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August 6

What is a cat??

When we first learn the meaning of the word cat, we learn a small, domestic animal that purrs, drinks milk, and chases mice. But as we get older, we learn that cat means large, wild animal like a lion or tiger. It's a surprise that these 2 definitions of the word co-exist without confusion. Georgia guy (talk) 00:01, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

People who saw a tiger prowling around and warned "there is a cat" failed to alarm others and got eaten by the cat. As the result of an evolutionary process, people now avoid uses that can cause such confusion. --Lambiam 00:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All languages offer the possibility of ambiguity:

“It's unpleasantly like being drunk."

"What's so unpleasant about being drunk?"

"You ask a glass of water.”

Douglas Adams The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

Successful communication generally involves recognising the potential for misunderstanding, and avoiding it when it matters. If a large and dangerous stripy felid is lurking around, call it a tiger... AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, "cat" in its less-specific meaning can refer to any of the Felidae, large or small. It's "big cat" which means "large, wild animal like a lion or tiger". AnonMoos (talk) 02:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our Kitty Fisher and Pussy Simpkins were big cats, from Bristol. They used to beat up the little Cornish cats when we moved there. DuncanHill (talk) 11:11, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A big pair of Bristols? —Tamfang (talk) 16:05, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say it really only has that meaning in certain specific contexts (e.g. in scientific or ecological discussions). In ordinary conversation, without qualification, it'd invariably be interpreted as referring to the domestic cat. If I told someone "I saw a cat yesterday" and it turned out that I'd seen a tiger in a zoo, they'd think I was being deliberately obtuse. Proteus (Talk) 11:55, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is this accepted grammar?

I just heard an American on radio tell me that "The first Star Wars films were based off of early science fiction stories". I've heard similar usage from other Americans. I'm Australian. My English teachers would have put big red marks through that, and told me to write "based on". I can accept that language varies around the world, but wondered if this really is standard usage in the US. (And Canada?) HiLo48 (talk) 03:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a Canadian, I can say it sounds fine to me. Merriam Webster says "since this form is newer, it may seem less formal and less correct to some readers." Clarityfiend (talk) 03:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At one point, somebody did a mass edit changing occurrences of "based off" to "based on" ... but they didn't take into account the idiom "based off of", so following the edit, there were a bunch of occurrences of "based on of". As a North American, I will concur that "based off" and "based off of" both sound quite normal ... but Google Books Ngram Viewer seems to deny the existence of "based off" or "based off of". Other sources, such as "archive.org", "scholar.google.com", and "Chronicling America" admit at most to "based off" (or "based off of") representing a small fraction of the number of occurrences of "based on". Wiktionary admits to this as "U.S." phrasing, but flags it (at least in some cases) as "informal". Fabrickator (talk) 05:08, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds slangy. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:53, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's English as She Is Spoke, eh. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A well known British phrase is "That bloke off the telly". Alansplodge (talk) 08:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which reminds me of "[character] from [fiction]" which I would use only if the character is imported to some other project. —Tamfang (talk) 00:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly in common usage on this project. I know I've heard this in NA English, but I don't think I've seen it in writing with much frequency. I wouldn't mark it incorrect on a paper I was grading. Folly Mox (talk) 09:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I work in an Australian high school. Must ask an English teacher their views. HiLo48 (talk) 10:20, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This song debuted in 1967. The title was later changed, but the lyrics continued as before. [1] 91.234.214.10 (talk) 10:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds American, and probably informal American, to my British ears. DuncanHill (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is one thing to use off of and another to use it specifically as the complement of a phrasal verb based on base, which Wiktionary labels as American English. The strange thing is that this ignores the metaphor of using something as a base, a foundation you can build on. At least to me, this is still a live metaphor, and so is something is said to be "based off of" something, its sounds to me as if it is off base. Would you want to live in a house that was built off of its foundation? --Lambiam 12:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's part of my concern with the term. It not logical to say based off of. I know we can't demand that language be logical, but based on is more sensible, and more efficient. How did "off of" ever become part of American English anyway? HiLo48 (talk) 23:35, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That last is a different meaning of based. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:36, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"To base X on Y" means "to use Y as a base for X". One use of the phrasal verb is literal and the other is metaphorical, so indeed one expects these uses to have different meanings: a literal one and a figurative one. --Lambiam 22:15, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) In this song (which mentions the Union Jack) once again the title betrays the lyrics [2]. 91.234.214.10 (talk) 12:40, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Based off of X" is pretty standard in Canada now. "Based off X" is not common and would sound odd to me. "Based on X" is still common, particularly in commercial use, such as "Based on the book by..." Matt Deres (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the point of the "of" in "Based off of X". A bit like "Um"? HiLo48 (talk) 23:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Based off of... is a bit redundant, but I wouldn't say grammatically incorrect, just less common than based on. Personally if I ever use it, I just say "based on X", but they appear to be somewhat interchangeable. I've seen some theories that "based on" and "based off [of]" suggest different degrees of rigidity to the source of whatever was used; "based on" is more true to the original, while "based off [of]" implies a story or work was sort of a starting point for further research into a subject, but this is mostly just conjecture. Can't find anything supporting it etymologically. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 02:48, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yesterday, after having participated in this thread, I heard an NA English speaker on the internet say the phrase "learn off of" in place of the more common "learn from". So it seems the "... off of" construction may have additional flexibility, at least in the Southeastern US topolect the speaker was using. Folly Mox (talk) 08:04, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm American, and those who say "based off of" are invited to get off my lawn. I have equal distaste for "We're based out of Miami." (Why, so am I, about as far out of Miami as you can get!) —Tamfang (talk) 00:52, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. While I can accept idiomatic language, it becomes problematic when it says pretty much the opposite of what is meant. HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Are you "entitled" to make such a remark? :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

well, I am old enough for hypothetical grandchildren, if that's what you mean. —Tamfang (talk) 02:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the new meaning of the word "entitled". It now refers to someone who acts as if they are entitled without actually being entitled. It used to simply mean someone who was actually entitled. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, I don't encounter entitled in the new sense with an object (entitled to something). —Tamfang (talk) 16:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a few I found: [3], [4], [5], [6]. (I expect you to come back and say that "entitled brats feel they're entitled to stuff" is an example of two meanings of the same word being used in close contact, but they're still different. I agree in advance. Mostly.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:32, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]