Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2007 November 30

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November 30

Accents in second languages

My first language is English (I'm Canadian), and for about ten years now (since grade four) I've taken French as a second language (NOT immersion, just French classes). I'm proficient, but by no means fluent. Of the Francophone teachers I've had, one from Manitoba, one from Quebec, and one from Belgium, I can hear no difference in their accents, although I'm told there is one, at least between European and Canadian French, if not within different parts of Canada (although there may be; I really don't know). So my question is, can a French (or any other language) student taking English as a second language, at an intermediate level, hear the difference between, say, an American and British accent, that is blatantly obvious to an Anglophone, but maybe less so to someone learning it as a second language? 131.162.146.86 (talk) 01:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know but I'm in the same position as you, Anglophone who took French at school all the way through...whenever we had an Anglophone French teacher, they had an obvious (to me) Canadian English accent, and if they were from Quebec they had a distinct Quebecois accent. One year in university we had a TA from Nice, and I had absolutely no idea what she was saying, ever. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am a US-American at a fairly low intermediate level in French. I am to a fair extent self-taught, partly through travel in France (and a little in Belgium and Quebec). My formal teachers were 1) a German woman whose husband is French and 2) a French woman. To me, the difference between Canadian and European French is obvious, and I can tell pretty quickly whether a speaker is European or a Francophone Canadian. As for the difference between American and British English, I think that most foreign English language learners can hear the difference. During my youthful travels through Europe, Europeans, even those who didn't speak much English, knew from my English that I was American. Rhoticity, I think, is pretty obvious and distinctive, as is the American pronunciation of "yeah". Marco polo (talk) 02:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I had this conversation the other day with a (fluent in English, and having lived in the UK for 3 years) Bosnian, who (it turned out) could easily distinguish American, English and Scottish accents but had some trouble with the intricacies of English regional accents. Algebraist 02:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I am French and when I was learning English, it took me many years to distinguish the American accent from the British accents. To me it all sounded "some sort of English", until I actually spend some time with the natives, rather than listening to a few people's accents (the teachers'). I have been living in London for 6 years now and I still have problems distinguish some specific pairs like Canadian/American accents, and another pair: Irish and Scottish accents. I really don't know any kiwis, so I guess I would not recognise that one too. --Lgriot (talk) 08:01, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

My German exchange partner, who was otherwise very proficient in English, couldn't tell the difference between American and English accents at all. -Elmer Clark (talk) 08:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to how much variation of pronunciation is there is within English, as opposed to within French, and how good an "ear" the listener has for detecting these differences. I don't know French well enough to comment on that specifically, but I can tell you that my own wife is Russian, and she can hear the difference between the English spoken in different countries and between many of the accent groups within the UK. She can in some cases even distinguish some of the more subtle differences between specific, locally-related accents, such as the difference between a Glasgow accent and an Edinburgh accent, which most foreigners (maybe even most English people) would have trouble disinguishing. Of course, when she has no familiarity with an accent, she can't hear it at all, but that's as expected. Koolbreez (talk) 09:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I second the suggestion that it's about the "ear for differences", which can be both a natural aptitude and something that can be learned. My partner spent the first half of his life in Sri Lanka. His native language is English - the Sri Lankan version, naturally. He also knows many, many Sinhalese songs off by heart, and can converse in Sinhalese if necessary, but is far happier with English. Apart from school English, he has never studied languages; and although he has a very keen ear for puns and wordplay, and consistently beats me at Scrabble, he has no interest in languages other than those he already knows, and shows no ear for them. He couldn't tell French from German, for example. He has no difficulty in understanding English in other accents - Scottish, Irish, Australian, NZ, Canadian, American, Indian, Cockney, South African etc etc - but often misidentifies them. He's travelled quite a bit, including places where English wasn't much help, but also spent long periods in the USA and Canada. I'm sure there are many Sri Lankans with no greater education than he's had, and who've never travelled, who would correctly identify English accents due to their naturally better aptitude for this. -- JackofOz 21:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The "ear for differences" might be fundamentally motivated by a language's phoneme inventory. For instance, Spanish has five vowels and Spanish speakers have a certain amount of difficulty acquiring, producing, and perceiving the 15 or so vowels of English when learning. Considering that accent differences in English are largely in the vowels, I would presume that Spanish speakers would have difficulty distinguishing between American and British speech. On the other hand, differences in Spanish accents lie largely in the realization of certain consonants such as those represented by 'll', y, c, and z. As a speaker of English who makes a distinction between dental and alveolar fricatives, I can tell the differences between Spanish accents exhibiting distinción vs seseo accents but I have some difficulty distinguishing between those who pronounce 'll' as a palatal lateral approximant vs a voiced palatal fricative, etc. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 23:52, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

There are lots of British and American accents so the first problem we foreigners face identifying whether an accent is British or American is that. Cockney is a lot different than Received Pronunciation (the first time I heard it I thought that was American), and the same happens with the various American accents and General American. The most obvious difference between the two is that General American is (annoyingly) rhotic whereas Received Pronunciation is not. So if you want to be able to identify an accent, you need to know beforehand which particular sounds define the accent and the ability to tell them apart. Just that. --Taraborn 11:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Many Germans I know can easily distinguish between a Brit and an American, not only from their respective pronunciations of English, but also from their respective pronunciations of German. Actually, so can I (an American English speaker). What many Germans can hear that I can't is the difference between (say) an Austrian and a Northern German pronunciation of English. I can hear most differences of regional accents of German, but I can't really tell apart the regional German accents of English like that. —Angr ^{If you've written a quality article...} 11:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"You're an absolute shower!"

What is Terry-Thomas saying? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:03, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I presume you're referring to It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World. I believe it's a polite way of saying "a shower of shit". -- JackofOz (talk) 04:26, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I heard it on I'm All Right Jack, but thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It used to be a common slang expression in the UK, especially among army types. The OED gives "a group or crowd of people. (Usually derogatory) a pitiful collection or rabble"--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:43, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

hebdomadibus

It is a book by Boethius, the philosopher. What does it mean exactly? I know that it is a derivative of seven. Thank you. Omidinist (talk) 07:49, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It appears to be the Latin dative/ablative case plural form of the Greek word meaning "a set of seven". The exact translation would depend on the context. By the way, a more usual Latin title would be along the lines of De Hebdomadibus, rather than Hebdomadibus standing alone. AnonMoos (talk) 10:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The title of Boethius' book is indeed as AnonMoos conjectures. Knowing Latin and Greek does not make the title of "On Hebdomads" any less obscure. I'm willing to guess that Boethius' terminology was inspired by Proclus (search our article for "hebdomad" and "Boethius"). Apparently Boethius used the term in the meaning "common conception" or "axiom," and the book had some influence as a textbook on axioms (a book has been published with the title Die Axiomenschriff des Boethius (De Hebdomadibus) als Philosophisches Lehrbuch des Mittelalters, Brill, 1966). The book has a fuller title, How Are Substances Good In This, That They Are, Since They Are Not Substantial Goods? Both titles come from Boethius' words in the opening of his treatise, where he says he will answer the long-title question "from our hebdomads," meaning, again, "from my seven common conceptions [koinai ennoiai] or axiomatic statements." As far as I can tell, Boethius used the term hebdomad simply because he listed seven of them, which seems to have confused his Medieval readers to no end, because (1) many of them had no clue that hebdomad had to do with the number seven, and (2) the inaccurately transmitted texts of Boethius they had before them tended to give nine and not seven of the "hebdomads." I gleaned much of this from this book, searchable on Amazon, and I have not read or seen De hebdomadibus, so, as usual, no guarantees! Wareh 16:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe my first, instinctive answer (a connection to Proclus) should be given a bit more weight, because after writing the above I find this book (search it for "hebdomad"), in which we read (p. 90): "The unusual [Boethian] term of 'hebdomads' is an allusion that is so opaque that it remained unexplained until our days. I have elsewhere proved, I think, that this is an allusion to the proclusian symbolic meaning of the number seven. According to Proclus, seven is the number of Athena and so the number of philosophy. A hebdomad, he says, is an emanation of the 'intellective light' in us." There does not seem to be a reference given to point the reader to that proof "elsewhere." Wareh 16:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A great article indeed, Wareh. I feel much indebted to you. And thank you, AnonMoos. Omidinist 05:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There was a similar mystery about the name of the Hebdomadal Council, which used to rule our affairs at Oxford. It had eighteen members and met every two weeks during full terms. There was a rumour that when first set up it had begun to meet once a week, and that this had proved far too onerous. Xn4 18:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

hourensou

hourensou seems to be a notion in Japanese within the field of "problem solving". Can someone explain it to me please? (I don't know any kanji, and my hiragana knowledge is rubbish, let alone my spoken Japanese. Please only use English to answer, thanks:-) ) --Lgriot (talk) 08:32, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's an abbreviation of "hōkoku, renraku, sōdan", which means "report, contact, consultation." A good employee is supposed to do these three things well.--K.C. Tang (talk) 09:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, a noun 'hourensou' is spinach. Oda Mari (talk) 10:02, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

thanks a lot K.C. Lgriot (talk) 12:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Hellenistic poem

Many years ago I read a Classical Greek poem, of which I can remember only the first three lines. Could someone give me a link to the full Greek text? I'm giving the first three lines here in transliteration because I'm not adept with typing Greek characters (and anyway, I know you like a challenge!)

Mesonykhtiois poth' horais/Hote phyla panta thneton/kamato damenta keitai/ .... Maid Marion 13:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't mean "Μεσονυκτίοις ποθ' ὥραις στρέφεθ' ἡνίκ' Ἄρκτος ἤδη κατὰ χεῖρα τὴν Βοώτου, μερόπων δὲ φῦλα πάντα κέαται" by any chance? Haukur 16:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm pretty sure that the first three lines of my poem are quoted exactly. I don't know a thing about who wrote it. But I'm interested to know what your poem is - it is not familiar to me. Please tell. 81.151.63.22 16:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Anacreon. See here Haukur 16:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Or, perhaps, the Anacreonteia. Hmm... Haukur 16:45, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I give up. I can't find your exact lines anywhere. But clearly there is close textual correspondence between your lines and the ones that I quoted from the Anacreonteia. If I had quoted two more words we'd have got "damenta" too :) Haukur 16:56, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Have another look at the poem quoted by Haukur (Anacreontea 33 West). Surely it's your poem!! The whole thing in Greek can be found here (scroll down a bit to "Ta keimena sta arxaia: εἰς μεσονύκτιον Ἔρωτα"). Wareh 17:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Haukur and Wareh. I'm sure this is the poem after all. I came across it in the textbook from which I first learnt Greek, a good 35 years ago. I guess the author took the Anacreon poem and simplified it (and changed it to standard Attic) - so the way he quoted it was different from the original. That makes sense. Thanks again to both of you. Maid Marion 17:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad the mystery was solved. Could you satisfy my curiosity and say in what textbook you read this poem, adapted? Wareh 04:07, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The textbook was called Kepos and I was studying it around 1973. I can't remember the author, and even after learning Greek the title strikes me as odd - the author must have been in a fanciful mood. Some years later I picked up the Classical Greek title in the 'Teach Yourself' series, and found that it was my old friend Kepos, reissued with just one significant change - the exercises of translating English into Greek had been removed. Hope this satisfies your curiosity, and thanks once again for your help. Maid Marion 11:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

An excellent book. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, Maid Marion. I've just returned from an absence, and this is now in the archive, but for any future curious readers, the book is Francis Kinchin Smith and T.W. Melluish, Kepos: Greek in Two Years, 298 pp., English Universities Press, 1951. [1] I haven't seen it. In fact, a review states that Kepos reused material from Teach Yourself Greek (by the same authors, list of editions, first pub. 1947; perhaps some earlier TYG editions had the exercises now missing). Wareh (talk) 19:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What language is this?

I happened upon this site whilst wandering and cannot identify the language. Please don't tell me it's Italian. Richard Avery 15:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I probably won't be able to help, but without a link to the actual site, I don't think anybody will. --LarryMac | Talk 15:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, sorry, what an idiot here's [2] the link

It appears to be Romanian, which at first glance can really look quite a bit like Italian. Note there's a language selector up top that is by default set to "Romana" -- Ferkelparade π 15:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. Cautare is apparently search in Romanian (at least I deduce that from the pagina principala in Romanian). This is a Romance language; thus, it has strong similarities with Italian, Spanish, etc. Pallida  Mors 18:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Right, thanks guys. So I don't need to be a linguist - just a bit brighter. Hmm.Richard Avery 20:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

That was hilarious, Richard :) --Taraborn 22:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

A further hint that you might have spotted is the "ro." at the start of the domain name, which apparently has the same meaning as in ro.wikipedia.org. --Anon, 00:47 UTC, December 1, 2007.

A good rule-of-thumb test for Romanian is the presence of a lot of words ending in -ul and -ului... AnonMoos 01:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

More generally speaking, Wikipedia:Language recognition chart might help, of course. Bessel Dekker 13:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

As might the Xerox Language Identifier. -Elmer Clark 07:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

What is cod when it isn't a fish?

I never understood about Jonathan Aitken and the "cod fax". (For those of you not interested in British political scandals, please feel free to fall into a light doze.) What is a "cod" here? Is it related to "codpiece", and why and how? What was cod about the fax anyway, once I understand what cod is? BrainyBabe 18:07, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

adj. not authentic; fake: a cod fax purporting to come from Mr. Aitkin's office.

n. a joke or hoax: I suppose it could all be a cod.

v. (codded , codding ) [tr.] play a joke or trick on (someone): he was definitely codding them.

See also codswallop. 86.21.74.40 18:12, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Elim

What was the original meaning of Elim? From a search on Wikipedia and Google it seems to be something religious. Thanks 80.2.193.243 18:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Source: Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary (late 1800's)

Elim, the rams; the strong; stags

Source: Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary

Elim

trees, (Ex. 15:27; Num. 33:9), the name of the second station where the Israelites encamped after crossing the Red Sea. It had "twelve wells of water and threescore and ten palm trees." It has been identified with the Wady Ghurundel, the most noted of the four wadies which descend from the range of et-Tih towards the sea. Here they probably remained some considerable time. The form of expression in Ex. 16:1 seems to imply that the people proceeded in detachments or companies from Elim, and only for the first time were assembled as a complete host when they reached the wilderness of Sin (q.v.). [3]

-- SaundersW 19:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand:

This year marks the 75th anniversary of Elim and its mission of caring for aged and infirm people. In 1927 the Board of the Minnesota District Society of The Swedish Evangelical Free Church (later the North Central District Association) purchased the Caley Mansion in Princeton, MN and converted the building into a home for 25 residents of the Princeton community. This new Elim facility was dedicated in August of 1927. The founding members chose the name Elim, meaning "rest after trial," taking it from Exodus 15:27 where the nation of Israel was wandering in the desert: "And they came to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped near the water."[4]

-- SaundersW 19:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for a great reply and all your hard work! I have often seen chapels named Elim. So it is metaphorically like an oasis and gathering place. 80.0.125.247 21:38, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

---

There are at least three words pronounced Elim in the Hebrew Bible (maybe even more). The meaning of Elim with a yod after the lamed in Psalms 29:1, Psalms 89:7, and possibly (in "defective" spelling without the yod) in Exodus 15:11 is "divinities". The meaning of Elim as a place name (usually with the yod after the aleph) is a matter of speculation; my Biblical Hebrew lexicon suggests the meaning "big trees". I think the last quote intended to suggest that Elim was a place of rest after trial for the Israelites, not that the Hebrew word actually literally means "place of rest after trial". AnonMoos 02:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Language test comparison

What would be the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages equivalent of a DSH-3 (Deutsche Sprachprüfung für den Hochschulzugang) level in German? --Taraborn 19:22, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Deutsche Sprachprüfung für den Hochschulzugang seems to suggest it is C2. Wikipeditor 03:12, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you say 'start from null'?

Or this is no fine alternative to 'start from scratch'?217.168.4.177 19:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not an expression I have seen before. It is certainly not idiomatic American English. "Null" is not a commonly used word in American English, though educated speakers understand it. Still, I think that you might confuse American English speakers with an unfamiliar expression like this. I'm not sure about British English. Marco polo 20:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"Start from zero" would work in UK English, but not "Start from null". SaundersW 20:30, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

"Null" is not a synonym for "zero". It's closer to "empty", "void", but is not used as their synonym either. -- JackofOz 20:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree in English, Jack, but in French it is pretty close, and the OP seems to be from Spain, so I'd be guessing about that. SaundersW 20:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Could you say "start from nil"? Recury 20:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "Null" is only heard in everyday American English in the set phrase "null and void". Hardly anybody knows what it means. It's almost like "span" in "spic and span". I only know it from math, "null set", a set having no elements. "Nullify", though, is very much alive. "Nil" is closer to the meaning you want than "null". For example, "His stamina is nil" (he has no stamina). "Nil" is an adjective, though, so you can't "start from" it, either. I don't think you can modify "start from scratch" successfully, anyway; it's an idiomatic expression. A few synonymous phrases: start over, start all over again, begin again, go back to square one, take a fresh run at. --Milkbreath 21:09, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Start from nothing. 80.0.125.247 21:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

In German you can say von Null anfangen, which means: "start from zero". In colloquial non-technical English, the word "null" is rarely used, and then almost exclusively as an adjective. In "from null" it would be a noun.  --Lambiam 00:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"Start from nothing" or "start from zero" would work in American English too. Marco polo 01:52, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a technical note on null from a database analyst... it has received a special place in computing and databases. It is used to differentiate from Zero or Nil as these denote the existence of a value and mathematical operators, boolean logic, etc. can be applied to them. Null denotes a distinct lack of a value and has to be handled specifically and very carefully in code targeting possible nulls. Also, the reference above to "null and void" - this might have been more commonly used than the poster thinks - my parents used to commonly use that expression on many a different occasion. "Six or nix" was another common one, not related, but just out of interest. Finally, regarding the OP's question, scratch is the same as zero, so you cannot substitute that for null. Sandman30s 21:21, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to be clear, I didn't mean that few know what "null and void" means, but that few could define "null" if you asked them. --Milkbreath 21:27, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

There is also the expression "start with a clean slate." — Michael J 18:18, 6 December 2007 (UTC)