Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 May 12

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May 12

Religions with inferior Creators?

The main ones seem to hinge on the idea that the creator god is bigger, older, wiser and just better than its subordinate creations. Is there one (or more) that holds life as we know it resulted from some tinkering gone awry by simpler creatures (which may or may not have survived), like how humans might be kickstarting fancy robots?

Doesn't have to be a pure "religion". A "school of thought" is fine. But I'm not talking about any sort of natural selection. There has to be intent involved in the creation. Like someone physically, hopefully building the first cell, then adding bits and pieces until the bits and pieces automated and recursively self-improved.

I've looked at List of creation myths, but nothing's popping out at me. Don't want to read them all. Any hints? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:01, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Your "tinkering" bit makes me think of the origins of the Khazad in Tolkien's legendarium (Aulë doesn't want to wait for the Eruhíni to awake, so he makes his own race, and God ultimately accepts them), so if you're familiar with that story, could you please say whether that's basically what you're looking for? Meanwhile, as far as actual religions, Yaldabaoth seems to fit what you're talking about: this is the name of the Demiurge in some ancient Gnostic variants (see the Pistis Sophia, for example), and in general the Demiurge of Gnosticism sounds like he'd qualify. Nyttend (talk) 02:09, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Never heard of that Tolkien story, but I'll look into it. I don't care for stories where humans are some sort of special life (like in Yaldabaoth]], or the creators are omnipotent/immortal/judgmental (like Sophia). Evolution should still happen as "science" says, but the basics must have been built by a strange, intelligent (by the time's standards) group. I found these "nuts". Has a lot of helpful keywords, so consider this mostly resolved. Answer for others, if you want. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I remember reading in my American Lit class some Native American legend about Coyote and some other spirits having to make multiple experiments at making something neat, eventually creating with humanity by just messing about, but heck if I know where the book is. I'm pretty sure it was from the western deserts tribes. The Dionysian Mysteries might have taught that we're the ashes of titans nuked by Zeus after they ate his son Sabazius (who later becomes incarnate as Dionysus). Still special (in that we have the divine spark of Dionysus in us), but still an accident.

Going into the realm of fiction, Lord Dunsany's The Gods of Pegana are almost unaware of humanity (and interactions between the two don't necessarily turn out good for either side). It's been a while since I've read it, but I think they kinda just saw humans and said "where the hell did all these little things come from?" Ian.thomson (talk) 02:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I had an Ojibwe step-dad for a bit, and heard quite a bit about Coyote, Raven and Grandmother Moon. Not bad (especially when your brain is melting, but again, humans had their own story. There may have been tales where Starving Eagle looked closely into Water Food which would grow and multiply itself, in new forms each season. But oral history fades and morphs so quickly. Especially when your brain is melting. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:40, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm thinking I might've been reading a Navajo creation story. If not them, one of their neighbors. What I'm finding with a slight glance at the first page of the Google search rings bells, with the creators having to actually make multiple worlds because each one just isn't quite right. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:48, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

They all seem to share a the same characters (natural spirits), but the details went all over the place, even from band to band. It's like Tolkienish or Lovecraftian subcultures, but without even a post office, let alone the Internet, for a consensus to take place. They just call it like they see it. Wolves, foxes, salmon, trees, streams: they all project consistent basic attributes, wherever they're seen. Just a matter of brain-melting imagination after that. The good ones get repeated, and the stupid ones go the way of the Jackalope. The Grimm Brothers have a good one on why and how man lives exactly seventy years. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The origin of the Khazad (the Dwarves) appears in chapter II of the Quenta Silmarillion, the main part of the Silmarillion. Judging by your comments on Yaldabaoth, I don't think it's what you're trying to find. Nyttend (talk) 02:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

No, but the word "Silmarillion" is probably stuck in my head now, so I might check it out. Thanks. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

From List of races and species in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Many races believe that the Universe was created by some sort of god or in the Big Bang. The Jatravartids, however, believe that the Universe was sneezed out of the nose of a being called the Great Green Arkleseizure. They live in perpetual fear of the time they call "The Coming of the Great White Handkerchief" (their version of the End of the Universe). The theory of the Great Green Arkleseizure is not widely accepted outside Viltvodle VI." Gandalf61 (talk) 13:40, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Possibly tangential to the original question, but in a number of cosmologies an ignorant, malevolent, or insane demiurge creates our material universe, but is subordinate or subsequent to the true, higher, spiritual G/god. Not sure about the relative power/sophistication dynamics of humans vs. demiurge; mostly what's discussed is that the creator of the material universe is not the true god per se. In some of these cosmologies, humans seek (and are presumably capable of) knowing the higher god, despite being the creation of an entity which did not know God. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 15:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Likewise, the robots may figure out the "deep" questions of man (Where did I come from, where am I going?) rather quickly, and get stuck on a much more complicated problem, which they may recognize as the even higher god. To unlock its secrets, they'll try to become it, and also wind up just another demiurge to all-new masters of the universe. As I've come to see by coincidence below, Julian of Norwich may have said as much by It lasts and ever shall, for God loves it; and so everything has its beginning by the love of God.

Thanks for the stories. Not quite there yet, but interesting. And getting closer. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:46, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Discworld seems to have a lot of that going on.Hotclaws (talk) 01:12, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

The draft

I heard this somewhere. Did it really happen?

Someone wants to get out of the Vietnam War and said something along the lines of I want to kill, kill, kill and drink blood! Thinking that he'll be discharged for craziness. Maybe at an especially inappropriate time to be even more believable like on the bus to the base, maybe just in response to a question by the draft board. And the officer says "You're our man". Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:56, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Take a listen to "Alice's Restaurant" --Jayron32 14:59, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

"Alice's Restaurant" is based on actual events, but narrator Arlo Guthrie took some liberties in the telling, so it's possible that part of the story was altered or made up. Full text of the account is here; if you want to look just for the interview with the psychiatrist, you can search for "you're our boy." John M Baker (talk) 17:18, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Supposing the shrink actually did say that, it's entirely possible he was wise to that game. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:32, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

A cousin to that would be "The Draft Dodger Rag" by Phil Ochs. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:47, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The joke was that while being a homicidal maniac didn't disqualify him from being drafted, littering was taken far more seriously. StuRat (talk) 18:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and his pointing that contradiction out to them made them change their tune to, "We don't like your kind." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:59, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Try a web search for "Uncle Sam Doesn't Need You!" about physicist Richard Feynman and the draft board's psychiatric exam. 70.36.142.114 (talk) 18:18, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Saint related superstitions

In Spain we have a lot of superstitions involving saints; for example St Anthony will only help you if you donate to the poor, Sain Pancras will make you gain money if you put parsley in his image, St Rita will give you one thing but then take away another. And my favorite St Cucufato (who may or may not be Cucuphas) will help you find a lost object if you made knots to a handerckief and pretend you are tying his testicles... Do you have similar sain-realted superstitions or is mainly a Hispanic thing? Do you think a list of supertitions involving saints would be a cute article?90.165.117.1 (talk) 19:21, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

In Britain St Pancras is believed to make it possible to stand all the way to Sheffield for only the price of a small house. DuncanHill (talk) 23:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

A number of Afro-American religions (such as Santería, Haitian and Louisiana Voodoo, and Espiritismo) include similar invocations of Saints. Hoodoo is related to those traditions, but is more influenced by Protestantism and Pow-Wows, with the Bible taking more of a central focus.

From personal experience, I know a lot of people (even protestants and agnostics) who put a small statue of St. Francis of Assisi in their yard when they wanted to buy or sell a house or other major property. (Although, come to think of it, if they were going to call on St. Francis, why don't they give their house to the poor?) After the purchase is finished, the statue usually ends up being passed on to either a Catholic friend or an ecumenical protestant minister. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:48, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Here in the UK, I've certainly seen plenty of people keep medallions of St Christopher about their persons or in their vehicles for good fortune when travelling; among Anglophone Catholics I've known people pray to St Anthony of Padua for help in finding lost objects. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

If we're going as far as merely carrying medallions or calling on saints, that seems to be common outside of Protestantism. Heck, I have a St. Jude medallion, and I'm Baptist. (...Although I am a very bad example of what Baptists from South Carolina are like.) Ian.thomson (talk) 23:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

In Canada, my mother would write "s.a.g." in a rear corner of an envelope belonging to personal letters. It meant "St. Anthony Guide" and was meant to prevent the letter from getting lost in the mail. I've always wondered where that superstition originated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.114.87.37 (talk) 00:00, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

My Canadian Christian mother used to tell me the dead could come through the clock to our world at midnight. I suppose that includes saints. 13 is a generally unlucky number. Since the IP above posted at midnight in Greenwich on May 13 (the 133rd day), it seems we may have awaken Julian of Norwich. Don't worry, she's not a witch. But she's probably hungry. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:12, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Wait, nevermind. It's a leap year. Phew. Turns out she may have been a witch, after all. Lots of 3s and 13s, either way. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:23, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

If you look at the See Also lists in patron saints, there's a very good chance that a superstition exists about all of their invocations protecting their certain something. Did you know an Isidore of Seville USB key can make your PC run like new? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:14, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

All of these superstitions are a reflection of folk religions being overlaid by Catholicism. It's a way for the heavenly hierarchy to accommodate polytheism without overtly embracing it. This kind of stuff is ancient. You're not going to see it in the more modern Christian sects. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:49, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Ran across The Golden Bough in my hunt for the Cutty Black Sow yesterday. Damn good book (so far), and explains a lot about the path from magic to religion to science, and the commonalities along the way. I'd recommend it to anyone wondering about questions like this. Not as stuffy as many scholarly books of the time, and can't beat the price. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Do bear in mind that it is very much a product of its time, and so has what is now considered some very dodgy scholarship and completely spurious links. Enjoy it, but don't rely on anything you read in it or you'll be laughed at by modern scholars. 86.146.28.105 (talk) 20:15, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Throwing a statue of St.Joseph into a garden means you will buy that house though lately I've heard of burying a statue of St. Joseph upside down in your garden ensures a quick sale .Hotclaws (talk) 01:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Has anyone done a statistical analysis of the success rate for that particular type of idol worship? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:25, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Why do I pretty much never get a tax return, no matter how much I make?

I don't understand the first thing about taxes so sorry if this is a dumb question. But all my life I've experienced my friends getting large tax returns (e.g. over $1000 for a friend who earns less than $7000 a year, over $500 for a friend with the same as well) while I've always had to pay an unusually high amount - one year I had earned ~$2000 from working, but had withdrawn a $10,000 savings bond to pay for tuition, and I had to pay $3,000 in taxes at year end, more than I had earned working my measly student job for an entire year. This year I have a job where I earn ~40k a year before taxes, and rather than getting a return I have to pay $900. So it's like no matter how much I make I always have to pay an annoyingly high amount. I think the only year I did get a tax return it was for about 9 dollars. I'm a 23 year old single male with no spouse/children. Why do I always get screwed over? Sorry if it's impossible to answer because you'd need to actually look at my personal information or something. NIRVANA2764 (talk) 20:15, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I assume you mean tax refund - your return is the Form 1040 (if you're in the US) and its associated schedules and side forms and any payments you have to make. Most people get refunds from the government because the amount they have withheld by their employers and sent directly to the IRS exceeds the amount of tax they actually wind up owing. This is the biggest factor in most cases. Then, many people who aren't 23 and single have expenses (e.g. childcare, certain healthcare-related expenses, some investment or real-estate improvement credits, mortgage/loan repayment credits, etc, etc, etc) that are tax deductible in one form or another. Beyond these generalities, you are correct that an accountant would be best positioned to give you information relating to your specific case. Sometimes during tax season some preparers will offer to take a look at your return for free - perhaps they could help you out in better detail. Good luck! ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 20:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

(ec)Assuming you're American, a "tax return" is the form you file (the 1040) and a "tax refund" is what you get if you were overwithheld, i.e. paid too much tax per check. Which raises the question... Are you having too little withholding taken out? If so, you'll inevitably end up owing at tax time (April 15th). If your income level is fairly consistent, you could look at the total tax for 2013 and divide it by the number of paychecks you get per year. Than check your paystub and see how much is actually being withheld. You can have your employer change your withholding criteria to take out more money up front, and then you will owe a smaller amount at tax time, or maybe even get a refund. If you're unsure, you could give a tax expert like H&R Block a call, but your best bet might be to go right to the source: The IRS.

But here's the thing: Whether you pay on April 15th, get a refund, or break even, you're not getting "screwed" in the bigger picture, because your total tax bill will be the same either way. Your friends that are getting refunds are either having more withheld up front or maybe they have deductions you don't have, such as children and/or paying a home mortgage. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Ideally, you want to come out as close to zero as possible on your tax returns. That's because a) if you withhold too little, you have to pay extra to cover the difference, and many people have not budgeted for that or b) if you withhold too much, you're basically giving the government an annual interest-free loan. Getting a fat refund check every year makes people feel good in the short term, but if you had invested that money (or even put it in an interest-bearing savings account or a CD) you'd end up with more money. Withholding extra money from your paycheck doesn't make any financial sense; so ideally you'd want to adjust your deductions so you're getting as small of a refund as possible every year. --Jayron32 20:46, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Or a small net amount owed to the IRS. It's hard to make it come out exactly even, but keeping it small either way is ideal. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:53, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Well now, in theory, if you are good at budgeting and have a high tolerance for anxiety, you could do a little better by arranging it so that the bare minimum is withheld during the year to keep you from owing a penalty. Then you're trying to maximize the amount you owe on April 15. Right now, of course, interest rates are so low that it's hard to imagine it's worth the aggravation. --Trovatore (talk) 23:51, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you can fiddle with your W-4 in various ways, to minimize, maximize or optimize the withholding amount. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:54, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Next year, you should have a tax preparer fill out your tax forms, or invest in software that will guide you through the process. You may be missing deductions that could cut your tax bill and deliver a refund. For example, are you paying student debt? Did you know the interest on that is deductible? Also, any time you get income (such as from a savings bond) from which taxes are not withheld, you have to put some of it aside (one third is a good idea) to cover the taxes on that income. Marco polo (talk) 23:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

If I were in the OP's shoes, I would get a product such as TurboTax and refigure it for 2013. If the OP figured his taxes correctly, no problem. If he missed some deductions, he could file a revised 1040. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Is there any (sensible) reason why America does not use a system like PAYE? DuncanHill (talk) 23:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
  • That's what federal and state withholding are about. The problem is, the calculations may not come out right, especially if the employee is claiming 1-married instead of 1-single, or some other option that results in not enough tax being taken out. Scarier is the possibility that his company's payroll system is not computing it correctly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Example: when I was making just a few cents above minimum wage at Behemart, about 15% of my paychecks were withheld. I'm sure if I asked the company, they'd say it was so that I wouldn't risk having too little withheld. Nevermind that anyone at my pay level gets everything back without filing, and that by filing with proof of student loans, I got everything back and then some. I can only assume corporate was hoping I'd blow it on a bigscreen or something. Ian.thomson (talk) 23:52, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Uh, how do you get anything back without filing? That might be an ignorant question, but I'm used to filing, so it never occurred to me not to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:56, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Oh, OK, apparently (see below) that can be done in Britain. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:57, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• In Britain most employees never have to do a tax return - I'm 44 and have never needed to do one. I've had tax refunds through PAYE part-way through a tax year too. My Mum does do one, but she has income from two different pensions, various investments, and a property she rents out. Even then, her return is very simple and her PAYE adjustments on her pensions are generally very small. DuncanHill (talk) 23:55, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

All I know is if I don't make any over-the-table money in a Canadian year, I get a hundred bucks. Not sure how it makes a lick of sense, but it seems fair. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:58, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

A Canadian year? DuncanHill (talk) 00:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much the same as any year. Just said it in case someone reading wondered what country this magic happens in. Our April 15 doesn't mean anything, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:46, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Canadian Year... essentially the same as the US year, except the 4th of July occurs on the July 1st and the fourth Thursday in November occurs on the second Monday in October Blueboar (talk) 02:04, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

And our springs and falls last about three weeks, not months. Our sports season falls in the cold half. "Memorial Day" is something else, too, but I forget. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:15, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

(Sorry, some edit conflicts!) We don't need to file because our employers tell HMRC what they have paid us, and what taxes they have deducted from our pay. Sometimes you might need to ring them up to ask for a Notice of Coding (which tells your employer what your tax code is), but if your income is mainly from employment then you are very unlikely to ever need to do a return. DuncanHill (talk) 23:59, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Our employers do that too (mutatis mutandis). But that leaves out a lot of stuff. How does the gov't know, for example, what property you've sold during the year? Or are capital gains not taxed in the UK? I know there are places where they're not taxed — that would make things a lot simpler. --Trovatore (talk) 02:11, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

We do have Capital Gains Tax in the UK, but most people don't have enough capital to be affected by it. Sale of your principal home would not attract CGT. DuncanHill (talk) 02:16, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

And of course, Capital Gains Tax would be assessed as CGT, not as Income Tax (which is what PAYE covers). DuncanHill (talk) 02:33, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

International Economic Commissions

Can you cross reference members of the Bohemian Grove Club of California, The Trilateral Commission, and the Bilderberg Group? I'm looking to find if there are any members of each organization that also belong to one or more of the others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robert796 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

According to Bohemian Club, they do not publish their current membership rolls. For the other two, Wikipedia does have a List of Bilderberg participants and This page lists the membership of the Trilateral Commission. --Jayron32 00:56, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

A Youtube search will produce some interesting videos of a who's-who of members/visitors but again those should be taken with a grain of salt. Richard Nixon did speak about his visit to the Grove on one of the Watergate tapes, sounds like he didn't enjoy it much. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 05:53, 13 May 2014 (UTC)