears in architecture school only as an adjunct to structural engineering and is not very rigorous. Calculus is usually required, but it is unusual to find an architecture student who does well at it. The critical skills, as pointed out above, involve three-dimensional visualization and design composition, which can be taught, within limits. That's why architecture students spend more than half their time in design studio. The law, physics, engineering and other matters make up the remainder of class time. Architecture schools usually assume that you can already draw and draft, and have some skill at technical design software before you arrive. Architects are expected to be articulate in both spoken and written communication, and an ability to clearly describe the design and construction process to laymen and experts alike is essential. Management skills come into use in the design production process, when the architect is usually the leader of a design team including engineers and other consultants, and during construction, when the architect is the chief point of contact between the design and construction teams. Acroterion _(talk) 15:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

question regarding roof ventillation for my home

I am building a home with reinforced concrete roof in a hot tropical region where there is heavy exposure to sun for 9 months of the year. The flat top RC roof traps the hot air and causes excessively hot condition indoor. I am planning to put holes in the roof to alleviate this. I want to put tin sheet pipes over the holes so that hot air under the roof would be sucked. Is this a wise and effective step? How large should these holes be in order to ensure effective stack effect? Can these holes affect the strength of the roof, when there is only walls on four sides to support the 6 m x 6 m roof of 10 cm thickness? --Jaffermon (talk) 04:42, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Similar structres exist on peaked roofs called Ridge vents. You could follow some of the links from that article, they may be illuminating for your particular problem. --Jayron32 06:04, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you build openings for ventilation under the eaves of your roof? They do not weaken the roof, are less susceptible to rain and can be blocked when you do not need the ventilation. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. There are no eaves for the flat top RC roof. I can put the vents close to the roof on the walls but will they be effective? My experience says that the trapped hot air indoor hardly takes curved course to get out. I have narrow slits as vents immediate to the ceiling in my current home but they hardly let out the hot air. I don't know if hot air would get out through the vents I want to place right on top of the roof and can achieve the stack effect with some extended metalic pipe attached to the wind. That's where I am seeking advice from knowing people. --Jaffermon (talk) 15:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The first and easiest step is to improve the reflectivity of the roof with a bright white or reflective coating. You should try to deflect the heat before it heats the mass of the concrete. Even though it's a hot climate, a little insulation could help, particularly in the form of a radiant barrier with an airspace under the slab. I can't answer whether a hole in the roof will affect the strength (we don't offer engineering advice here), but some relatively small holes that don't cut the reinforcing are unlikely to be a problem. You should consult an engineer. The sheer mass of a slab that thick (is 10" or 10cm?) will take a lot of time to cool, so ventilation seems to be a less productive strategy than reflection. Extending the vents upward will enhance the stack effect and give you something to seal to. Acroterion _(talk) 15:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Acroterion. Your reply was very helpful. In fact I had forgotten a basic fact that the mini solar chimney that I would mount on the slab wouldn't draw hot air at night. So, I need to employ other means along with this. There is one more question. Can this drawing vent be placed on the wall instead of right on top of the slab, and will it still draw? I mean to put a wall on the hole right under the roof and place a curved tin pipe upwards with enough surface area on top to catch the sun. Will this be as (or nearly as) effective as the vent on the slab? This way I can ensure that the strength of the slab is not compromised. Can operable ventilators right below the ceiling allow passage of air than larger ones below? In my place the windows usually are placed one meter from floor level upwards and the height would usually would be 120 to 150 cm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaffermon (talk • contribs) 06:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

A solar chimney won't work as well at night, but it will still ventilate the space near the roof via the stack effect of the warmer air. Anything off to the side will work less efficiently in general and will be affected by breezes more easily; a solar chimney works best near the middle of the roof. You could also use a passive turbine ventilator that rotates in the wind and extracts more air than a simple vent. I think operable vents up high would be a nuisance to operate, but they could be contrived to take advantage of prevailing winds for cross-ventilation (as could any windows). Acroterion _(talk) 14:25, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

May I ask why you plan to put a 10 inch thick reinforced concrete roof on your house ? Are you expecting mortar attacks ? If not, I suggest a much lighter roof.

If you do stay with a thick roof, another way to handle things is to delay how long it takes for the solar heating to reach the interior. With thick enough insulation, you could get a 12-hour delay. By then (night) you may actually want the heat. If not, it's likely cool enough outside by then that some fans in the windows can cool it down nicely. StuRat (talk) 16:48, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again. Ten cm, not ten inch was what I meant. Sorry for the mistake. can a tin duct sticking out say two meters above the roof attract lightning when there is no special protection against it? I can guess that it would be more vulnerable than the roof itself because it is metal and it stands higher. Is there any great risk so as to avoid it altogether or reduce the height? There is no chance of buying a wind turbine as solar chimney and passive cooling are never resorted to in this part. Do they come ready-made or are they usually improvised? Jaffermon (talk) 17:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that would attract lightning. Why not add a lightning rod ? It can't cost much compared with the other modifications you plan. StuRat (talk) 12:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Solar chimneys are usually custom-made, and of substantial size. I'd think anything less than 20cm in diameter wouldn't move enough air to be worthwhile. Another suggestion would be to use a screening canopy above the roof - a light sunshade that supplies reflectivity and has enough space under it for air to circulate. It would need to be replaced periodically, but should cost less than lots of extra windows or vents. Acroterion _(talk) 15:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

job search alot of help needed!

i have a diploma in cabin crew from icm and a customer service college certificate, what other jobs can i apply for apart from airline jobs in kenya? pliz help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.202.215.71 (talk) 07:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

• Annoying answer: You can apply for any job that you like.
• Less annoying answer: The qualifications you hold will place you in a better position for roles in the area the qualifications specialise in, but a lot of roles (non-specialist fields) are equally impressed by provable evidence of an ability to learn/dedication to get a qualification/all the other good implications of having got qualifications as they are it being in their specific field. That isn't to say it is equivilent to a local-field qualification, but they won't necessarily be worthless. Most office-based firms taken on huge amounts of staff that have qualifications in non-related fields - not everybody does Business degrees but that doesn't mean that a History degree isn't going to improve a person's chances of getting a role in a business. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:40, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article CV can help a lot. Your CV can really open doors to jobs for you so it is worth putting effort into it. Show your CV to friends and listen to their honest first impressions because there is always something you can improve, especially if you are too modest about what you can do. People sometimes wonder whether to have their photograph on their CV. I think that is a good idea because it makes you less of a stranger to the employer. Of course your picture will show a confident well-dressed person who looks trustworthy! Cuddlyable3 (talk) 10:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Does your community or university have an employment centre? They may also be able to help. — QuantumEleven 11:10, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Another tip - I have no idea what "icm" is - maybe Institute of Commercial Management? (This may be a UK/US common-knowledge gap). Either way, your CV or resume should not assume that the reader is familiar with your short-hand or abbreviated versions of anything - spell out exactly what your certificate or degree is, and exactly where you got it. Nimur (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Billy Cotton

http://img197.imageshack.us/i/41990687.jpg/ Is this man here Billy Cotton, the BBC Controller? I heard he was an ex band leader? yay, nay :(. ?

Billy Cotton was a band leader. His son Bill Cotton was the BBC guy. I don't know which, if either, your photo is of. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 14:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Being too many years old and having seen Billy Cotton Snr. and Bill Cotton regularly on TV in different eras, I can tell you that photo is neither of them. Richard Avery (talk) 14:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Oh well just thought he looked familiar, thanks anyway :). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.71.131.230 (talk) 15:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Google (or enter on another search engine) "41990687.jpg", the title of that photo on the ImageShack page. When I googled it, I found links to Turkish blog and a Baltic "fotoalbum". Of course, neither of these may be the source of that photo, but they might be worth looking into. "Give it a twist, a flick of the wrist, that's what the showman said." —— Shakescene (talk) 18:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

A TinEye search turned up nothing either. I agree that it doesn't look like either of the Bill Cotton's. SteveBaker (talk) 05:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Citizen's arrest of a police constable

Have there ever been cases where a citizen's arrest of a police officer (especially an on-duty one) has occured? From the UK especially, but also anywhere else in the world, is this legal today? (don't worry, I'm not pinning one down right now, no legal advice needed) --145.100.196.49 (talk) 14:13, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know of it happening, but in the UK it would be legal. You can make an "any person" (you don't have to be a citizen) arrest if you know an indictable (or either-way) offence has taken place, you know or suspect that the person you are arresting did it and it is not reasonable for a constable to make the arrest. I'm fairly sure there is no exception when the offender is a constable. (If anyone is interested, a constable can arrest for any offence (including summary offences) and can arrest when they only suspect an offence has taken place - that is quite a bit broader than the conditions on any person arrests.) There are also provisions for anyone to arrest somebody who is "unlawfully at large" (eg. escaped prisoners) or who is disturbing or about to disturb the peace. --Tango (talk) 14:36, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I have a dim memory of someone who spotted a policeman parked illegally while they went in to get their dry cleaning and managed to prosecute them. I don't remember if they tried to make an arrest. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:39, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think parking illegally is an indictable offence, so such an arrest would be illegal. --Tango (talk) 16:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Well I guess the constable could try and argue they were there so could have arrested themselves. :-P Nil Einne (talk) 21:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

They could try, but I would argue that would be unreasonable! --Tango (talk) 22:59, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

See http://www.protectingyourself.co.uk/civil-powers-of-arrest.html for arrest powers in the UK.86.209.159.130 (talk) 15:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)DT

I think that site is wrong. Civilians cannot arrest in all the same situations a police officer can. I explained the difference above. Try this page instead. --Tango (talk) 16:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I have contacted that site to point out their error. --Tango (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I can hear Gomer Pyle shouting "Citizen's arr-ay-est!" at Barney Fife right now. There's a risk in making a citizen's arrest, beyond the risk of exposing yourself to physical danger - you could be sued for false arrest. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 16:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

And/or kidnapping (or forced detention, anyway). Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 21:40, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Or assault/battery. You are allowed to use reasonable force to make a lawful arrest, but if it turns out the arrest wasn't lawful that force could be illegal. --Tango (talk) 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

All of these items are good reasons not to make a citizen's arrest of an ordinary citizen unless there's a clear and present danger and you can do something to prevent that danger. Otherwise, let the police do their jobs. As far as arresting a cop? Good luck with that, you'll need it! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 22:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

If none of these answers are satisfactory - you can ask the police directly at Ask the police. Nanonic (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

chair design

chairs like this gives me creeps when I think of sitting in them. See those pits where neck would come in contact with the chair. They are greatly uncomfortable. I don't know what these supposed neck rests are called. Do they offer comfort for the neck and head? Is this a common feature to chair design? --Jaffermon (talk) 15:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Surely, given an average-sized person, the 'pits' are at about shoulder-blade level so that the neck and back of the head rest on the 'cushion' section above? Have you actually seen such a chair "in the flesh" (so to speak) and sat in one? If such chairs really were uncomfortable for many people, they would sell poorly and disappear from the market. (Sort of evolution by means of customer non-selection, when you think about it.) 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

WHat would bother me would be the plastic/vinyl/leather back. It's hard to beat an Aeron chair for comfort. SteveBaker (talk) 19:43, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Who is Martonas?

The speculations are many (Martin De Knijff, Guy Laliberté, even Mats Sundin), but does anyone know for sure? Entheta (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

In case anyone is wondering this refers to an anonymous player on Full Tilt Poker. There are various answers if you google it; I don't think anyone really knows, and it might be more than one person. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:12, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, at least one person would know. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Sea nation

Is there a nation, state, fleet, community or whatnot that are based entirely at sea and claim no other citizenship or statehood than their organization of boats at sea? -- Taxa (talk) 21:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Well there's the Principality of Sealand... TastyCakes (talk) 21:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

How about one that can move around rather than being anchored in the sea? -- Taxa (talk) 21:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Sea Gypsies83.100.250.79 (talk) 22:48, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

There are probably many nutjobs with houseboats that claim no citizenship (just as there are many nutjobs with land-based dwellings that claim no citizenship, etc). There are no such claims which are widely recognized. — Lomn 13:44, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Sea Org sounds like what you're looking for. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:03, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Motivational poster

For my English class I was assigned to make a motivational poster of a quote from Antigone. My quote is "The truth is always best." What is a good image to go with this? --70.247.248.29 (talk) 22:57, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

Superman always tells the truth. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 23:26, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

What? Superman's life is based on constant deceit. Algebraist 14:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

No it's not. He keeps his identity secret in order to protect others. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I was originally going to suggest Jesus, but not knowing the questioner's background, that might not work. Superman, being a fictional character, seems harmless enough. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:39, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

He lies about his identity, but for a good purpose. Which is why the quote is wrong to say the least... the truth is usually the best except in those few situations when a little deceit gets everyone a better outcome and the release of the truth is actually counter-productive. --98.217.14.211 (talk) 18:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.46 (talk) 23:31, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

"The truth" is a slippery and overrated concept. Superman does not lie. If asked directly who his secret identity is, he would probably answer with, "I won't tell you." That's truthfulness. As far as behavior in general, the best policy is not necessarily "honesty", it's "the lesser sin". If you deceive someone, and that deceit is necessary to save their life, then that deceit is the lesser sin, because the greater sin would be to let them die. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 18:34, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I think it depends on which Superman. The Clark Kent of Smallville tells blatant whoppers, repeatedly, even to the people he's closest to. Usually it's more or less to "protect" those people, but that motivation is not always terribly convincing, and I think it's not always meant to be. Clark's a good dude, but he has his weaknesses, moral ones, not just kryptonite.

By the way, I don't have a source, but I understand that the phrase honesty is the best policy is much misinterpreted. In Shakespeare's time, supposedly, policy meant cunning and craft. So the real meaning might be closer to Heinlein's formula that the best way to lie is to tell the exact truth, but to do so in such a way that no one will believe you. --Trovatore (talk) 23:07, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I think "honesty is the best policy" can be taken either way (or several), including telling the truth in a complete and non-devious way that instils the trust that benefits everyone in the long run. But four hundred years ago one meaning or connotation of "policy" was statecraft, political savvy or cunning. Touchstone in Act V of Shakepeare's As You Like It says to a rival in love, "I will deal in poison with thee, or in bastinado, or in steel; I will bandy with thee in faction; will o'er-run thee with policy; I will kill thee a hundred and fifty ways; therefore tremble and depart." —— Shakescene (talk) 08:17, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Spock didn't lie, either. "Spock, what are the odds against a royal fizzbin?" "I have never calculated them, sir." PhGustaf (talk) 19:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Spock would be another good icon. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 19:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

So would Dudley Do-Right. "On, King! On, you huskies!". Oops: wrong icon. PhGustaf (talk) 19:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

While I've never been a fan of Superman so can't say for sure, I find it hard to believe that Superman has never lied in one of the many comics, movies etc. Definitely it is unlikely in real life. The truth is it is exceedingly difficult to cover something like a secret identity particularly a secret identity as a superhero who saves the world, without lying, since it's very likely things will come up in everyday conversation which requires you to lie if you don't want to draw suspicion no matter how good you are at fudging. Superman is clearly a bad example. Nil Einne (talk) 20:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Lookie here, despite your claim Superman never lies, he did in fact tell an obvious lie in one of the movies [1]. It occurred to me when writing earlier someone must have asked Superman whether he was Superman however as there are many ways to fudge your way out of this e.g. "Are you nuts?"/"Don't be stupid" without actually denying it (i.e. a Non-denial denial) I didn't use it as an example. But in fact he didn't do just that and did in fact clearly deny it in one of the movies. Maybe you're going to try and claim he didn't lie because he's not Superman without his cape or something like that (as the blog mentions when discussing the multiple personalities theory), but I'm fairly confident that the vast majority of people won't agree with you (particularly if the blog writer is accurate in that when Superman said he never lies, he explains it as his perception of reality). I would suspect there are even clearer cut examples if we look at the wider field, e.g. if someone asks Clark Kent whether he was at the location where Superman was seen. (This is an even more blatant example since it's one thing to argue Clark Kent is not Superman without the cape, it's quite another to claim Clark Kent is not Clark Kent when he's Superman). Nil Einne (talk) 21:05, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Edit2: More evidence of Superman being a liar [2]. Okay that's more because of an ignorant writer then any real need on the part of Superman (although if you buy the Superman is deluded theory in which case you may say it supports it) but since it's there you can't ignore it if you argue Superman is not a liar... Meanwhile, this source [3] suggests the new movie effectively makes Superman into a liar by him disappearing for 5 years. I'm not sure how this is the case. If Superman had said he's never leave then some might argue he's a liar if he does leave but unless he was at least considering it as a possibility it's a bit of a grey area since he can't tell the future so was perhaps more guilty of making a stupid promise that there's no guarantee he can keep then explicitly lying. Nil Einne (talk) 21:23, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

We're not supposed to do your schoolwork for you, as this is a test of your own imagination. Humour is often effective, but a picture of Darwin punching God on the nose (or vice versa) might not go down very well with your teacher. How about a picture of your teacher with a halo round their head?--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:14, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

How about this? Adam Bishop (talk) 15:08, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Youse guys better be careful about those sarcastic answers, or a drive-by IP will take youse guys to ANI also. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 15:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Current news may be good, and this particular one won't make anyone mad (unless you happen to own an oil company....) --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:56, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

It makes me mad, because I'm not an environmentalist and to my mind it's the cartoonist who has his head stuck in the sand, or perhaps up Al Gore's bottom. Mind you, I'm only a number. 213.122.35.3 (talk) 17:32, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

How about the famous photo from the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989? 213.122.35.3 (talk) 18:27, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

¶ If you just want a hint to get your imagination or memory started, that's fine. But once thinking you should take those hints and come up with your own ideas, most likely throwing out the original suggestions as unnecessary and irrelevant. (For example, if you had to come up with a new fruit salad, and someone here suggested oranges and bananas, while someone else suggested lemons and pears, ideally they'd get you thinking until you came up with an original idea for mangoes, blackcurrants and kiwi fruit.) However, if you do incorporate anything suggested here, you should follow the maxim of the poster itself and note that you did ask for ideas on Wikipedia. It's only fair to other students who've been given the same project. In that spirit, my hints would be that many people would recognize honesty as portrayed by George Washington ("Father, I cannot tell a lie", in an apocryphal, and probably false, anecdote in an old children's history book by Parson Weems) and Benjamin Franklin's maxim in Poor Richard's Almanack that "Honesty is the best policy." —— Shakescene (talk) 21:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

You could choose to show the contrasting thing, an easily recognisable and noted liar. Ideally (to really make your point) you'd show them at the point where their lies come back to haunt them. A photo of a recognisable financial fraudster in prison garb, or of a disgraced politician resigning, or being taken away by the cops. A picture of Richard Nixon resigning, perhaps? I'd steer clear of recent politicians, or of figures like Hitler or Stalin, as you run the risk someone will mistake your ironic use of them, and think you're really saying "Hitler/Stalin was right all along". -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 21:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

I underlined the quote in the fragment below, taken from the text by Sophocles. The context shows that it means truth as opposed to a soothing "white" lie. One might illustrate this by a picture of a doctor pointing out to a patient the cancer showing on the patient's X-ray picture.

MESSENGER Dear lady, I will witness of what I saw, and will leave no word of the truth untold. Why, indeed, should I soothe thee with words in which must presently be found false? Truth is ever best.-I attended thy lord as his guide.. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:36, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Rod Blagojevich. Tempshill (talk) 00:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

You might want to take at look at this for ideas. :) Royor (talk) 00:18, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

I thought a cat was obligatory?..hotclaws 17:22, 13 September 2009 (UTC)