Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 September 1

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September 1

Creating a new page

How do I create a new entry on Wikipedia? All I want to do is create one, very short and simple entry about a candidate running in a political primary race. I looked at all of the instructional pages and I cannot find this information anywhere. Please just give me a simple link to the page where I can create this entry.

thank you, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eagleeye2044AD (talk • contribs) 00:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

When posting to the Reference Desk, please use the + button, which will remind you to put a title on your question. I have added one.

As to creating new articles, that is really a question for the Help Desk, but I'll answer. If you've read Wikipedia:Contributing to Wikipedia#Create new articles, you may have noticed a link to Help:Starting a new page, which has a space right the top where you can type in your title. What it doesn't seem to mention is that this is actually the same as the ordinary "Go" box on every page. All you have to do is pretend the article exists and try to go to it, and there will be a "create this article" link. (As it says, you have to be logged in for it to work.) --Anonymous, 00:43 UTC, September 1, 2007.

And if the "Go" button returns results, click on the small, red link to the non-existant article beneath the page title ("Search").

Welcome to Wikipedia, and have fun editing! --Bowlhover 00:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

NB - As a general rule, "a candidate running in a political primary race" is not considered to be notable (that is, a suitable subject for inclusion in an encyclopedia and thus for a Wikipedia article) unless he or she is already notable in some other regard. See Wikipedia:Notability. Xn4 03:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Amen to what Xn4 just said. Most candidates who are running for a seat are not sufficiently notable for a biography on Wikipedia. Those who win the race may be, but those who merely contend are not, unless they possess some other source of significance (e.g. Tom Tancredo has never won, but he did any number of things to make himself known and did quite a few extremely shady/controversial things). Some people believe that candidates on the ballot in multiple states might be ok. Geogre 12:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Life in the Soviet Union

What was the quality of life for the average Soviet citizen from 1940's-1991? If I was living in the country during that time period, any idea what my home, workplace, school, environment, etc. would look and feel like? What kind of products would I be able to buy? I'm also curious about what the Soviet citizens thought of their government and the outside world.

Also, suppose a hobbyist wanted to buy high-quality electronics from Japan or the United States. Would this purchase be possible, assuming the potential costumer has enough money? --Bowlhover 02:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a long period encompassing several Soviet eras (WW2, the last years of Stalin's reign, Khrushchev, the era of Brezhnevite "stagnation", and post-Brezhnev attempts at reform). However, "hard" currency was scarce for most of it, and only a tiny privileged elite allowed to travel abroad would likely have any opportunity to personally own the latest tech toys. By the way, Japan didn't really become known for high-quality electronics until around the late 1960s... AnonMoos 06:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That would be the latest tech toys from outside the USSR. The USSR had it's own technological development. Which may be an important reason for its (relative) economic downfall - it was a big country, but not all that big (around 150 million people - just over half the population of the US, for example). Other countries profited from each other in a way that the USSR couldn't - even big neighbour China wasn't much of an ally, despite similar ideologies. I said relative economic downfall, because the USSR saw major economic improvement after they got rid of the Tzars. It just didn't do well in comparison with other countries. For most (dissidents excluded), life must have been much better than under the Tzars. Or those living in third world countries.

I only visited Russia after the fall of the USSR (apart from a stopover at Moscow airport - but airports look the same everywhere, so that's no indication). What struck me was how 'western' it felt and at the same time not. People didn't hang around pointlessly, as they often do in poor capitalist countries, but were busy doing something or going somewhere. There was little luxury, but the basics were provided. Perhaps most indicative are the ladas and the metro. Personal property wasn't in high esteem, so purely functional, but the metro was a 'glorification of communion' - absolutely marvelous. Especially the Moscow metro. Public buildings in general were rather impressive. The new and the old. And the old ones were accessible to everyone (when my niece said in the Saint Petersburg summer palace "Wow, we don't have that in the Netherlands", I said, "How do you know - we're not allowed to visit our palaces."). But homes were very Spartan and 'functional'.

What the environment in general would have 'felt like' (vague term) will largely be determined by the nature of the people, because even with such a strong state, people make their own lives. It seems logical to ask someone who lived there and then, but then they wouldn't be able to compare with your reference framework, so if you got such an answer, you would have to be very careful how to interpret it if it deals with what it 'felt like'.

I once asked a Russian if they looked up to the West in the Soviet era, and he said that quite the opposite was true. Maybe that is one reason the Communist Party got so many votes in the mid 1990s. Of course, it was easy for the government to make people believe the West was a horrible place - just show films of the reality of the slums. Hell, even Hollywood provided those - a depiction of the misery in the US, depicted by the US. Perfect propaganda because it makes it perfectly believable. Actually, it's quite likely that the bottom 10% or so in the USSR was better of than the bottom 10% in the West (certainly the US). And crime would probably have been low, just the way it is in Cuba today, because of less extreme poverty combined with severe punishment. Ironically, that last bit is promoted by right wing parties elsewhere. :) Then again, one may argue that the USSR government was pretty right wing (state capitalism?). DirkvdM 09:16, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

On a point of information, crime is as high in Cuba as it is elsewhere in the world, and drug trafficking and addiction are major problems, especially in Havana and the other urban centres. Clio the Muse 23:04, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I understood differently, although I may be confused with crime against travelers. Then again, several Cubans asked me if crime is really so high in the US,which suggests it is low in Cuba, but that is about people's perception of criminality, which is not very reliable, especially if there is little knowledge of the reality of the other country (on both sides). Official figures will be hard to compare between Cuba and other countries as things are defined differently. For example, I can imagine there are more political prisoners in Cuba (per capita), but then I wouldn't count them as criminals. I was really talking about 'crime in the streets' and Cubans gave me the impression that that was very low. DirkvdM 07:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Slight expansion: I've had lots of political discussions with Cubans and there was roughly a 50/50 division between supporters and opponents of Castro. But there are two things that all agreed about was a good thing about his rule: safety (for non-dissidents) and medical care. DirkvdM 10:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The Soviet Union had an advanced technology in many respects, but it was very weak on mass-producing high-tech personal consumer gadgets. AnonMoos —Preceding unsigned comment added by AnonMoos (talk • contribs) 14:31, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks guys. DirkvdM: I suppose by "functional", you mean that the furniture and equipment are in adequate condition in terms of usability, but not aesthetics? What did the living spaces specifically look like?

Did the Soviet Union allow foreign tourists to wander freely around the country? If so, where can I find visitor accounts and their opinions? --Bowlhover 04:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I was in the Leningrad area in the late 1980s (as a tourist), and spoke to others who were doing more adventurous travels. The deal at that time (which I believe represented a relaxation post Gorbachev's rise) was that tourists needed to book hotels and other reservations through Intourist (the Sovient travel office) in advance, and you were therefore limited to tourist specific places. Also access to rubles was limited (officially: everyone on the street wanted dollars or Deutchmarks), and therefore you were sent to tourist restaurants, bars, and stores. That said you were free to wander anywhere, and I spoke to people who were doing driving holidays in their own cars, as long as they booked offical accomadation ahead of time and checked in at each administrative center they entered (Oblasts?). I'd google "travel adventures in the Soviet Union" or somesuch, cause everyone from the west who went there earlier seemed to be writing about it. My Mom went to Moscow in the early 60s (first civilan charter flight of Americans since the end of WWII: a medical conference) and she said it was very tightly controlled. Often people she spoke to at parties or streets were 'asked' by officials desist.T L Miles 14:03, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Sidenote: When I visited Cuba in 2004 there was also an obligation to book state hotels in advance, but there was no obligation to actually stay there - one was free to travel around. I believe the same was true in St Petersburg (former Leningrad) when I was there in the mid 1990s, but me memory fails me somewhat. DirkvdM 17:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

There are numerous wikipedians who spent a good chunk of their life in the USSR: me, mikka, Alex... but your queries need to be a tad more specific. --Ghirla^-трёп- 11:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

One place to look is Lonely Planet's thorn tree. Just Google 'USSR site:http://thorntree.lonelyplanet.com/'. One story there about difficulties around reminds me of my niece who, after having studied in Russia for about half a year had enormous problems getting permission to get to from Moscow to St Petersburg, despite speaking almost fluent Russian. Only when after days of trying she broke out in tears, all of a sudden the official she was with quickly closed the door and arranged everything for her immediately. Russians are suckers for genuine emotions. Again, that's about post-USSR Russia, but it is an indication that a society doesn't quite change overnight - old habits die hard. DirkvdM 18:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

the galveston hurricane

how is this regional feature connected to the local and global community physically, culturally, politically, symbolically, and personally? And how does this regard perceptions of the feature? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.199.115.146 (talk) 03:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

That's quite a series of questions, and I am not entirely certain how one would attach them to a hurricane, even one as deadly as Galveston Hurricane of 1900. There won't be many around who can respond personally, and I am not sure about how to look at a real hurricane as a symbol. The article noted is a start. Bielle 03:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The ultimate timeline?

I've been reading some of the historical timelines on Wikipedia and I was wondering if there exists any single consistent timeline that covers from the big bang up to the present day. Obviously not in great detail as that would be immense, but it would be great to just get a concise 'snapshot' of what the world (or certain parts of it) was like during a given era, just to see how all the different eras and events fit together and put things into context. I know I could just look up a certain date on here and be given a huge amount of info but it would be good to have it in a single continuous timeline. Sort of like a brief history of time (but not in the Stephen Hawking sense). --Ukdan999 03:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I found an example of a backward looking logarithmic timeline ---Sluzzelin talk 06:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago recently had one which was printed out and stuck on a large wall, like 30 feet long by 8 fet high. Not sure how far back it went, but it listed developments in religion, technology, politics, medicine, etc in each decade or so over an enormous span of time. A huge amount of detail. Edison 00:40, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Time served in Polish Prisons

In western countries people found guilty of crimes and sentenced to prison time will often serve less than the specified sentence due to good behaviour, remorse and other factors. Does the Polish justice system operate in the same manner? or does it rely on Eurpean Union principles for time served or in fact do Polish prisoners serve the entire sentence?

In Poland, it's just like in any other western country. From the Polish Wikipedia article about parole (pl:Warunkowe przedterminowe zwolnienie):

A prisoner is normally eligible for parole after having served half of their sentence, but not less than 6 months. If this is their second sentence, this is only after 2/3 of the sentence served; if it's the third or more time – after 3/4, in both cases after not less than a year. If you were sentenced to 25 years of prison, you're eligible after having served 15 years; if you were sentenced to life imprisonment – after 25 years. In some cases, the judge may specify a longer period you have to serve before you can apply for parole.

From the statistics I found on the Polish Penitentiary Service website:

During the second quarter of 2007, 14,489 requests for parole were filed by prisoners (or on their behalf by the prison director, prosecutor, judge or supervisor) throughout Poland. Parole was actually granted to 39.40% of them. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Is the assumption the question starts with correct? I know that in the Netherlands, a life sentence is exactly that - unless you can prove your innocence, you only ever get out of prison feet first. DirkvdM 09:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is also generally true for the Netherlands, where early release is almost automatic, the exception being life sentences, which are rarely given, and only then when they really mean it. Still, even then pardon may be granted by Royal Decree, as happened in some exceptional cases.  --Lambiam 10:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Poland's current right-wing government with Justice Minister Zbigniew Ziobro had plans, so far unsuccessful, to introduce an absolute life sentence into the Penal Code. Leading Polish experts on penal law, such as Prof. Andrzej Zoll, argue that such a punishment would be inhumane. Moreover, such a punishment would practically render the convict unpunishable and make him dangerous to prison mates and the Penitentiary Service. [1] — Kpalion^(talk) 10:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Rise and fall of French protestantism

What were the main factors leading to the rise and subsequent fall of the reformed movement in France? Pere Duchesne 10:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Have patience, someone will provide a concise analysis later. Meanwhile, and to better understand the answers forthcoming, I recommend you read the articles on Religion in France (there's a historical overview), French Wars of Religion, and Huguenot. And of course, you can click on wikilinks to learn more about the relevant people and events. ---83.79.144.184 10:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Patience is always rewarded; well, nearly always!

On the assumption that you have now read the pages linked by 83.79, Pere Duchesne, all I really have to do is to put matters in some form of political perspective. To begin with Protestantism in France, largely Calvinist in direction, made steady progress across large sections of the nation, in the urban bourgeoisie and parts of the aristocracy, appealing to people alienated by the obduracy and the complacency of the Catholic establishment. This was a time when monarchs viewed heresy as a challenge to royal authority, as much as anything else. Francis I had initially maintained an atttitude of tolerance, arising from his interest in the humanist movement. This changed in 1534 with the Affair of the Placards. In an act of astonishing insensitivity a section of the Huguenot community decided to make their presence known to the wider Catholic population by denouncing the mass in placards that appeared across France, even so far as the royal apartments. The whole question of one's faith was then thrown directly into the arena of politics, and Francis had little choice but to support the popular reaction. It was the first major phase of anti-Protestant persecution in French history, which saw the creation of the Chambre Ardente-the Burning Chamber-within the Parlement of Paris to cope with the rise in prosecutions for heresy.

French Protestantism, though its appeal increased under persecution, now acquired a distinctly political character, made all the more obvious by the nobel conversions of the 1550s. This had the effect of creating the preconditions for a series of destructive and intermitent conflicts, known as the Wars of Religion. The civil wars were helped along by the sudden death of Henry II in 1559, which saw the beginning of a prolonged period of weakness for the French crown. Atrocity and outrage became the defining characteristic of the time, illustrated at its most intense in the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of August 1572, when 30,000 Huguenots were killed across France. These wars only ended when Henry IV, himself a former Huguenot, issued the Edict of Nantes, promising official toleration of the Protestant minority, but under highly restricted conditions. A peace, yes, and a salvation for the Huguenots, but one that also embraced their future destruction. Catholicism was still the official state religion. Dissent could exist by the will of the king, just as it could be suppressed, also by the will of the king. Clio the Muse 00:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

question

the answer want to know about the aztecs?

See aztec of course?87.102.87.15 12:15, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

What is it that you want to know? Clio the Muse 00:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You have a question, and the answer is about the Aztecs, but what specifically is the question? · AndonicO ^Talk 23:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

local question - global view

Hello. From a local view (Hull University) I am somewhat amazed by the vast numbers of Japanese students visiting.. Now I realise that foreign students visit universities all over the world, but Japan has good universities of it's own yes?

Question : is it much more normal for a japanese student to take their studies abroad than in other countries, or what?87.102.87.15 12:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Your question is a bit confusing. Do you mean is it more normal for Japanese students to study abroad than for foreigners to study in Japan? The Evil Spartan 21:45, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

No real answer, just a few considerations. Life is expensive in Japan, so it would probably be cheaper for Japanese to study abroad (more than the other way around anyway). Also, the knowledge system that Japan has now is largely imported from the West, so it makes sense for them to learn it 'from the horse's mouth'. As a variation on that, with English being the lingua franca, it makes more sense for Japanese to study in an English speaking country than the other way around. DirkvdM 07:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Are those students actually enrolled in the university, or are they just learning English in an affiliated program? The English language is a significant part of the Japanese school curriculum, but a large number of Japanese seem to find it very difficult to acquire much active conversational fluency in English while still living in Japan... AnonMoos 12:02, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Good point. A nephew did such an English course in Vancouver, and there were lots of Japanese students there. Problem was that the students hung out not with locals, but with each other, picking up each other's peculiar accents, which defeats the purpose. DirkvdM 10:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

1930s press agencies and magazines

I'm currently researching the following statement:

The Hulton Getty Picture Collection (formerly the Hulton Deutsch Archive) scarcely needs an introduction. Based in London, this collection is universally acknowledged as the greastest library of photojournalism in the world. The collection comprises in excess of 15 million photographs, prints and engravings, including the work of such famous names as Keystone, Picture Post, Fox and Central Press. (HELIX (Higher Education Library for Image eXchange))

I've found our article Picture Post, but I'm drawing a blank on the others. Our disambiguation page on Keystone mentions a news agency called Keystone Switzerland, but that appears to be a subsidiary founded in 1953: "KEYSTONE was established in 1953 as the Swiss subsidiary of the American KEYSTONE View Company that was originally founded in 1891."[2]. The Keystone here could be Keystone Studios, but I'm now thinking that is it more likely this "Keystone View Company": "The Keystone View Co. was formed in 1892 in Meadville, Penn. by B.L. Singley, a former salesman at Underwood & Underwood. This company became the major publisher of stereographs in the world after 1920. In 1898 they organized their highly successful Education Department which produced boxed sets for school instruction of images and descriptive text illustrating culture, industry, commerce and politics world-wide. Although the company hired its own professional photographers, they also purchased rights to other negatives including several series of Underwood and Underwood negatives in 1912. Orders for Keystone sets continued to be filled by the company as late as 1970."[3]. On the other hand, Keystone View Company doesn't mention the Hulton Getty Picture Collection, so I'm not sure about this. 'Fox' is obviously not Fox News, but I think it could be Fox Film (one of the predecessor companies of 20th Century Fox), which produced Fox Movietone News. The real question I need help with, the one I'm drawing a blank on, is Central Press. The ubiquity of the phrase makes it hard to search for it. Can anyone help? Carcharoth 12:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I've found some more at: "the Keystone Collection, itself an amalgamation of the Keystone, Fox Photos, Central Press and the Three Lions press agencies."[4] and [5] Carcharoth 13:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Fox Photos, Ltd., was apparently U.K. based, at the address 6, Tudor Street, London, E.C.4. It was owned by George Freston, who died in 2006.[6] Central Press Photos, Ltd., was also U.K. based, with address 6–7 Gough Square, London, E.C.4.[7]  --Lambiam 21:07, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Amazing! Thanks. What did the trick? Putting "photos" in the search term? Someone should contact Egby (from that second link) and tell him that his negatives might have gone to the Keystone Collection and then to the Hulton Getty Archive. Carcharoth 22:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Keystone: I once had to write something about Bert Garai, a Hungarian journalist who founded the Keystone Press Agency, which was active in London in the 1930s. His autobiography is called The Man From Keystone (1965). He was the great-grandfather of Romola Garai. Xn4 23:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

According to this site, "Keystone Press Agency was founded in the early 1900’s in London, by Bert Garai. The Canadian office, located in Montreal was founded in 1960 by Bob Moynier, who was a staff photographer at Keystone Press Agency’s Paris office. For the last 40 years, Keystone has accumulated an extensive collection, including over 2 million black and white, and over 2 million color images. Since 1960, international news has become more and more popular, and Keystone’s philosophy has always been..." Xn4 02:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

"Talisman" painting by Henryk Siemiradzki (1843-1902)

Please consider the following paragraph from A Yankee Engineer Abroad Part II: The East (I own the copyright, so I can reproduce it here):

"We rode across the fields a mile or two to the north-west and, reaching the base of the mountains, visited the Ain es Sultan, Fountain of the Sultan, the veritable Diamond of the Desert, so beautifully painted in the Talisman3 – a large spring of pure water, overshadowed by fig-trees, sending out a considerable volume to irrigate the fields. Farther back up the mountain, a leaping stream comes sounding down the steep slope in an artificial channel. Its waters are also conveyed to the fields, being partly conducted in the aqueduct whose arches we noticed last evening. This stream enjoys the reputation of being the Fountain of Elisha, whose waters the Prophet healed of their bitterness. The ruins of a pile of buildings, possibly a convent, are found on the hill-side near the fountain, half-buried in tangled vegetation. A bold precipitous mountain overlooking it to the westward, called the Quarantania, is considered the mount of our Saviour’s forty-days’ fasting and temptation. A small chapel occupies its summit. All over the face of the cliffs are numerous little caves, the abode of visionary enthusiasts in the day when such practice was in fashion, who endeavoured, as it has somewhere been expressed, to secure their title to Heaven by making earth a Hell. This method is out of date now, and the kennels are all vacant."

Talisman, by Henryk Siemiradzki (1881). From a series of paintings illustrating ancient Roman life, painted in Italy. Here's a detail of the "talisman". --Ghirla^-трёп- 11:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I found a reproduction of the "Talisman" on the Internet, but no description. I located the museum in Russia that displays it, but there was no response to my e-mail enquiry (in English). The New York Public Library on-line research service referred me to the Polish and Russian collection, but I'm illiterate in those languages. I took a chance and tied the work to Henryk Siemiradzki in a footnote. I hope to do a revised version of the book some day and would like for someone to verify whether a not the scene described above by Frederick Hubbard in 1857 is indeed the same as in Siemiradzki's painting. Frederick Hubbard lived in New York state. Was the painting ever shown in New York City? 69.201.141.45 13:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

This representative of Academic art is little known in the West, because his paintings reside in the provincial museums of Russia or Poland. That's why I don't think it likely that the painting ever travelled from Nizhny Novgorod to New York City. For another characteristic example of his work see The Dance with Daggers. --Ghirla^-трёп- 11:09, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Some links to articles might help kick-start this: Henryk Siemiradzki, Frederick Hubbard, Elisha. Here is a link to a picture of The Talisman. Here is something explaining Elisha's Fountain. Carcharoth 13:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I've also found lots of references to The Talisman a novel written in 1825 by Sir Walter Scott. He describes the fountain at length. Have a look at this online text here: ""It is called in the Arabic language," answered the Saracen, "by a name which signifies the Diamond of the Desert."" It is a stretch, but I think Hubbard (the Yankee Engineer Abroad) is referring either to the book (which is using words to paint the scene), or, more likely, a painting inspired by the book, or maybe even published in the book. Carcharoth 13:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right. Even though F. Hubbard compliled his notes years after his travels (he died in NYC in 1895) it is more likely that he is referring to Scott's book (1825) rather than the painting (1880's). He refers to Sir Walter Scott in other places in the book. On re-examining the painting, it seems more likely that "the talisman" refers to a charm being held by the girl and she is not leaning against the wall of a spring. Thanks.69.201.141.45 14:46, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

Scott went to the Holy Land and saw for himself the place he described. Xn4 19:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Can rhetoric silence truth?

from the age of the sophist to that of quantum mechanics,we appear to be just delving in rhetorics,can the west take the time out and prove it not so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.94.9.216 (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The case of quantum mechanics is a nice one for this — the Copenhagen interpretation's focus on language is specifically meant to imply that the limits of truth lie in perception, and that an overly realist approach to the world is not, in fact, truth. The enormous success of quantum mechanics in describing the world — success over more realist attempts — is a strong argument that indeed, epistemology ("how we know") must be given a strong, and sometimes primary, role in talking about ontology ("what is"). Most attempts to jettison epistemological discussions or limitations (what I am assuming you are calling "rhetoric") are failures, and the assertion of "truth" they provide illusory. Better to know what you don't know that to think you know everything, I would argue.

So I wouldn't include quantum mechanics in your railing against rhetoric or subjectivity. I probably wouldn't include philosophy, either. However if you want to argue that deconstructionism and rhetoric in places like politics and the courts is having an overall net negative effect on the operation of at least American society, I would probably agree, but I would argue that such was not really a new thing. The deconstruction of scientific facts in the political and legal arena has been going on for at least a hundred years, probably longer. --24.147.86.187 15:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

one would believe that general relativity comes into play somewhere somehow in this multi-quantum world.truth ultimately wills out, but do we with all our sophisticated rhetoric suppress the elusive and life giving truth —Preceding better to understand what you dont know than to say you do unsigned comment added by 59.94.9.125 (talk) 17:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you lost me on that last one there, the "elusive and life giving truth." There's little doubt that the quantum mechanical description of the world is in many ways largely accurate, even if it is unintuitive and makes large claims about what is knowable in physics.--24.147.86.187 21:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Kjvenus! Is that you? What happened to Garb wire?  --Lambiam 21:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

! Deconstruction is over. The Mai 68 generation's pique produced some interesting digressions, but can rhetoric silence truth? Truth? Truth? Rhetoric and "truth" are neither opposed nor antithetical. Can sophistry obscure a truth that would otherwise appear? Sure. Can such truths break out anyway? You betcha. Are we doomed to language? 'Fraid so. Are we limited by language? In social and political action, seems like it. Are these constructions limiting and meaningful? As objects, they certainly are, and as operative modes of life, they're inescapable and so they might as well be called meaningful. To posit a truth that is outside of rhetoric is a statement of faith. I have no problem with such faith, myself, but Wittgenstein said that we are like the fly in the bottle -- going around and around and around and never going up out the top of the bottle. Is there an escape from such determinism to the non-determined thing that we have no words for? Well, sure seems like it, if we suppose that all those mystics aren't liars. Is there a way to use language's toys to argue someone to it? You can try, if you like, but I'm with Kierkegaard on this one: leap of faith or happiness in the bottle. Geogre 14:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Prora the Nazi holiday camp

I came across your page on Prora by chance. Is there any political background to this project? Captainhardy 16:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It could be described as a 'butlins' for aryans. - It was part fo the Strength Through Joy program and as such part of the apparatus of the state political philosophy - but that's already mentioned in the article - perhaps you wanted more information...?83.100.249.228 17:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

(after unnoticed e.c.) Indeed there is. It was part of the Nazi program Kraft durch Freude ("health through strength strength through joy"), which had the self-declared goal of creating "a National Socialist Volksgemeinschaft ("people's community") and the perfection and refinement of the German people." It aimed to reach this goal by organizing tight and thoroughly structured recreational programs. Robert Ley, one of KdF's founders, quoted Hitler: "I wish that the worker be granted a sufficient holiday and that everything is done, in order to let this holiday as well all other leisure time to be truly recreational. I wish this, because I want a determined people with strong nerves, for truly great politics can only be achieved with a people that keeps its nerves."

Another less ideological goal was to boost the German economy by stimulating the tourist industry out of its slump from the 1920s, and it was quite successful up until around the outbreak of World War II. By 1934, over two million Germans had participated on a KdF trip, by 1939 the reported numbers lay around 43 million people. The Nazis also sought to attract tourists from abroad, a task performed by Hermann Esser, one of the Ministry for Popular Enlightenment and Propaganda's secretaries. A series of multilingual and colorful brochures, titled "Deutschland", advertised Germany as a peaceful, idyllic, and progressive country, on one occasion even portraying the ministry's boss, Joseph Goebbels, grinning and hamming in an unlikely photo series of the Cologne carnival. KdF more or less collapsed in 1939, and several projects, such as Prora, never got completed. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely Kraft durch Freude translates as "strength through joy", as in the article? Algebraist 18:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Surely it does, Algebraist, amended. Thanks for pointing out my inexplicable error. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Those buildings look like tenements to me, who would want to go on vacation in such a drab place ? And, as for tourism, I can't see Nazi Germany attracting many foreigners (perhaps a few Austrians), which is who they really needed to help the economy. StuRat 18:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure a derelict shell gives a true impression of what it would have been like - even if it had ever been finished, that said I'm not that keen either..83.100.249.228 20:43, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, admittedly, Prora in particular was a less luxurious design, even for 1930's tastes, and didn't primarily target tourists from abroad. Ley wrote that Prora was originally Hitler's idea too. He wanted a gigantic sea resort, the "most mighty and large one to ever have existed", holding 20,000 beds. In the middle, he wanted a massive building. At the same time, Hitler wanted it to be convertible into a military hospital in case of war. Ley appointed Clemens Klotz (interesting aptronym, as "Klotz" means "block" and is also a derogatory word for massive cubic buildings). Hitler insisted that the plans of a massive indoor arena by architect Erich (Wilhelm Julius Freiherr Gans Edler Herr zu) Putlitz be included. As mentioned in the article, the entire combined design won the Grand Prix for Architecture in Paris in 1937, so it seems not every non-German person deemed it that ugly at the time. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:38, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

It certainly looks functional, but possibly a little more 'luxurious' than the early camps set up by Butlin! And it certainly dwarfs Butlin in the sheer scale of its ambition. Putlitz's 'Festival Hall' was intended to be able to accomodate all 20,000 guests at the same time. Those parts of the complex that were completed were used as a temporary shelter for people made homeless by the air raids on Hamburg. The Soviets later used it as a barracks. After the formation of the German Democratic Republic part of it was used as an army holiday centre, by the name of the Walter Ulbricht Home. What remains now has a formal heritage listing. Ah, well-Heil, die Heil! Clio the Muse 01:03, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The ox in the belfry. (il bue nel campanile da Giotto)

I recall being told that the locals of Florence call the low-toned bell in Giotto's campanile "il bue," but have not been able to verify this. Is it true?69.201.141.45 17:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

I found nothing either. This site lists the bells' names and calls the heaviest one Il campanone ("the big bell") or Santa Reparata. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I was told this by my Italian teacher, Mary Borelli (circa 1968). She was a Scotswoman, but her husband, Luigi, was native Italian. They travelled extensively through Italy. I also remember her telling the class of coming across a remote town (in the mountains, I think) in which the people still pronounced "cento" with the "c" sounding as the Latin "c". A decade later I heard the big bell in the campanile in Florence. To me it indeed sounded like the braying of a bull (I've never heard an ox). It could be that the lower classes referred to it as "il bue," while the the "polite" classes referred to "il campanone." It is interesting how some "trivial" things stick in the mind while larger ones escape. Teachers are often surprised at what their students remember. 69.201.141.45 12:40, 4 September 2007 (UTC)Linnaeus

nougat,almonds - european culture

Background: a european based supermarket has opened near me (UK) recently - many of the products are sourced from europe..

I'm amazed at the number of products that contain nougat for examples - biscuits with nougat centres, breakfast cereals with nougat chunks, ice cream with nougat in - this is most un British.

Also Almonds - there is practically a whole row devoted to almond products - every other biscuit product contains almonds or is made from almonds..

Is love of almonds/nougat a continental european obsession? Why do so many products contain almonds - are there vast almond forests in the Bavarian alps producing a massive almond surplus perhaps. Or perhaps it is the opposite: do the bosses at lidl believe that the British are extremely fond of chewy nut based foodstuffs!?

Can anyone provide any insight, thanks.83.100.249.228 18:10, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, just to get us started, here's the article on what happens when Continental Europeans mix the nougat and the almonds together: Turrón. Wareh 18:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Nougat is not a german specialty its produced there and popular (amongst other sorts of chocolat) but its not originally from Germany.--Tresckow 02:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Nougat is quite popular in France, but I'm not sure if it originated there. The article isn't very specific. :/ · AndonicO ^Talk 23:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

St. George and England

What is the background to the cult of St. George? Tower Raven 18:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a page Saint George that gives some background informations - was it for a specific country?83.100.249.228 20:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a lengthy article at Saint George. Which cult do you mean? He is very popular especially in the east, but presumably you mean England...well, St. George was one of the saints whom the First Crusaders saw helping them, so his cult was also popular in the crusader states. The English picked him up and brought him back after the Third Crusade. Adam Bishop 20:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes it pays to read the header. "England" was mentioned there.  :) -- JackofOz 01:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

So it does!

Actually, contrary to the point made in the Wikipedia piece on England and St. George, traces of the cult date right back to Anglo-Saxon times. He appears as early as the ninth century in rituals at Durham, and in a tenth century martyrology. There is evidence, moreover, of pre-Conquest foundations dedicated to St. George: at Fordingham in Dorset, at Thetford, Southwark and Doncaster. So he was already familiar to the English well before the Crusades, though it is not until the reign of Edward III that emerges as the most important national saint, replacing Edward the Confessor It is probably more accurate to say that the cult was identified specifically with the monarchy, rather than England as a whole. Edward I was the first king to display St. George's banner alongside those of Edmund the Martyr and St. Edward.

By the reign of Edward III he had definately emerged as a 'god of battles', in much the same fashion as Saintiago Matamoros in Spain. In 1351 it was written "The English nation...call upon Saint George, as being their special patron, especially in war." In this regard he was certainly more appealing than the unwarlike Confessor or St. Edmund, who had been defeated and subsequently killed by the Danes. But with the succession of Richard II George once again slipped down the ranks. Richard had little of his grandfather's warlike ambitions, and returned to the veneration of the two native saints. George was called back to national prominence during the Wars of the Roses, when his name was invoked by both sides in the contest. It was also at this time that his cult spread across the nation at large. Almost a hundred wall paintings featuring the saint date from the fifteenth century, almost always showing him in combat with the dragon. He also survives in pilgrim badges. His secular importance was finally confirmed by the English Reformation; for he alone survived the suppression of the cult of saints, which not even the Virgin herself had been able to do.

Now, I have a question. I see that a claim is made in the Wikipedia page that St. George was 'demoted' by Pope Leo XIII in 1893 as the patron saint of England and replaced by Saint Peter! I had no idea that Popes were ever in the business of promoting and demoting national saints. Besides, nobody seems to have told the English! A citation request has been put against this statement; but these things, as I am sure many of you are aware, can hang around forever and a day. I need to know if this is true or not, or if it is just a subtle piece of vandalism? Clio the Muse 02:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Curious. I've never heard of this, Clio. Saint Peter#Patronage makes no mention of it, and googling produces only one source - our article. I suspect it's either vandalism, or a genuine mistake on the part of the editor who posted this. -- JackofOz 02:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that it's any of the pope's business who we have as our Patron Saint. DuncanHill 18:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's the Pope's business who he has as England's patron saint, just as it's the Pope's business who he has as saints at all. I could understand if such a thing happened, and I have often heard it claimed, since George is fairly mythological and the emphasis lately (in the Catholic Church sense of 'lately') has been on people who pretty definitely existed. You can, of course, have anyone you like as your patron saint, and declare anyone you like to be a saint, but how many people will follow you? If the government wanted to declare someone as a patron saint of England, they could. Quite what this would mean, I don't know. To be honest, your comment is really quite odd Duncan. Skittle 23:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You are, of course, quite right, Skittle: that saints 'made' by the church can also be 'unmade', if that makes sense. But I do not believe that the Vatican has ever sanctioned, or created, national saints: saints who were intended to be identified with a given country. Patron saints are created for historical and political reasons; so it was with James and Spain; and so it was with George and England. Even now, living in a secular world, English people, whether Catholic, Protestant or of no religion at all, understand the significance and symbolism of St. George and England. I confess that I myself have become more and more aware over the last few years of a growing sense of 'Englishness', brought on in part by Scottish and Welsh devolution: the English flag is ever more evident and people now celebrate St. George's Day with an a new enthusiasm; I do, and so do my friends. The Pope may demote or promote all the saints he wishes; but he could not end the link between George and England. So once again I pose my question: where does the contention about Leo XIII come from? I now believe this to be quite spurious. Clio the Muse 00:39, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean. It's just that, since the whole deal of 'official' saints and patron saints is a Catholic thing, to say it's none of the Pope's business is really quite odd. That George is popularly considered the patron saint of England is, of course, unaffected and people are free to make their mascots what they want. Who the English have as their 'mascot' patron saint by no means has to match anything any church says, but what the Catholic Church says about these things is the church's business. I have often heard that many saints were 'removed' in the last century or so for being mythological, and that some were restored. However, I have never seen any authoritive evidence that this was the case. So it wouldn't surprise me, but it seems unsupported. Skittle 12:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The Catholic Encyclopedia calls him patron of England in the very first sentence of its article on Saint George,[8] while the Catholic Community Forum lists England as one of the beneficiaries of George's extensive patronage.[9] While not spealing ex cathedra, they are generally reliable sources in doctrinary matters.  --Lambiam 17:56, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps Duncan has it in mind that "The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of England" - Article thirty-seven of the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563, which still have the force of law so far as the Church of England is concerned. Lambiam has raised a real doubt as to whether Pope Leo XIII did downgrade George from the Roman Catholic point of view. The Catholic Encyclopedia postdates Leo. I see someone has added the {{Fact}} template to that statement in the Saint George article, to challenge it, and I hope someone will get to the bottom of this for us. Xn4 00:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The other part of the equation is that Pope John Paul II is supposed to have restored St George as patron saint in 2000. Does anyone remember anything about this in the media at that time? I certainly don't, and I think it's something that would have been widely reported in the anglophone world. Google produces nothing about it. The edit that's sparked this discussion is this one, from almost a year ago. Amazing that this hasn't been challenged till now. The anonymous editor only ever made a handful of WP edits - all in September 2006 - then got pissed off by something, and has never come back. -- JackofOz 13:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I would not wish this issue to pass by default, and I do not personally believe that the citation request will ever be answered. We are now in a position where people could claim that St. Peter is the patron saint of England because the Pope and Wikipedia say so; and as we know both are infallible! So, how should I proceed? Would it be best to put this whole discussion on the article's talk page with an introductory comment, leaving it for a day or so for a possible response, and then making the changes? Clio the Muse 23:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Smart idea, Clio! Xn4 05:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Done! Clio the Muse 22:41, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Picture of General Knyphausen

Can you help me find a picture of General Knyphausen of the American Revolution? Thanks!!!!!67.120.75.214 19:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

If all else fails, try the Knyphausen family at Schloss Lütetsburg - that's at Lütetsburg in Germany. Xn4 20:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

US BANKING System Structure

I am looking to understand the US banking structure system. My frame of reference is the Canadian banking system and I want to understand the differences/similarities between the two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.217.61 (talk) 20:13, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Try comparing Banking in Canada with Banking in the United States. --Halcatalyst 02:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Appalachian State v. Michigan

I got a question about the recent upset between app state and michigan. I thought that app was a division II team...so why are they playing division I teams? I went to the article on WP and it said that their confrence got bumbed up to division I, but when I go to other internet sites it still says that SoCon is a d-II confrence. So depending on what's right...why did they play michigan, or what division is the new conference in? - Rentastrawberry 21:22, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that Appalachian State is a division IAA team (pronounced One Double A). That is a subdivision of Division I. Occasionally division II teams play IAA teams, and occasionally IAA teams play IA (the top tier) teams. Please note that the NCAA recently changed the name of the top two divisions to something funny like "Bowl Championship Division" and "Tournament Division". The Evil Spartan 21:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Division I-A is now the Division I Football Bowl Subdivision, while Division I-AA is now the Division I Football Championship Subdivision. As Evil Spartan pointed out, there's no rule saying you can't play teams outside of your division. -- Mwalcoff 23:37, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Are there any chromatically tuned brass or woodwind instruments?

I'm interested in playing exotic scales, and I was wondering if there are any chromatic brass or woodwind instruments. So far the only thing I've found is the melodica, but it seems to be mainly for solos, and I'd like to have something more flexible. I know that there are chromatic harmonicas, but the melodica seems superior.

Thanks for any help or suggestions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.148.98 (talk) 23:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how to answer that, exactly, and someone will, of course, but slide instruments have the potential for chromatic notes, and Ornette Coleman does harmolodic scales with a conventional trumpet. I realize that neither of these are chromatically tuned instruments but, instead, musicians who are overcoming their instruments to achieve notes between the notes, but it is possible. Those are masters, of course, and that's not what you were asking about. Geogre 02:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Neither the harmonica nor the melodica are brass or woodwind isntruments, but free reed aerophones. I guess you're not looking for those aerophones which don't use breath, but other means for the air flow instead. Otherwise, of course, there's a great selection of chromatically tuned instruments to choose from (organ, harmonium, chromatic button accordions, and so forth). As Geogre pointed out, woodwind and brass instruments are not "chromatically tuned" in that sense, most change their notes (whether chromatic, microtonal or other) by a combination of altering the length of the air column and the harmonic within the same resonator. Some, such as the bagpipe, do have multiple resonators, and Adolphe Sax created several cornets with 6 or 7, and even a trumpet in C with 13 Bells [10], but these don't qualify as chromatically tuned brass instruments either. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the central problem here is that most wind instruments have a single source for the notes (tube or whatever). Harmonicas and organs have one for each note, so you can make as many as you like and therefore any scale you like. But with a single sound-source (is there a proper name for that?) you have to work with overtones. That works well for octaves, fifths, thirds and such, but a diminished fifth is based on such a high overtone that it would probably be very hard to play (I imagine - I don't play wind instruments). It also wouldn't sound too good in conjunction with other instruments that don't use the same fundamental frequency or equally tempered instruments. A clever mix of sound sources with different fundamental frequencies might solve that. Don't know if such a thing exists, though. DirkvdM 07:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, upon reflection, I guess you could say that modern Western woodwind instruments such as the clarinet, bassoon or flute are chromatically tuned, in the sense that the positioning and size of holes, pads and keys are meticulously made to reproduce chromatic scales as precisely as possible. What confuses me a bit is that the questioner is looking for a chromatically tuned instrument to perform exotic scales. The most exotic scales to Western ears include quarter tones, microtuning or other systems outside equal temperament, so the melodica, or any other "chromatic" instrument not allowing for controlled playing of tones between the discreet chromatic steps seems a worse choice than the saxophone e.g., which let's you play chromatical and quarter-tone or other scales (with enough practice of embouchure and fingering techniques such as semi-closing pads etc.) ---Sluzzelin talk 08:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

My imp of the perverse keeps telling me to suggest a fretless guitar or the use of inexpensive electronic processing and amplification. Down, imp, down. Geogre 14:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

How about an EWI then, you can tune it as you like. And our fretless is the trombone! I did finally think of the pan flute, a woodwind with multiple resonators, sometimes tuned chromatically. ---Sluzzelin talk 17:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Resonator! That's the word I was looking for. Thanks. DirkvdM 10:30, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Your anonymous questioner is interested in playing scales like these: http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/exotic-scales.txt. (Sorry for the anonymity, I'm not very familiar with the syntax of Wikipedia.) Tigerthink 03:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless I'm missing something, all those notes (and thus, all those scales) can be played on pretty standard orchestral instruments. I'm struggling to think of an instrument outside of percussion on which it wouldn't be possible to play these scales; I suppose it would be tricky on a penny whistle. (And you can sign by typing ~~~~ at the end of your comment. It will add your IP address and the date/time you made the comment if you're not signed in. If you're signed in it will put your username and the date/time you made the comment, just like at the end of my comment here!) What instruments can you already play? Skittle 20:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't feel good at any instrument. I started on guitar, but I couldn't find a method for sitting. I eventually came to the conclusion that the problem wasn't with me, but the guitar. See http://buildingtheergonomicguitar.com/2006/10/ergonomic-guitar-design-why-resistance.html#comments. I couldn't find an ergonomic guitar in my price range and I didn't want to build one. I also started on keyboard at a certain point, but I felt like I would never be as good as a pianist who had started at seven. I didn't want to learn to play with two hands, because I figured that would involve learning a lot of other people's songs, which did not and does not seem very appealing. (I do almost zero conventional practicing, choosing instead to improvise and sometimes make recordings of stuff I come up with.) Right now, I'm looking for an instrument that is more compatible with my level of dedication. I borrowed a recorder, but it seems like you'd have to do a lot of rote work to memorize all the fingerings. So the melodica has looked really attractive: easy to learn, expressive, and obscure (always a plus for me. I don't understand the appeal of signature instruments.) Tigerthink 03:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Thinking about it, do you want to know an instrument that you could buy quite cheaply and learn quite easily to play these scales? I'm not sure that you'd better a recorder or a small keyboard for that, although you could also use a guitar or ukelele. If you're looking to invest more time and money in an instrument, you could pick just about any orchestral instrument. So: oboe, clarinet, trumpet, saxophone, flute, piccolo, cor anglais, bassoon, etc. Skittle 20:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Well here on the clarinet page (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Clarinet#Usage_and_repertoire_of_the_clarinet) it talks about clarinets in different keys. So how do keys work for wind instruments? Tigerthink 03:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)