Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 1
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August 1
[edit]British passport languages
[edit]I could find only the first two pages of the British passport, but I can't find specimens of all other pages and so I have some questions:
1) What do "the Scottish Gaelic and Welsh sections of passport" mean? How do they look like? When did they firstly appear and how were they changed throughout passport design revisions (it was several times as I know)?
2) Is it possible to write your own name in the Gaelic and Welsh forms which are different from the English ones? E.g. Pàdraig MacGriogair instead of Patrick McGregor.
3) Is it possible to print special accents (acute, grave, circumflex) in the Gaelic and Welsh sections? Is it possible in the English section too (for example in French or German names)?
4) Is something else written in the passport, in its last pages? I've found this, but I don't know where exactly it's located in the passport. Is there Welsh and Gaelic versions of it?
And well, it would be great if someone provides scans/specimens of the ALL pages with any text and uploads it to Wikimedia.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 01:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, a British Passport is all in English, with one photo on the last page, and on that page everything is written in English and French. The rest of the passport has information about the traveller, which is written in various languages from the EU, but only in small print, with numbers indicating which of the bits in English refer to whichever in said various languages. Also, it is not a British Passport, it is an EU passport (until next year when we finally get back to running our own finances). KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:39, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just as a point of order (as the image linked by the OP demonstrates), a British passport is traditionally not all in English, several pages are - or have been - in English and French for many many years. The OP is quoting from our British passport article re: the inclusion of Welsh and Scottish Gaelic. This specific claim in the article is not clearly sourced and the paragraph could be read as stating that Welsh and Gaelic have been included since 1998 (the reference to 1998 does not appear to contain information that supports any of the details in this paragraph. My last passport (now out of date) was issued in 2000 and I've just checked and it does not contain any Welsh or Gaelic. It does contain all the official languages of the EU (as it was in 2000)(including Irish) on certain pages. This press release from the archived site of the UK Passport Service [1] indicates the change was to be brought in from Autumn 2005. Welsh and Gaelic appear on those pages where
previosuly,previously all the EU languages were included - i.e. the inside title page and the page where it translates the English and French terms used on the Personal Details page into the other EU languages - but not on the Personal Details page(s) which is the section imaged in the OP's first link. - With regard to Gaelic and Welsh forms, people don't typically have more than one legal name. Generally if a Welsh person is called, say Ieuan Wyn Jones he's called Ieuan whether speaking or writing in English or Welsh. I'm aware that some Gaelic speakers use an Anglophone and a Gaelic version of their names, but I believe one will be the legal name and one used for other purposes - e.g. if they are a Gaelic writer (see Sorley MacLean [2] for example). As this document [3] from the Gov.uk site indicates, the name on the passport will normally be the name on the birth certificate unless the bearer has changed his name and can demonstrate they use the new name "for all purposes". The document references that people with Irish names may have an Irish name on the birth certificate but be known by the English translation. (I presume this is common enough the the Passport Service to provide guidance on this. In my own limited experience it's the other way round - English name legally but Irish name used). In this event, the passport will still be in the name on the birth certificate, but an "also known as" line will be added to the passport which is a standard practice where people have one name legally and another professionally (e.g. entertainers or professional women who keep their maiden name for work purposes). Valiantis (talk) 00:49, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added the above reference to the date Welsh and Gaelic were added to the article. Valiantis (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oops, misread KageTora's post where he did mention the inclusion of French. However, it's worth pointing out that it's not a European Union passport. It's a British passport, issued by HM Government. The European Union does not issue passports although all EU countries agreed to a degree of standardisation of the design of their passports. Valiantis (talk) 01:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, that struck me as a very bizarre, Daily Mail-esque claim... -Elmer Clark (talk) 16:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oops, misread KageTora's post where he did mention the inclusion of French. However, it's worth pointing out that it's not a European Union passport. It's a British passport, issued by HM Government. The European Union does not issue passports although all EU countries agreed to a degree of standardisation of the design of their passports. Valiantis (talk) 01:16, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've added the above reference to the date Welsh and Gaelic were added to the article. Valiantis (talk) 01:07, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- Just as a point of order (as the image linked by the OP demonstrates), a British passport is traditionally not all in English, several pages are - or have been - in English and French for many many years. The OP is quoting from our British passport article re: the inclusion of Welsh and Scottish Gaelic. This specific claim in the article is not clearly sourced and the paragraph could be read as stating that Welsh and Gaelic have been included since 1998 (the reference to 1998 does not appear to contain information that supports any of the details in this paragraph. My last passport (now out of date) was issued in 2000 and I've just checked and it does not contain any Welsh or Gaelic. It does contain all the official languages of the EU (as it was in 2000)(including Irish) on certain pages. This press release from the archived site of the UK Passport Service [1] indicates the change was to be brought in from Autumn 2005. Welsh and Gaelic appear on those pages where
Thanks all, especially Valiantis. As I understand a typical British passport contains: 1) the burgundy cover in English, 2) the passport note (Her Britannic Majesty's Secretary of State...) in English on the inside cover, 3) the passport title in English printed with a large font and in all other EU languages (including Welsh and Gaelic) with a smaller font, 4) the two main information pages partly in English and partly in French, 5) 32 (or 48) plain counterfeit-proof pages with only page numbers printed on them; these are for visas and stamps, 6) and finally the notes on the last page and emergencies on the back inside cover. Did I something miss?
But still I've got some questions to clear: 1) KageTora, you said there's "one photo on the last page"; did you mean the second information page or there's indeed an additional photo in the last page? 2) Valiantis, you said about "the page where it translates the English and French terms used on the Personal Details page into the other EU languages"; how does this page look like and where this is located? Is it like "surname-nom-Familienname-apellido-cognome-nazwisko..." etc.? 3) Is this still possible to print diacritics in names? How will the names of Jörg Müller or Jiří Dvořák or Pàdraig MacDhòmhnaill be printed?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:00, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- PRADO has several images here, mainly of the various security features, but also (incidentally) of the way different languages are treated. Gabbe (talk) 07:48, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- I can't see a link to the page with the translation of surname, first name, place of birth etc. in that useful link Gabbe posted. In my old passport it's about page 4 or 5, before the blank pages for Visas. (I'm not at home now so can't check the exact page number). The "notes" page is next to it in my defunct passport, but as per your previous post the "notes" page is now next to the "emergency contact" page at the back. The page is set out very much as you suggest. Each item is numbered to match the number of a field on the personal details page thus Surname (1), Given names (2) etc is listed as 1) Surname / nom / Familienname [...] 2) Given names / Prénoms etc.. Perhaps this page is no longer included as the number of official EU languages has increased massively since 2000.
- The document I linked to previously [[4] indicates how diacritics and special characters are treated. The passport will only show letters of the English alphabet, hyphens and apostrophes. The document states this is in keeping with International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) specifications. The document includes a list of how to transliterate diacritics into ICAO approved forms. Jörg Müller will be Jorg Mueller, Jiří Dvořák will be Jiri Dvorak and Pàdraig MacDhòmhnaill will be Padraig MacDhomhnaill. Valiantis (talk) 12:39, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- Many thanks again, Valiantis. And thanks, Gabbe, I wonder why I have not goggled this interesting site.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- How oddly inconsistent! Any idea why ü and ä becomes ue and ae (as is also the practice in German), but ö becomes just o? Is it to accommodate other languages that use ö but not ü or ä? -Elmer Clark (talk) 16:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- It seems there is a mistake here. The original document (Appendix 3) gives Ö=OE, so Jörg Müller should be JOERG MUELLER.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- That makes more sense. (I had wondered if they had chosen to reserve "oe" for "ø" only for some reason). There does appear to be a typo in the Passport Service's documentation. Of course, if this error is in the reference material that staff at the Passport Service are using, then when Jörg does apply for a British passport, he may find it comes back as belonging to Jorg regardless of what the ICAO documentation says. Valiantis (talk) 04:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- Of course, one other thought strikes me. The codes in the ICAO documentation are specifically the codes used in the Machine Readable Zone (MRZ) which are standard for all passports of all nations. These are the letters A through to Z, the digits 0 throught to 9 and a filler "<". The text in the Visual Identification Zone (VIZ) (the bit of the personal ID page a human will read) may use "national characters" (i.e. digraphs, diacritics, special characters). The codes in the UK Passport Service document, although derived from the MRZ codes, appear to refer to the codes they will use in the VIZ, where they will also use hyphens and apostrophes (which can't be included in the MRZ). So it might just be that, for unknown reasons, they choose to diverge from the MRZ codes for the VIZ. (As an aside, the ICAO standards require that apostrophes are omitted entirely and not replaced with a filler in the MRZ. My surname contains an apostrophe and looking at my old passport I notice that the apostrophe has been replaced with a "<" filler. Make of that what you will.) Valiantis (talk) 05:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- That makes more sense. (I had wondered if they had chosen to reserve "oe" for "ø" only for some reason). There does appear to be a typo in the Passport Service's documentation. Of course, if this error is in the reference material that staff at the Passport Service are using, then when Jörg does apply for a British passport, he may find it comes back as belonging to Jorg regardless of what the ICAO documentation says. Valiantis (talk) 04:53, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
- It seems there is a mistake here. The original document (Appendix 3) gives Ö=OE, so Jörg Müller should be JOERG MUELLER.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 03:20, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
I suppose the only places where Welsh and Gealic are present are only the title and the translation page, right? As for diacritics: I have read this interesting document before, but still I cannot understand why they omit all diacritics. Is it so technically difficult in our advanced times with Unicode and all these? In French and German passports there is printed diacritics in names, though I don't know how foreign diacritics are treated (like č or å).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 22:51, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- It may be for consistency with old systems. (Consider just how long a history core airline ticketing systems have). I've just picked up a month-old passport, and Welsh and Gaelic are currently present on the title page - on the left hand side (as local languages) rather than the right hand side which is EU languages and does not contain them; they are also present on the two translations pages as the second and third language respectively, with the others following in the same order as the title page. (The translations used to be on one page, and are now spread over two - the EU has expanded a lot!) The inside cover has "Her Britannic Majesty's..." in English only; the next page (1) is the title page, then image page (2), then official observations (3). Both (2) and (3) have the labels in English and French. The following pages are the translations (4-5), then blanks for visas up to 31. 32 is notes in English only, then inside back is contact details. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:57, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, Andrew, for a very clear answer. But I think you meant that the observation page(2) goes before the photo/information page(3), doesn't it? Or is there just issued a new design (again) with the pages switched?
- By the way, though not British, but I've found the translation page of the most multilingual passport of Europe - the Swiss one. I suppose this page (they must be two) in the British passport looks alike, and all EU-passports have such pages.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 23:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- My passport is a little over a year old, so presumably doesn't include Croatian, but the order of pages is a) burgundy cover, b) Her Britannic Majesty's.... c) On the left: European Union/ Yr Undeb Ewropeaidd / Aonadh Eorpach UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND / Teyrnas Gyfunol Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon / Rioghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Èireann a Tuath Passport / Pasbort / Cead-siubhail, on the right, the same in very small print in all current EU official languages (incidentally, I was rather surprised as I was always under the impression that the Welsh for "passport" if you were being formal is "trwydded teithio", not "pasbort" which is just a borrowing from English). d) the plasticised data page, e) observations (including a second printed copy of my photo), f) over the next two pages the index to translations in order (as far as I can make out): English, Welsh, Gaelic, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Danish, Irish, Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, Swedish, Czech, Estonian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Slovak, Slovenian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, and Romanian. I was a bit puzzled by the order, but I think it's roughly in order of accession to the EU. g) pages 6-31 for visas (n.b. the pages are not blank, but are printed faintly with various landscapes, scenes, weather forecasting symbols, etc, h) page of useful notes i) emergency contact addresses/phone numbers for the holder to write in, j) rear burgundy cover. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Not about languages, but you've also said (as Andrew above) that the photo/information page (d) goes before the observation page (e) and not vice versa. So, is this already outdated then?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's still correct. As you can see from the perforated passport number that runs up the right hand side (and through every page except the cover) these form a pair of pages which are both visible at the same time when the passport is opened. The data page at the bottom of the picture is the first, on the left when you open the book, while the observations page is on the right. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 09:27, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, as Arwel says the photo-information page is p. 2 and the official comments page is p. 3 (they're not numbered, but you can count). I suspect that alternative forms of the name, if both are used in common practice, might be listed on the "official observations" section; I remember when filling out the forms that they explicitly asked about the situation where someone used both a maiden and a married name, presumably so that both could be listed on the passport? But I haven't seen any examples of this. Andrew Gray (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, I didn't mention the perforated numbers! :) I thought that the image above is turned clockwise, but it is turned anti-clockwise. A little unusual for me as in many national passports the photo/information page is in page 3.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, as Arwel says the photo-information page is p. 2 and the official comments page is p. 3 (they're not numbered, but you can count). I suspect that alternative forms of the name, if both are used in common practice, might be listed on the "official observations" section; I remember when filling out the forms that they explicitly asked about the situation where someone used both a maiden and a married name, presumably so that both could be listed on the passport? But I haven't seen any examples of this. Andrew Gray (talk) 14:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's still correct. As you can see from the perforated passport number that runs up the right hand side (and through every page except the cover) these form a pair of pages which are both visible at the same time when the passport is opened. The data page at the bottom of the picture is the first, on the left when you open the book, while the observations page is on the right. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 09:27, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks. Not about languages, but you've also said (as Andrew above) that the photo/information page (d) goes before the observation page (e) and not vice versa. So, is this already outdated then?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- My passport is a little over a year old, so presumably doesn't include Croatian, but the order of pages is a) burgundy cover, b) Her Britannic Majesty's.... c) On the left: European Union/ Yr Undeb Ewropeaidd / Aonadh Eorpach UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND / Teyrnas Gyfunol Prydain Fawr a Gogledd Iwerddon / Rioghachd Aonaichte Bhreatainn is Èireann a Tuath Passport / Pasbort / Cead-siubhail, on the right, the same in very small print in all current EU official languages (incidentally, I was rather surprised as I was always under the impression that the Welsh for "passport" if you were being formal is "trwydded teithio", not "pasbort" which is just a borrowing from English). d) the plasticised data page, e) observations (including a second printed copy of my photo), f) over the next two pages the index to translations in order (as far as I can make out): English, Welsh, Gaelic, Dutch, French, German, Italian, Danish, Irish, Greek, Spanish, Portuguese, Finnish, Swedish, Czech, Estonian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Maltese, Polish, Slovak, Slovenian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, and Romanian. I was a bit puzzled by the order, but I think it's roughly in order of accession to the EU. g) pages 6-31 for visas (n.b. the pages are not blank, but are printed faintly with various landscapes, scenes, weather forecasting symbols, etc, h) page of useful notes i) emergency contact addresses/phone numbers for the holder to write in, j) rear burgundy cover. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 00:26, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oh yes, forgot to mention personal names. In Welsh usage most people stick to one form of their name their whole lives - my first name has no English equivalent, but I use the English form of my family name rather than "Parri" (which is very rare outside the media); my father went through his whole life known by the firstnames Gwilym Hugh, which is an unusual mixture, rather than Gwilym Huw; I can only presume that the registar when his birth was recorded in 1919 had a policy of only using English names, as I discovered his birth certificate records his firstnames as William Hugh! How this would be resolved on a passport will have to remain a mystery, as he never had one. The only place where "cymricised" surnames are commonly found is the media - I remember one tv reporter listed as Siôn Pyrs, though I would be willing to bet that his birth certificate says he's John Pierce; my parents thought this sort of thing was rather pretentious. -- Arwel Parry (talk) 01:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know whether it was pretentious but in the Soviet "internal passports" (equal to modern ID-cards) there were additional pages in local languages of the republics. So each of the 14 "full" republics and each of the autonomous republics/regions inside the RSFSR had its own version of the passport, which differed from the "common" full-Russian version that it had the additional translated page with the title and the translated information page (so all the text there was printed/written in a national language: name, place of birth, month of birth, nationality, etc.), and all other printed text was duplicated in a national language along with Russian.
So in this national pages there was opportunity to write own name in de-russified form. So Минтимер Шарипович Шаймиев could be written as Минтимер Шәрип улы Шәймиев (with the Tatar letter ә and улы "son of" instead of -ович-/-ovich) in the national part of his passport and so on. As I know in Tatarstan there is still an option to get the version of the Russian internal passport with the additional pages in Tatar (but at the end of it). I thought that such a practice exists in other countries.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 04:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know whether it was pretentious but in the Soviet "internal passports" (equal to modern ID-cards) there were additional pages in local languages of the republics. So each of the 14 "full" republics and each of the autonomous republics/regions inside the RSFSR had its own version of the passport, which differed from the "common" full-Russian version that it had the additional translated page with the title and the translated information page (so all the text there was printed/written in a national language: name, place of birth, month of birth, nationality, etc.), and all other printed text was duplicated in a national language along with Russian.