Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Computing/2009 October 3

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October 3

Per row / per column table border properties and CSS.

Resolved

I am editing an article on my MediaWiki server and I have been unsuccessfuly trying for days now to have my table show the way I want. I would be grateful for some advice.

With the following table definition:

{| class="BridgeExampleTable" width="100%" 
! width=7% align="center" | E 
! width=7% align="center" | S
! width=7% align="center" | O 
! width=7% align="center" | N
! width=72% align="left" | Description
|- 
| align="center" | 1SA
| align="center" | P
| align="center" | 2{{C}} 
| align="center" | P 
| align="left" rowspan=2 | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que {{P}}.
|- 
| align="center" | 2{{P}}
| align="center" | P
| align="center" | P
| align="center" | 2SA 
|- 
| align="center" | 1SA
| align="center" | P
| align="center" | P 
| align="center" | 2SA 
| align="left" | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées.
|}

and the following css (in MediaWiki:Common.css):

table.BridgeExampleTable {
  border-style: solid;
  border-width: thin;
  border-color: black;
  border-collapse: collapse;
}

table.BridgeExampleTable th {
  border-style: solid;
  border-width: thin;
  border-collapse: collapse;
  padding-left: 5px;
  padding-right: 5px;
  background-color:#E6E6E6;
}
table.BridgeExampleTable td {
  padding-left: 5px;
  padding-right: 5px;
  background-color:#F6F6F6;
}

I get the following look (sorry, I just created an account here, I cannot upload images):

 +-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------+
 |   E   |   S   |   O   |   N    | Description:                                |
 |-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P       2♥      P                                                  |
 |                                   5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠.|
 |   2♠      P       P      2SA                                                 |
 |   1SA     P       P      2SA      5-5, couleurs non-déterminées              |
 +------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

I would like the borders to be like this:

 +-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------+
 |   E   |   S   |   O   |   N    | Description:                                |
 |-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P       2♥      P    |                                             |
 |                                | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠. |
 |   2♠      P       P       2SA  |                                             |
 |--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P      P       2SA   | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées               |
 +--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+

• Is there a way to specify borders on the Description column in the style sheet?
• How can I force a border on the bottom of the rows, respecting the fact that the Description column can span several rows while the E, S, O, N columns always span one row? Jacerator (talk) 02:44, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Those BridgeExampleTable classes do not exist, and you can't define classes in a page. Are you copying this from another wiki? Anyway, you will have to specify the CSS for each cell:

E	S	O	N	Description
1SA	P	2♥	P	5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠.
2♠	P	P	2SA
1SA	P	P	2SA	5-5, couleurs non-déterminées.

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 04:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If all your table.BridgeExampleTable have the same amount of rows and columns (or –at least– you want make special formatting at the same position) you can use css rules like these:

table.BridgeExampleTable tr:first-child {
<!-- code for 1-st row format -->
}

table.BridgeExampleTable tr:first-child + tr {
<!-- code for 2-nd row format -->
}

table.BridgeExampleTable tr:first-child + tr + tr {
<!-- code for 3-rd row format -->
}

<!-- and so on for 4-th, 5-th, ... -->

table.BridgeExampleTable tr td:first-child {
<!-- code for cells in 1-st column format -->
}

table.BridgeExampleTable tr td:first-child + td {
<!-- code for cells in 2-nd column format -->
}

<!-- and so on for 3-rd, 4-th, ... -->

-- Codicorumus  « msg 12:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Brilliant! I am halfway there now... My Description column now gets a border like I wanted it to. The situation with the rows is a bit more complicated though. My tables can have an arbitrary number of rows, where my E,S,O,N columns always have rowspan=1 and the description column can have any rowspan, normally 1, 2 or 3. I would like to put a horizontal line in E,S,O,N to match the horizontal line in the description column:

Now I have for instance:

 +-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------+
 |   E   |   S   |   O   |   N    | Description:                                |
 |-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P       2♥      P    |                                             |
 |                                | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠. |
 |   2♠      P       P       2SA  |                                             |
 |                                +---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P      P       2SA   | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées               |
 |                                +---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P       2♥      P    |                                             |
 |                                | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠. |
 |   2♠      P       P       2SA  |                                             |
 |                                +---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P      P       2SA   | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées               |
 +--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+

And would like to get:

 +-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------+
 |   E   |   S   |   O   |   N    | Description:                                |
 |-------+-------+-------+--------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P       2♥      P    |                                             |
 |                                | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠. |
 |   2♠      P       P       2SA  |                                             |
 |--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P      P       2SA   | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées               |
 |--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P       2♥      P    |                                             |
 |                                | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées autres que ♠. |
 |   2♠      P       P       2SA  |                                             |
 |--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------|
 |   1SA     P      P       2SA   | 5-5, couleurs non-déterminées               |
 +--------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+

By the way, the BridgeExampleTable class is defined on my MediaWiki server. Jacek (talk) 15:46, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

If the horizontal borders that span all the row are in fixed positions (even if tables don't have the same number of rows), You can use the code I wrote before, otherwise You must put the format in the wiki table (or with style="..." or with class="..." in the line beginning with the wikicode |-, wich can hold the formatting code for the HTML <tr> element). You can get rid even of all those align="center" (putting the code in per column css rules) and of rowspan=2 (setting it in a per row & column position css rule or via new classes – something like rowspanning-1, rowspanning-2, rowspanning-3). -- Codicorumus  « msg 16:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Following your advice, I moved all the alignment rules to the .css. Then, realizing that I can tell a row which needs a horizontal border on top by the fact that it has a value in the description column, I made the following template, which did the trick:

<noinclude>BETR stands for Bridge Example Table Row</noinclude>
|- {{#if: {{{D|}}} | style="border-top-style:solid; border-top-width:thin" }}
| {{{E}}}
| {{{S}}}
| {{{O}}} 
| {{{N}}} {{#if: {{{D|}}} | <nowiki />
{{!}} rowspan={{{rspn|1}}} {{!}}{{{D}}} }}

Thank you very much for your help! Jacek (talk) 21:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

It was an interesting issue, thanks to you too. -- Codicorumus  « msg 11:27, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia Usage - Representational Map for most popular/most frequently accessed pages

Hello there,

Help!

I'm quite lost, and am not even sure if this is the right place to ask this question. The rationale for asking this question here might be apparent in a moment though:

About a year ago, something appeared either in New Scientist or the general-science mag Discover regarding a very neat map which showed icons for Wikipedia for subject matter that was frequently accessed. What made this conceptual map interesting is that the icons were represented in varying sizes, on a combined map all at once, according to the frequency of 'hits'. It was a colorful and interesting thing and apparently linked to a new concept in usage estimations/reporting/collecting.

Would anyone possibly know what this was, where it could be, and if anything new has been done with that sort of thing lately? I apologize for my garbled question; I'm not quite sure what this map-thing is *called*, other than how I've described it.

My sincere thanks, Ariel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.233.167.15 (talk) 04:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Such a map seems unlikely; the Wikimedia Foundation has a policy of not officially tracking read-only page accesses. I recall somewhere the justification was because, unlike a commercial site that tries to market stuff to its users, "they don't care who reads the pages." (I'm unable to find a link to attribute this to anywhere, but I think it was a speech by Jimmy Wales). IP-based read-access logs are stored temporarily for technical and network-traffic monitoring purposes but are deleted "after a set period." Nimur (talk) 22:36, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmm? I'm not really sure if I understand your or the IP but the WMF definitely allows info on page accesses to be collected e.g. [1] "Wikipedia:Reference_Desk/Computing has been viewed 14100 times in 200908". There is also a bunch of other statistics collected see Wikipedia:Statistics for more info. There's no user tracking, for example we don't know if someone visiting Penis is likely to later visited Lame or Child. I believe there's also no current collation stats on other user details, e.g. are people using Safari more likely to visit penis then people using IE nor on geolocation details, e.g. are IPs from the US more likely to visit penis then IPs from Ireland. And definitely it's not possible for an external party to view logs revealing what individual IPs visit. Nil Einne (talk) 01:33, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Graphics card / Display problem

I have a two-year old Jetway motherboard with an AMD690G chipset (integrated graphics), and AMD Athlon 4000+ at 2100 Mhz and a LCD monitor. Recently, the graphics system has been giving problems, and searching Google leads me to believe that the probem is with the graphics chip in the moterboard. My budget is equivalent to USD 100 to USD 150.

1. Will buying a graphics card (I am looking at the GeForce GTX 260 series currently) solve the problem?
2. The alternative is to change the motherboard itself. If I change the motherboard to something with integrated graphics, in this price range, is there some model that supports my outdated processor, without itself being outdated?

I am trying to maximize value-for-money, and which of the above options is better in that regard?

--Masatran (talk) 04:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

GTX260 is an overkill for your setup. If you are absolutely sure it only affects the integrated graphics of your motherboard, get a ATI 4670/4770 - good performance, lower price and low power draw since you probably don't have a beefy PSU. --11:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the GTX260 is overkill - if you were perfectly happy with your motherboard graphics - then you'll be more than happy with a much cheaper graphics board than that! I would certainly advise going with a cheaper option because there is a chance (not a huge chance - but a chance) that your problem wasn't the graphics chip after all so you should hold some cash in reserve in case you're going to have to replace comething else. And it's quite likely that you'll need a bigger power supply if you buy a top-of-the-line graphics board. What size is the power supply in your machine right now? SteveBaker (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I bought my computer piece-by-piece and got it assembled, the SMPS came with the cabinet, and the cabinet was a standard-size, mid-price one (as of 2007). I'll open it up and look up the power rating soon.

I'm planning to buy a 1920x1200 or such monitor soon, so a graphics card will improve the DVD-watching experience, right?

Most of the GeForce stuff on Amazon appears to be sold by EVGA, doesn't NVidia sell these things itself? What about ATI in this regard? The 4770 appears to be availabe on Amazon from Sapphire, etc. but not from ATI.

I heard sometime back that NVidia graphics works better with Intel processors, and ATI with AMD, is this actually true?

I use Linux (64-bit), is ATI or NVidia better supported on this? I prefer free drivers but I don't insist on it.

Any idea how to determine without doubt whether the problem is with the motherboard or the monitor? I don't have any other monitors but my monitor works fine when connected to the output from a laptop. The problem is that the monitor flickers every five seconds or so, with the display showing up only for a fraction of a second in this five seconds. It is a Viewsonic X series LCD. Since the problem starts with the BIOS output, it cannot be a software issue.

--Masatran (talk) 16:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't matter whether you have an Intel or AMD processor unless you are considering something like SLI/Crossfire. ATI do sell graphics cards themselves. However these will often be more expensive with little advantage. Note that the graphics cards ATI sells will be made by an OEM usually Sapphire the only difference is that you can get official support from ATI. Also, while I don't live in the US, I don't believe Amazon is generally a good place to shop for computer components for. I suggest you look at something like Newegg. Also it is probably somewhat unlikely you will see much difference between your current graphics card and a new one if all you are doing is watching DVDs. The Windows drivers do provide some post processing options like vector adaptive deinterlacing which are useful in some circumstances for SD content but not so much for most DVDs and you achieve a similar result in software. Also I'm somewhat doubtful you'd see much of a difference in what I presume is a smallish monitor anyway (21 inch?). Technically the shader or GPGPU power could be used for some fancy upscaling but my own experience and reading with this is most of the current options aren't that great and are Windows and proprietary. There is some work on this in the open source community but a lot of it is on CPU not GPU. And again, I should repeat I'm not sure how much you will notice the difference. In fact I don't think I would recommend upgrading except that you say you are certain your current graphics cards is causing problems. Finally while I don't use Linux, I don't believe either ATI or NVIDIA cards have good open source drivers. If all you are doing is general stuff and watching DVDs then they are probably sufficient however although you may want to use the proprietary drivers anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 01:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

On Linux - you're better off with nVidia hardware - the device drivers are much better than ATI - although they are closed source. I don't believe any claims of one CPU manufacturer being better with nVidia and the other with ATI - that's bogus. I use nVidia with 64bit Linux and have Intel CPU in one machine and AMD in the other - and I can't tell which is which. SteveBaker (talk) 03:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Google Groups: Split thread

Ah, it's been a while since I've need the expedient and authoritative help of the Computing Reference Desk.

I've recently set up a private Google group for a small (not WP-related) organisation of which I am a member. All's been going well, but recently someone replied to one post, trying to start a new thread. All members get sent posts by email, and since the subject was changed, it worked fine from an email-inbox POV, but Google's online interface has understandably interpreted it as a discussion title change, and kept it all in the same thread, so it now goes "Topic 1 - Topic 1 - Topic 2 - Topic 2 - Topic 2" on the same webpage.

Try as I might, I can't seem to split the discussion for archive purpose (I have owner privileges), but perhaps that's because I'm looking at it from the wrong angle. Any help appreciated, - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 10:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and if the option to move posts between threads is available somewhere, that also would suffice. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 10:49, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible. They don't suggest that it might be possible on the help pages, either. My best suggestion is that you could create a new discussion/thread with the "Topic 2" as the title. Hopefully people could then reply to that message. But I don't think it's possible to move messages between threads once they've been posted. If you really don't want them in "Topic 1", you could delete them and quote them all in a new topic, but that's the best I can suggest. Indeterminate (talk) 11:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Combining greasemonkey scripts

I have several greasemonkey scripts which all do basically the same thing but run on different sites. Is there a way that I can combine them into one script while still retaining the individual site functions (for example, only one part of the script will work on website x, while the other part won't unless it's on website y). I want to do this so that I don't have 20 different things listed in my greasemonkey window, and so I can back it up easier. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.133 (talk) 11:57, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

You must check the value of document.location, so the script could vary its behavior based on the site you are viewing. -- Codicorumus  « msg 13:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Just have multiple @include directives so it will run on all the sites you want, and in the script look at your location as Cod suggested. --Sean 14:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I thought of that, but each script does something different. Just including every site like that would create a horrible mess —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.133 (talk) 15:41, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Um, I thought the root of the problem was that the scripts all do the same thing? --Sean 21:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

They do basically, they all modify the page title, but for each site they have a different word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.133 (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

You can do that via an associative array (google search) indexed on domains and then setting document.title = titleOf[document.location.host]; -- Codicorumus  « msg 11:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Search engines

Is there a way of excluding specified domains from a search engine's results list? When I say "is there a way", I really mean is there a way that won't cost me any money. SpinningSpark 12:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Do you mean, for your own searches? You can do that with Google by putting "-site:url" in your search (e.g. CNN -site:cnn.com).

Do you mean, for others? Only if it is a domain you control. You can put a Meta Robots tag on the page that tells search engines not to put your domain in it.

You can't make Google not carry someone else's domain, of course. --Mr.98 (talk) 13:46, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. It's the "-site:foo" thing I want, but I want to make a list, for instance in a text file, so I don't have to type it in the search box every time. It will be a very long list, basically I want to exclude Wikipedia, mirrors, forks, search compilations, etc. SpinningSpark 00:51, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the easiest way to do this would be to create a custom search engine for Firefox's search bar. It's pretty easy, here's two different ways: 1 2. Just do your google search without any arguments except the "-site:foo" ones, and then use that to make a search engine. Indeterminate (talk) 02:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

That's great, it took a few attempts but I've got it working - even with its own icon. Do you know where I can find a list of all the valid input parameter names? The example on the linked page shows two but I would guess there are more. SpinningSpark 12:26, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Overheated laptops

I have a Windows Vista XS laptop. When it gets overheated it shuts down. How often should I turn it off to prevent its overheating?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 12:50, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

You should not have to turn it off. Either your fan(s) died or you need to take your laptop apart and clean it. You can download and run SpeedFan http://www.techspot.com/downloads/547-speedfan.html to monitor your laptop's temperature. If your laptop happens to be a Toshiba, for directions about how to take it apart see http://www.irisvista.com]. Jacek (talk) 15:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Well, obviously, you shouldn't have to. Something is wrong. Generally, you need to be sure that the various ventilation slots are not blocked - and try not to operate it on a soft surface - the little gap underneath the laptop formed by the little rubber feet holding it up is important to ventilation. If all else fails - you can get a stand to place the laptop on that has small fans in it to keep the thing cool. SteveBaker (talk) 15:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. It only started to overheat recently, and at steadily increasing time intervals. I keep it on a wooden desk, but I'll check out the shops to see if I can locate the stand with the small fans. Thanks again for your advice.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The cooling vanes in the cpu heatsink in laptops can get clogged up with fluff. A blast through the fan of a can of compressed air might clear it or otherwise you're probably stuck with opening up the case. Dmcq (talk) 18:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree - if you're sitting the machine on a hard surface and given that the problem has been getting worse gradually - then probably one or more of the ventilation slots (or something like a heatsink behind that slot) is getting gradually bunged up with fluff. Most electronics stores will sell you an aerosol can of "compressed air" - they come with a thin tube you clip into the nozzle that lets you get right in to where the problem is and blast the fluff out of the way. You should try that before you resort to buying a cooling stand - if the vents are blocked, a cooling stand might not help much. FYI, these cooling stands should cost you about $25 and are generally powered via a USB port on the laptop itself. But running a laptop "hot" isn't good for it - so you really should take action. SteveBaker (talk) 00:49, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Before I open the case I'll try the can of compressed air. Thank you for all the advice; it's been a big help as I was getting worried.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:35, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Large backup storage

I would like to backup a total of 8Tb of data from various networked machines, and then another 200Gb per month. Obviously this won't come cheap, but cheap would be good. Fit-in-a-bag portability would also be good. What type of hardware setup would the panel recommend? Sr Paul (talk) 13:14, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

What sort of quality do you want? Domestic type - just copy it to removable 1TB removable drives, or commercial - where money could be lost if you get it wrong, or enterprise, where you would expect it to be guaranteed to work, even if a major component was destroyed? Make sure you have enough network capacity to connect you backup making machine! Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

For home use, you can build a computer with drives that you share over the network. This is the most conveinent "cheap" option. There are also various NAS devices that are at an individual's budget if you choose to go that route. I have heard good things about the rather pricey Drobo device if you are looking for something with a minimum of setup. You can also buy external hard drives to back up to, but you'll be seeing a maximum capacity of about 2TB per drive in this case with the exception of multi-drive external cases. I wouldn't reccomend anything bigger than a 2TB backup drive since the larger ones tend to either be very expensive or are a "JBOD" type array. Whatever backup method you choose, the drives alone will run around $100/TB right now depending on the speed, brand and any deals you find. Enterprise and Commercial backup are a different beast though and will cost considerably more. Caltsar (talk) 16:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

i have a question on telecommunication

what is an IP based backhaul in telecommunication? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Felixcater (talk • contribs) 13:17, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Backhaul is the name for the transmission carrying data (and voice) from local exchanges and wireless cell sites to the core network. IP means it uses Internet Protocol as the addressing and packetising mechanism. --Phil Holmes (talk) 15:51, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

How to add an image to an existing pdf

Hi all,

I have a contract that was sent to me as a pdf, which I'm supposed to print, sign, scan, and email.

I already have a scan of my signature, saved as several file types. If I could just add that image in the right place, I could save three of those steps and a trip to kinkos. Does anyone know how I could add an image to an existing pdf?

I'm on a Mac OS X, have Word and Open Office, if either of those two things help.

Thanks! &mdash Sam 76.24.222.22 (talk) 16:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Inkscape should do it nicely. -- 87.115.106.169 (talk) 16:47, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Just because you can do this, doesn't mean you should. If you can add such an image to this document, somebody else can remove and save it -- are you sure you want a digital copy of your signature floating around the Internet?

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 22:20, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The OP is required to scan and email the signed document - it's just as easy to extract the signature from that as it is from a digital one overlaid onto the PDF with (for example) Inkscape - and for sure email isn't a secure transmission medium. Besides, signatures are trivially easy to fake in the digital age - I wouldn't worry about it. SteveBaker (talk) 00:33, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed... if you're sending a signature at all (whether printed or not!) it is trivially easy to make a copy of it. This is why it takes more than a signature to open up a bank account, etc. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:36, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I just want to confirm that Inkscape does this quite easily and readily. I was initially suspicious, but it's ability to import a single PDF page, import a signature image, put the two together, and export the whole thing as a new PDF page, is pretty seamless and pretty straightforward. Hurray. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:35, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you everyone. Inkscape worked great. — Sam 63.138.152.155 (talk) 15:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

No sound after installation of new graphics card

When I installed my new graphics card, I lost all capabilities of playing sound in Windows. Apparently, now Windows only regocnizes the Digital Output Device, not the Analogue Output Device that I am supposed to use. Preveously, I had a red speaker in the system tray, for the Asus Realtek Driver application, but now it is gone. I have a HP computer m7796. The sound worked well with my old nVidia GeForce 8500 GT, but not with my new ATI Radeon HD4870. --81.227.64.69 (talk) 16:55, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Downloading copyrighted content law

Whenever downloading is discussed on the news its described as illegal downloading, presumably because it relates to copyrighted content, but I want to know what specific laws are being broken by the downloader. Is there specific legislation (in UK especially) prohibiting downloading certain content? as I would have thought the only breach of copyright law would be by the uploader making copyrighted content available. I'm thinking of it as similar to someone exhibiting copies of an artists work without permission or payment - the people who go to see it wouldn't be breaking the law only the person exhibiting. Just for the record I'm not looking for legal advice in relation to any actual court case or planned act, I just want to find out what the laws are on this, specifically in the UK if possible. Thanks AllanHainey (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright law, generally, applies to making a copy, not "making available" -- that's why libraries aren't copyright violators, because no copy is made when you borrow a book from a library. When you download a file from a server, both the server and your computer are involved in making a copy. --FOo (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

That's right. The visitors to the exhibit in your example are not making an unauthorized copy, which is the illegal act. As far as types of content, I'm more familiar with US law, sorry; as far as I know, here, there isn't any law specifically outlawing the downloading of particular types of content — the law being broken is a generic violation of copyright law, specifically, "making a copy". Tempshill (talk) 05:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Note, of course, that just because it is "unauthorized" does not make it "illegal." Fair use, for example, covers a lot of "unauthorized" reproduction, making it actually "legal". (And yes, this comes into play quite a lot in trying to sort out what the "illegal" types of downloading of copyrighted content are versus the "legal" types). --98.217.71.237 (talk) 13:29, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

That's not correct. Copyright covers many kinds of uses of a work, including public exhibition, performance (of a play, for example), and "to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending" (quoted from the US copyright code—which, before you ask, is not copyrighted). Libraries are legal only because they are specifically exempted (§ 108 of the US code). It's not clear whether downloading a file from a server ought to count as reproduction (for legal purposes). The problem is that people have limited control over what their computers download. You shouldn't be liable for infringement if you view a website that happens to use a copyrighted image without permission (and that's probably the majority of all noncommercial websites). In the case of P2P software I imagine it's made easier by the fact that everyone who downloads also uploads, so everyone is clearly engaged in distribution. -- BenRG (talk) 13:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

It's also the case that with P2P software, you are using specialized programs devoted to distributing files, not just incidental web browsing. But I agree that legally the concepts are not terribly clear here, as they apply to what's actually happening with the data, and I'm not sure the courts have fully worked this out, yet. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:04, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I avoid using terms like illegal or legal for what may be simply civil law issues but if you knowingly read/view content you know to be hosted in violation of copyright I suspect you could be sued by the copyright holder (although I think this is very unlikely in practice) in numerous jurisdictions. For example reading Harry Potter book 7 or viewing some movie or TV shown on Youtube. Nil Einne (talk) 01:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

BenRG's wrong with the library example. § 108 sets out some specific exemptions for reproductions by libraries, and does not speak directly to distribution. Libraries might be in violation of a distribution right, but § 109 is the exemption (and it's not limited to libraries). This is generally known as the first sale doctrine. There are some exceptions for computer software and musical copyrights ("phonorecords"), but basically the initially purchased authorized copy falls under § 109. It's notable that first sale predates the 1976 Act.

In the US one of the protected acts (they're contained in § 106 [also in 106A and 1201, plus some others]). Those acts are listed in Copyright law in the United States, but they are quickly, 1) reproduction; 2) derivative work creation; 3) public distribution; 4) public performance; 5) public display (very similar to performance).

To the original point, the problem with computer aided handling of data is that nearly every action a computer does on the data is a copy (a reproduction). That puts it all firmly within the scope of the statute, and that partially represents the dramatic expansion of copyright law from what was envisioned in 1976. Shadowjams (talk) 03:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Vista SP1 64 bit on Asus P5Q-EM G45

Hello there, is it possible to run Vista SP1 64 bit on Asus P5Q-EM G45?? I heard that this board conflicts with Vista.--119.30.36.41 (talk) 18:19, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

no video signal

I've been having intermittent trouble with the video connection made by an HP Pavilion s3000 running NVIDIA display driver GeForce 6150 LE on Vista (Service Pack 2).

Two different monitors can't see the video output signal. I've tried two different cables and have just updated to the latest version of the driver software. Afterward I was unable to restart, though I tried several times. I left it for half an hour and succeeding in rebooting.

What could be causing the communication failure? What can I do about it? Thanks! --Halcatalyst (talk) 20:08, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I had a similar issue messing around with video drivers on an HP. Just before I hung up on HP Tech Support, I was asked "Is the computer turned on." Problem was fixed with a Dell box. 72.58.145.169 (talk) 22:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• HP e-mail tech support had a few suggestions and then gave up. A friend who has a PC/networking repair business thought it might be the video card and that replacing it might take care of the problem. --Halcatalyst (talk) 20:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Genealogy mapping software

Hey there. Does anyone know of any (preferably free) software that will allow me to create a simple family tree? All I need is something graphical, like a pedigree. The only things I really need to be shown in each box of the tree is a name and a birthdate. I've tried PAF but it isn't what I'm looking for.

Ideally, the software will generate a family tree that will display not only my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc, but also my grandparent's children, my cousins, their cousins, etc, in one view. Everything I've found so far only list one person as the "base" and displays their parents, but not mine. I'm looking for something that will display everyone in one giant tree. Am I making sense?

So anyone have anything in mind? Thank you all so much! 141.153.215.27 (talk) 21:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

GraphViz? --194.197.235.240 (talk) 06:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)