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October 23

The culture page mentions the origins of polyphony which conflicts with the polyphony page itself.

the culture page states: "Pygmy music has been polyphonic well before their discovery by non-African explorers of the Baka, Aka, Efe, and other foragers of the Central African forests, in the 1200s, which is at least 200 years before polyphony developed in Europe. Note the multiple lines of singers and dancers. The motifs are independent, with theme and variation interweaving. This type of music is thought to be the first expression of polyphony in world music." With the reference being a documentary film.

The polyphony page states: "Although the exact origins of polyphony in the Western church traditions are unknown, the treatises Musica enchiriadis and Scolica enchiriadis, both dating from c. 900, are usually considered the oldest extant written examples of polyphony." Which is more than 200 years prior. I also don't see the relevant references required to make a claim for the development of polyphony being so much earlier in pygmy music. Reference in question: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Song_from_the_Forest Azlowe (talk) 08:54, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. Nanonic (talk) 16:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hiu Azlowe. I don't myself think there is necessarily a contradiction.

The Culture photo caption refers to the development of European polyphony, which it appears to indirectly date to the 1400s (though the language could be clearer), and contrasts it to a Pygmy cultural practice apparently well established by the 1200s.

Yes but my point is, who recorded pygmy song in 1200? Most nomadic hunter-gatherers are not literate. Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Polyphony passage refers to the oldest known examples of the former, dating them to ca. 900. A thing can be invented, but remain relatively undeveloped for a period before its further spread (consider Leonardo's sketch in the 1480s of a helicopter, a full-size example of which first actually flew in 1907).

Those written examples, theoretical 'textbook' suggestions, may not have been widely taken up, performed and enlarged on until much later – the further pre-14th century examples the article mentions are sparse. You will notice that the Polyphony article explains that the Church disapproved of polyphony, and outright banned it in the early 14th century.

I agree that the assertion about Pigmy music polyphony could stand to be better sourced. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 07:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder how it can be proved that this music originated in the 13th century, if it was not written down at the time? Alansplodge (talk) 14:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand, if polyphony was observed that long ago in pygmy music, who knows how far back it goes in their culture? Possibly many millennia? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:30, 24 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but my point is, how do we know Pygmy polyphony existed in 1200? The article doesn't say. Alansplodge (talk) 11:34, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The caption in the Culture article says in part:

". . . their discovery by non-African explorers of the Baka, Aka, Efe, and other foragers of the Central African forests, in the 1200s. . .".

Presumably those non-African explorers remarked on their music. Now we need to know who these alleged explorers were. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 17:22, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not Europeans in 1200, nor Chinese. Ibn Battuta (died 1369) apparently didn't make it far enough south to encounter any Pygmies, as far as I can tell. That doesn't leave a host of possibilities. Alansplodge (talk) 12:27, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A quote from the voyage report of the explorers: To our great Wonderment theſe primitive Savages engaged in the Art of polyphonical Musicke Centuryes before we in the civilised West would developpe the Concept. --Lambiam 18:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Lambiam, which explorers are we talking about? And how would they know that an oral tradition was centuries old and not a couple of generations? Alansplodge (talk) 12:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They were the non-African explorers through whose reports we now know about the pre-1200 polyphonic Pygmy music. The text above is a reasoned reconstruction of the relevant part of the actual original reports, which (as well as the identities of the explorers) have, regrettably, been lost to history. Only by a prescient insight in the development of Western music could these explorers name their discovery as being polyphonical Musicke. --Lambiam 18:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see your drift now. Alansplodge (talk) 20:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The chess endgame of rook, bishop, and wrong rook pawn versus rook

	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h
8									8
7									7
6									6
5									5
4									4
3									3
2									2
1									1
	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h

Is there a good source on the specific case of this endgame when the pawn is on R7 and the enemy king is blocking it (something like the diagram)? (If the pawn were anywhere else, this would be a lot easier.) It seems from playing with the tablebase and Stockfish that you need to march the king toward the pawn, using the mate threats thus created to force the enemy rook to its back rank, and then give up the pawn at the right moment to force a favourable R+B vs R ending that can be converted to Philidor's position. But I would be interested to see if this is discussed in detail in some endgame manual. (Alas, Müller and Lamprecht spend less than a page on it.) Double sharp (talk) 12:09, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]