Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 September 28

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Editing pages

If i edit a page in wikipeidiea does it change instantly or does it have to be checked by an admin or somthing like that ?

Instantly. 69.198.235.234 00:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it doesnt change instantly, proof?, edit an article then you should see your change visbale after you save it, now lets try deleting cookies, temp internet files and cache, now open that article once more...SURPRISE ! --RedStaR 00:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you talking about?  --Lambiam^Talk 04:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• If anything, deleting all those files should give you the most recent version of an article. Maybe someone undid the changes you made? Try Wikipedia:Tutorial and see if they meet the basic requirements. -- Mgm|^(talk) 08:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Rjindael specification

Can someone find the AES technical specification and link it? I've seen a few PDFs but they're too abstract to implement --froth^{T C} 00:54, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, the spec is also a PDF; I hope it's not too abstract: FIPS 197, Advanced Encryption Standard (AES). And there are various open-source implementations you can look at if you're stuck with something.  --Lambiam^Talk 04:25, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

What would a building designed by birds look like?

Any ideas? Birds have a completely different spacial awareness to us. I mean, like in every room, the walls and ceilings could be used as useful space to a sentient flying creature. If you look at parrots now, they don't mind climbing up and hanging upside down at all. Could have a skyscraper with an entrance to each floor on each floor too. Has anyone ever tried to think like a bird and drawn up any stuff?

+---+
!Ω Ω!
!   !
!Ω Ω!
+-=-+

--froth^{T C} 01:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no doubt that the people on Planet of the Birds are asking the very same question about us. Яussiaп F 01:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

For some reason, the image just popped into my head of hen birds flying to work, having left their eggs at 'daycare incubator facilities'. Rows and rows of eggs stacked floor-to-ceiling in their own individual temperature-regulated compartments, being monitored by machines and turned every so often - in a huge warehouse-type building, a similar size to the one in the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark. --Kurt Shaped Box 01:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I doubt they would have external entrances to each room. Birds advanced enough to make skyscrapers would most certainly have a complex social structure equal to our own, and I imagine concepts such as "lobbies" and "reception desks" would be part of their culture as well. I can imagine a multi-tier system of building construction, one in which tall buildings are constructed in segments, each relatively independant of its neighbouring parts. One must also consider air and wind-tunnel management, which I imagine is an integral part of bird transportation planning.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  01:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Why in god's name would birds want create skyscrapers? Birds and glass are not exactly the best of friends. Chris 03:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

For some reason when I read that description, the image just popped into my head of a Brave New World-esque incubation line in which eggs as they slowly go down the conveyer belt are heated and cooled to get used to different environments, dropped and caught so they fly at an earlier age, and bathed in radiation to make sure that the lower birds (pigeons for example) aren't smart enough to throw off the eagle government --froth^{T C} 03:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

For the masters of this brave new avian world, I'd look towards the parrots or the corvids. They already have a huge head-start in terms of intelligence on other species. It's often the case that the pet/owner dynamic is completely reversed with captive birds from these two families - i.e. the bird trains the owner to behave how it wants the owner to behave. I used to have a lovebird - even a little bird like that managed to have me wrapped around her little finger (claw?). Screech? I'd pay her attention. Chew my books and magazines? I'd pay her attention. Bite me when she was on my shoulder? That was a sign she was tired and wanted me to put her back into her cage to take a nap. Rear up and hiss at me? I'd go away and leave her alone. Pull a funny face and cock her head when I was eating? She wanted to try some of whatever I was having. --Kurt Shaped Box 12:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I would definitely see a doctor about this bird fixation you seem to have. Youre not related to Alfred Hitchcock are you?--Light current 01:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Imagine bird furniture shaped like human fingers, and skyscrapers with only a handicapped elevator, and a hole in the wall on each floor for everyone else.Edison 05:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• The question is moot. Without fingers it's nearly impossible to design a building. Birds can't physically draw it on paper or draw it on a computer. _ Mgm|^(talk) 07:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Never seen the manual dexterity displayed by most species of parrot? Their feet can be used like hands (with two opposable 'thumbs'). A macaw could certainly hold a pen - and I don't suppose that there's any physical reason why it couldn't write/draw if it had the inclination/intellect to do so. --Kurt Shaped Box 11:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to spoil the fun by stating the obvious, but see nest.--Shantavira 08:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

If ever there were a funny vandalism for BJAODN it would be changing nest into an article about a bird city --froth^{T C} 16:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like quite an uncyclopedic behaviour... 惑乱 分からん 19:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ironic since this is today's featured article --froth^{T C} 19:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Actors and actresses 1990

How many actors and actresses who were born in 1990 are American? (P.S.: Can give me a list of actors and actresses? Please.)

=Actors and actresses 1990 2=

How may actors and actresses who were born in 1990 are Canadians?

Many people believe they are actors but are not, many people work as actors but don't believe t

Aaren't Canadians American? Or did yo mean USian? DirkvdM 06:18, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point! Upon closer examination, it turns out that Canada and US&A are, in fact, different provinces of the same country. Wow! you learn something new every day! I believe US&A is colloquially referred to as 'the ghetto of Canada', the slum section. Chris 11:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I actually once met a Canadian who got really pissed of when I said somthing like that because he didn't get the pun and interpreted 'America' as the USA. He even thought that man people in the world regard Canada as one of the United States. Oh, and I like the term US&A. The way the US regard and treat their 'backyard' that would indeed be appropriate. DirkvdM 06:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Music Artist

Yesterday I heard this name on the radio, and I think I have heard it before, but I'm not sure what group he is from- the name is "Archie Rein". If anyone knows I'd appreciate it. Thanks. :)

Im going to regret asking this

Why are birds (especially seabirds) such a popular topic on WP ref desks?--Light current 02:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Lots of bird spotters? But then we'd have a lot of questions about trains as well...Ziggurat 03:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

We may even get a camel spotter to stop in. Dismas|^(talk) 03:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

How about Cameleopard spotters? Can a Cameleopard change its spots?Edison 05:19, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

What can I say, It's just a lot easier for editors to wing it when we're talking about birds. --AstoVidatu 03:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

And it's all smoke and mirrors when it comes to the topic of the speed of light --froth^{T C} 03:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I thinks it's cos we is so gullible. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 03:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Kurt Shaped Box started it. Don't worry, he's on the wikihit list. (Don't tell him about it, because he could edit his name out.) — X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve)05:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

We are training the 'Killer Attack Gulls' as we speak... --Zeizmic 19:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Kurt actually has a seagull hobby/habit. Then, after he posted many questions about them, others started asking sea bird questions as a joke. StuRat 20:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well can anyone think if a funnier animal to talk about like a Orang Utan for instance--Light current 22:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Can seagulls whistle? Can one train a seagull to whistle through his pecker?

music

looking for some misogynist, objectifying music of the style of Benny Benassi (e.g. Satisfaction, Who's your daddy) any suggestions? Jasbutal 02:45, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Elvis's A Little Less Conversation maybe? "Close your mouth and open up your heart and baby satisfy me" Ziggurat 03:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

"Lemon Song" by Led Zeppelin maybe? "Squeeze me baby, till the juice runs down my leg, / The way you squeeze my lemon, / I..Im gonna fall right out of bed, yeah." Dismas|^(talk) 03:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

sorry, I should have said by style I meant that freaky electronica beat he's got. I love it, and the themes of the songs are just added bonuses. Jasbutal 03:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe there's a remix of Shel Silverstein's old chestnut 'Put Another Log On The Fire' somewhere out there.---Sluzzelin 09:14, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Call me a romantic, but good old objectification is good in itself. I don't need any misogynism involved... @_@ 惑乱 分からん 10:04, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

they come hand in hand according to some. but whichever, Ineed more of that good beat! Jasbutal 13:01, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Benny Benassi's stuff is basically hard style for the masses. I'm not sure if "hard style booty" is considered a genre yet, so check out related genres like booty house and acid booty. Ishkur's guide  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:04, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

How about checking here? It's quite good at expanding on a music style. 82.2.147.190 23:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

music 2

If anyone sees a feminist rant of disgust to the music video for Benny Benassi's video for "Who's Your Daddy" http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3418263437173679038&q=who%27s+your+daddy or for other such videos, please post a link! Jasbutal 04:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Music 3

What's the theme to the music video for "Steady as She Goes"?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8894686947364844168&q=steady+as+she+goes

is it the deceptive, hollow big-business (ostensibly society as a whole) imposing itself on some form of innocence? (better add a disclaimer, this ain't hw) Jasbutal 04:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

The guy is just looking for a girl man. Don't think so hard. — X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve)05:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

False. These music videos are made by highly-skilled and well-paid artistic directors and have aesthetic value that is meant to be coupled with the lyrics. Jasbutal 05:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought the idea was that the video should have no connection with the lyrics, so that it looks as though the lyrics had some deeper hidden meaning when in fact they are completely vacuous.--Shantavira 08:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

ok fine, let's take your assumption as correct. What do you think is the meaning of the video? Or do you think it is just vice versa and the video is equally vacuous? Jasbutal 12:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see the video you posted (two were made for the song), but I saw the one on MTV in which the band members are playing the song while in a soap box derby. Tell me the poetic genius behind that. — X [Mac Davis] (SUPERDESK|Help me improve)01:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of seabirds...

There were some birds I noticed when I was in the Navy off the Pacific coast of Panama. Their basic body type was similar to a seagull but much larger - about the size of a U.S. pelican. They had a distinctive blue ring on the skin surrounding their eyes and ate a lot of flying fish. I seem to recall most of their plumage was gray. Haven't been able to identify them through Audubon guides in the States. Anyone know what these are? Durova 09:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

No idea whether this is it, but the Anhinga looks like it has blue rings around its eyes on this picture, it belongs to the order Pelecaniformes, and it can be seen in Panama.---Sluzzelin 10:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

This species didn't have to dry out its wings after it landed. They rode the air currents of our ship hundreds of miles out at sea. The body shape really resembled a seagull. I mentioned pelicans only to give an idea of how much larger than seagulls they are. Thanks for the guess. We'll keep trying. Durova 15:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• Albatros? *sigh* I know the jokes are gonna storm on in(hotclaws**== 21:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC))

Yup, I'd say some type of albatross too. --Kurt Shaped Box 21:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

That seems about right. I read through all the species and can't figure out which one. Durova 22:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, got a look at another image and I think we have a winner: the Short-tailed Albatross. And to think the things were nearly extinct 50 years ago... :) Durova 06:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The Deletion of Good Burger 2

Why are you all deleting the article about Good Burger 2?

Wikipedia articles need evidence. There's no evidence for this film, so the article should be deleted. If you don't want it deleted, provide evidence. Middenface 13:37, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

That could be a link to an imdb page saying it is definitely in production, or a press release from the company, or something like that. Skittle 13:39, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Found this on imdb but I'm not registered so I can't read it --froth^{T C} 16:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked it out. The fans there were rejoicing because they saw the sequel "confirmed" by Wikipedia! IMDB does not have anything official for GB2. Clarityfiend 18:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh, sorry :) --froth^{T C} 19:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Manuel Mijares

In the 1980s, 1990s and the 2000s, do you remember when Manuel Mijares sang Soldado del Amor(The Love Soldier), Para Amarnos Mas(Loving Each Other More) and Con un Nudo en la Garganta(With a Frog in the Throat)? Do you also remember the telenovela titled Rebeca (telenovela)(Rebecca) when he sang the theme song to the telenovela?

No -- SGBailey 23:33, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

sati

write a few lines on the inhuman custom of sati.

• No thanks. It's your homework, not mine. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Why dont you look at the link and write your own lines? Anyway, who said it was inhuman? Seems very human to me--Light current 15:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I assume he's a student of a very orthodox institution.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  05:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Sati refers to :

• mindfulness (not inhuman)
• Sati (practice), the immolation of a widow on her husband's pyre. It's human as men do it, and inhuman as other men wish they wouldn't (me too). Shall that practice disappear together with war, bullfight, rape, lies, &c. ? Circus games and slavery slowly belong to the past. Men are too human to be too wise (any smiley conveying a Buddha mind ?) -- DLL ^{.. T} 20:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the questioner meant to say inhumane ?--Light current 20:57, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

thinkpad microphone

I was trying to record the music out of Fl0w with Audacity and apparently I had it set up to mix the wav output with the mic input because halfway though the track someone knocked on my door and the audio spiked.. excited, I closed audacity and opened windows sound recorder. It turns out that somewhere on my laptop I've got a very high quality microphone that perfectly picks up my voice (audio sample) even if I'm sitting up in comforable laptop-using position. Does anyone else have a t60 thinkpad or know where the microphone is on this thing? --froth^{T C} 17:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I have another ThinkPad, and it's in between the speakers on the top, right below the display screen. There isn't much to see, just two small slits. StuRat 19:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I have two slits next to the Fn key could that be it? --froth^{T C} 01:37, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Could be. Put your thumb over it and try to record something, to see if it sounds muffled. That should tell you if it is. StuRat 16:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not muffled at all. Also wherever the sound is coming from (except directly below and behind) it sounds the same --froth^{T C} 02:48, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm stumped then. StuRat 18:34, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

supermans heat vision

i recently read and saw some comics and episodes of smallville where supermans heat vision can have a concussive effect and knock people backwards is this part of the cannon because i thought they acted like lasers and could just heat or cut things? fred

If I had a cannon, it would definitely have a concussive effect. Not sure about canon though. Clarityfiend 18:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Pachelbel's Canon has knocked out a multitude of people.

It's fictional, they can write it into the script so that the heat vision sprouts flowers if they want. The comic book canon is very different from the television show canon. As another example, in the X-Men comic books, Storm's eyes are blue, in the movies they're brown. Anything can be changed, it all depends on how much the fans will warm up (pun intended) to the new idea. The article on canon should help. Dismas|^(talk) 17:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

See steam explosion --Serie 20:54, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Test Card F

Is it just me, or did the BBC Test Card F scare the hell out of anyone else? That clown was creepy... Benbread 17:52, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Have you been watching too much Life on Mars? DJ Clayworth 18:12, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Suprisingly no - I'm just remembering back to my younger years, maybe that card takes me back to the nostaligic time of getting up early to watch Ceefax before real TV started. Benbread 18:32, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

DJ, You might want to fix that link, as it doesn't quite lead to where you want it to  :-). However, I do want to thank you for that connection, and also Benbread for the question - I watched LoM on BBC-America, but didn't realize that the young girl and clown were anything more than a young girl and a clown. --LarryMac 19:55, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah yes. Done. DJ Clayworth 18:08, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Copyright

Hey, I just need to clear something up; can anyone copy an article or parts of an article from wikipedia, as long as they give wikipedia credit for the information? Musli Miester 21:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Only if you comply with the GFDL. It offers a number of freedoms, but it does have specific requirements. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 23:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Trivia Subpage

Hello, I have just added a subpage about trivia at User:Reywas92/Trivia. Please take a look at it and fix any errors I made in it or delete any non-factual info. If you have time, please link ([[ ]]) a few lines of it as it is too long to do all myself. Thank you very much, Reywas92^Talk 21:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sheesh, make your own research. I barely skimmed through all that, so I just say that I'm skeptical about the "hula hoop illegal in Finland" claim. 惑乱 分からん 22:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I took a look through it. There are several that are just not true. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I never said to read it all, just take a quick look. Which aren't true? Reywas92^Talk 19:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

The origin of the name Jeep is disputed. John Sedgwick could use another brack... Clarityfiend 23:59, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

"Amish men grow men after they get married" ? Well, if they have sons I suppose they do. :-) StuRat 06:01, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've done a few see the differences. Most of those could be checked on Wikipedia. The bridge one may have a earlier date of 1831 in Manchester, England. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 08:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Added a bracket to Sedgewick, Amish men grow men corrected to beards. What does tin-foil hat have to do with the owl on a dollar bill? Thanks CambridgeBayWeather!! Reywas92^Talk 14:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The foil hat was in reference to all the other so called Freemasonry symbols that are on the other bill. In other words if you believe all that stuff you probably watch out for the Black helicopters and wear your foil hat. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 08:23, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The Jeep item is most certainly wrong. The term "jeep" had been in use years before the vehicle was even conceived. Dismas|^(talk) 09:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

The term was in use before the US Army had a General Purpose vehicle ? When was this and what did it mean then ? StuRat 18:01, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I started itemising some of the errors and nonsense on this page, but I've given up. Carry on if it makes you happy, but please don't impose that worthless tripe on us. ColinFine 23:08, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

CNN

I don't have cable (or any television for that matter) so I don't know the answer to this question: Would you say that CNN is more liberal-slanted or conservative slanted? Thanks Duomillia 22:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems neutral to me. StuRat 23:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems horribly slanted in either direction, depending on the mood at the time and which point of view they think will get the larger reaction. It seems to side with the administration more often than not though, and generally sensationalizes everything like crazy, as with the other news channels. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 23:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It still seems a lot better than Fox News, though. Many major news companies are sensationalist, without necessarily showing a bias in their sensationalism... 惑乱 分からん 00:00, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

It's slanted toward selling viewers eyeballs to advertisers. Everything else is secondary. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

CNN is more biased towards the HeadOn party. Pacific Coast Highway ^{{blah • Spinach crisis '06! • WP:NYCS}} 01:16, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Apply directly to the forehead! --Maxamegalon2000 01:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

CNN headline news is of course neutral, but the talk show hosts seem to mostly be liberal --froth^{T C} 01:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Netural is a relative term. The way in which they sensationalize stories, elaborate on only specific ones, etc. is all subject to bias. Honestly, I can't stand TV news, especially that from America. Go go internet. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 05:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Jon Stewart has a very interesting take on CNN, and it's quite true too. He calls CNN the network of fear mongering.

Some liberals see some correspondents as very deferential toward and fawning over the Bush administration. Other correspondents freely criticize the same administration. CNN is probably less liberal than Salon or Air America Radio and more liberal than Fox. Edison 06:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Adolf Hitler is more liberal than Fox. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Which CNN? CNN domestic (i.e. the original United States version]] has the same liberal bias as the rest of the MSM. But CNN International is so far off the charts they make CNN domestic look like it's run by Donald Rumsfeld. --Aaron 22:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

CNN, like all American media, is more conservative than almost any anywhere else in the western world, Fox being nothing but the radical right's PR organisation. As a rule they are quite sensationalist, but whilst some commentators like Anderson Cooper seem fairly moderate, others, like Nancy Grace seem to be lost looking for the Fox lobby. --Mnemeson 23:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

This partly reflects (and to some extent causes) the terms of political debate in the United States are skewed way to the right of what they are in the rest of the western world (to generalize greatly). Bill Clinton, on many issues, would be in the mainstream of conservative opinion in much of Europe. --Robert Merkel 02:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

As to CNN domestic (and 24-hour cable news more generally), there are plenty of criticisms of it that don't relate to its political slant. There's Missing white woman syndrome, for instance, and its "video game" coverage of wars. I happened to be in the United States as the Israelis prepared to attack Hezbollah, and CNN's promotional spots for its coverage were more like that of an ad for Top Gun 2 than sober, sensible coverage of a war where people not unlike you and I were going to die in large numbers. --Robert Merkel

American football: no defensive forward passes?

Our articles Forward pass and Lateral pass claim that if the defense gains possession of the football, they may not make a forward pass. What's the theoretical justification for this rule? And (this borders on an editorial concern, but I'll ask it here anyway) do we have a reference? Melchoir 23:41, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Well the defense would not have any eligible receivers for one. Plus where would the line of scrimmage be that the new quarterback could not cross? Nowimnthing 00:22, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Er... why wouldn't there be eligible receivers? As for the line of scrimmage, you could always use the old one, or even the spot of the turnover. Melchoir 00:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

And what would happen if the defensive forward pass was incomplete? --Maxamegalon2000 01:35, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh! I don't know, the return team gets the ball back at the spot of the turnover? Melchoir 01:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

When football branched off from rugby, no forward passing was allowed. The forward pass was introduced in the first decade of the 1900s to open up the game. They didn't want to change the fundamentals of the game, so the forward pass was only allowed once per play and behind the line of scrimmage. (Originally, there were other restrictions as well.) It's not so much that defensive players were disallowed from passing but rather than only the offense was allowed to do so. -- Mwalcoff 02:52, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

In the history of the sport, didn't some coaches find there was no specific rule against the forward pass, use it to win a lot of games, then see it outlawed when the conference rule makers got together after the season, then see it re-legalized later because it made the game more exciting? What other plays did this happen for?Edison 06:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

See, my mentality -- and this comes from a queer mix of math, physics, and game design -- is that when something isn't disallowed, that means it's allowed. A lot of fun in football comes from plays that defy common sense: fake punts and field goals, running backs throwing touchdown passes, blocked extra points being returned for two points. You could easily have rules that say that fourth down is special, that only the quarterback can throw, that only the offense can go for two after a touchdown; but those rules would make the game less rich. Melchoir 17:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

If no passes are allowed, then why are they always slapping each other on the butt ? :-) StuRat 16:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No forward passes. DJ Clayworth 18:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, most people would consider a slap on the butt to be a rather forward pass, wouldn't they ? :-) StuRat 19:43, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but most people would also consider it offensive. Melchoir 20:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but others would admire a nice tight end. :-) StuRat 22:31, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Although some might prefer a wide receiver.  :) User:Zoe|(talk) 22:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I guess that would only be if the tight end can rack up the yardage and score often. —Mike 22:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)