Humanities desk
< December 19	<< Nov \| December \| Jan >>	Current desk >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

December 20

Help me identify this item

We found an odd piece of statuary at an antique store today. It's a tower of iconography I don't completely understand. Here are five pieces of it, from bottom to top:

Dragons?
Dogs?
but this is a bull
Elephants
Dancers

Between the pairs of dancers there's a big cat (leopard?), a stork perhaps, and a cobra. I'm sure someone here can tell me what this is! --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 03:48, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

To this non-expert on the subject, it looks like a modern interpretation of something old (note obvious staining). —107.15.157.44 (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I should clarify. I know it's a thing. I don't really care what thing it actually is physically, it just looks cool. But what is it representing? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Conceptually, it resembles a Bi Xi stele, with perhaps a literal depiction of Four Pillars of Destiny. Many figures relate to the Chinese zodiac, especially when considering that the elephant replaces the pig in Thailand {and "bull" = "ox"). A "proper" Bi Xi should include a tortoise shell, however. Probably just a pastiche inspired by such or similar. Hopefully somebody who knows something about the subject will dismiss my humble ignorance. —107.15.157.44 (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2018 (UTC) --P.s: presumably, you took the photos yourself; if so, why not go back and ask?[reply]

Ask who? The guy running the antique store had no idea; it had been sitting in the back of the shop for years. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you ask me, that leopard is a lynx. Those swirls seem more like fur than spots. What a lynx is doing where grapes grow, I can't even guess. InedibleHulk (talk) 06:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You would need to discover the missing lynx. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:13, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant, but lynx species and grapes overlap in a lot of places. Including my back yard. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:11, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Na-Dene Migration

Has any one given a date for the migration of the Na-Dene peoples into America? déhanchements (talk) 06:44, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If the hypothesis mentioned in the lede of Na-Dene languages is correct – "that the Na-Dene languages of North America and the Yeniseian languages of Siberia had a common origin in a language spoken in Beringia, between the two continents" – and if the supposition mentioned in the lede of Beringia is correct – "It is believed that a small human population of at most a few thousand arrived in Beringia from eastern Siberia during the Last Glacial Maximum before expanding into the settlement of the Americas sometime after 16,500 years BP" – then that latter figure is your answer.

However, be aware that 'Na-Dene' is the name given to a family of languages, not to a people or peoples: languages can be transmitted from peoples to peoples (e.g. the various non-italic peoples in Europe who adopted the Latin language and evolved it into the many modern Romance languages; the Celtic peoples in Europe who adopted Germanic languages, including what is now English; and before all that the many peoples who adopted what had started out as Proto-Indo-European), so there is danger in assuming a one-to-one correspondence of one with the other. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.251.247 (talk) 08:52, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

After 16,500 years ago? I expected a much later date, not too long before the Eskimo migration. There doesn't seem to be that much divergence between Proto-Yeniseian and Na-Dene. déhanchements (talk) 17:41, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"After 16,500 years ago" gives only an upper limit, not an actual date. Further on in the Na-Dene languages article, there is:

"According to Joseph Greenberg's controversial classification of the languages of Native North America, Na-Dené (including Haida) is one of the three main groups of Native languages spoken in the Americas. Contemporary supporters of Greenberg's theory, such as Merritt Ruhlen, have suggested that the Na-Dené language family represents a distinct migration of people from Asia into the New World that occurred six to eight thousand years ago, placing it around four thousand years later than the previous migration into the Americas by Amerind speakers; this remains an unproven hypothesis.[5]"

The question depends partly on how you define "the Na-Dene peoples" and where you draw the line between the Na-Dene languages and their precursors. That there are contested theories around this topic suggests that, whatever definitions are adopted, we do not yet have sufficient evidence to come to a firm conclusion. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.251.247 (talk) 18:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I should've said Proto-Na-Dené peoples, and by that I don't mean any particular race. I was using it in a linguistic sense. déhanchements (talk) 02:44, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When did X in a box start meaning elevators?

Is there a meaning behind X or is it just a convenient convention? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 15:49, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but I don't understand the question, can you provide an example of whatever it is you are talking about? --Viennese Waltz 16:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On floor maps. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious. It's "X, for eXcitement" (hierarchy: OK. You Forget about it now :) --Askedonty (talk) 16:55, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The same, in black and red on white: Emergency (Exit) --Askedonty (talk) 19:02, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Simple answer: it doesn't. Show us an example of this. --Viennese Waltz 19:10, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

File:World_Trade_Center_Building_Design_with_Floor_and_Elevator_Arrangment_m.svg. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:56, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's right. It's not a "X" either. It's a cross intended meaning "forbidden in case of Emergency". See the diagram in link provided above. --Askedonty (talk) 19:23, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence in the diagram suggests that it means that. There is separate wording about what to do in case of fire. I think the symbol is indeed "just a convenient convention". They have to indicate in some way that the floor doesn't continue into the elevator shaft, and whereas stairs produce an obvious pictorial symbol that you see being used, a hole in the floor does not. --76.69.46.228 (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a X. The "box" is black. Green indicates safety. You wanted a skull drawn on the box ? --Askedonty (talk) 19:40, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK at least, a shape on a floor plan with a diagonal cross through it indicates a void. These are usually service ducts or elevator shafts. On a map it indicates a covered passageway.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:44, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This US webpage of Pre-drawn floor plan symbols shows a box with a diagonal cross marked "Elevator". Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 1911 floor plans shown here (page 8) use an X for the elevators. My search string was "fifth avenue" +"floor plan" site:archive.org and if you can identify an earlier building with elevators, you could adjust accordingly to perhaps find an even earlier usage. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:42, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone know the names of these court cases?

In a 1917 article about immigration and immigration restrictionism, I noticed this sentence on page 450:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/1883384.pdf

"Various states made attempts to exclude the manifestly undesirable, but these were rendered largely ineffectual by the rivalry among the states for good immigrants, and the repeated decisions declaring all such measures unconstitutional."

Exactly which decisions (I'm assuming that the author is talking about court decisions--though please correct me if I am wrong in regards to this) is the author talking about here? As in, what exactly were the names of these decisions? Futurist110 (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Chy Lung v. Freeman and Chae Chan Ping v. United States? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:24, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think he meant decisions prior to the Page Act of 1875. Found only 2 on [1] "Subject: Immigration" "Date: 1800 to 1899":

* City of New York v. Miln, 36 U.S. (11 Pet.) 102 (1837)

* Passenger Cases --Smith v. Turner., 48 U.S. (7 How.) 283 (1849).

--212.186.133.83 (talk) 21:12, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for this information. Futurist110 (talk) 01:26, 23 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]