Wikipedia:Peer review/Thomas Erpingham/archive1

Thomas Erpingham

Sir Thomas Erpingham was one of the heroes at the Battle of Agincourt in 1415. He was a staunch supporter of two Lancastrian kings—and an opponent of their predecessor Richard II. During a long military career he travelled over Europe and to the Holy Land, and helped maintain peace and security in England and his home county of Norfolk. I've listed this article for peer review because I intend to try to get it to become an FA.

Thanks, Amitchell125 (talk) 07:25, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

NOTE: when you close this peer review, please be sure to remove it from Template:FAC peer review sidebar. And please consider adding the sidebar to your userpage so you can help out at Peer review! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia

• Link to coat of arms: Arms of Sir Thomas Erpingham - Y
• MOS:CAPTIONS, this is a full sentence, so should end with a full stop: Richard II is met by his enemies—led by Erpingham—after the king was lured by the Earl of Northumberland from Conwy Castle (from La Prinse et mort du roy Richart, British Library) ... ditto for several other image captions. Sentence fragments do not end with a full stop, full sentences do. Y
• You can install this script to keep your endashes in order (Featured articles must comply with MOS). Y - thanks.
• You can install this script to keep your date formatting in order (I have corrected this and the endashes). Y - thanks.
• You can install this script to evaluate duplicate links: there are several, but I am unsure if they can be jusified. Y - sorted.
• WP:MSH, The revolution of 1399 and its aftermath --> Revolution of 1399 and aftermath Y
• There should be no space between punctuation and citation; pls review throughout.[1] Y sorted.
• No page numbers for this source? John, Trevor (1970). "Sir Thomas Erpingham, East Anglian Society and the Dynastic Revolution of 1399". Transactions of the Norfolk and Norwich Archaeological Society. 35 (1): 96–108. doi:10.5284/1078024 A 12-page range is more than our readers should have to peruse for WP:V Y pages revealed
• Whose son? Richard II or John of Gaunt? ... during the reign of Richard II he served under John of Gaunt in Spain and Scotland, and his son Henry Bolingbroke ... Y sorted
• Who? Henry or Thomas? He later helped to suppress the ... Y sorted
• This could be spelled out as twelve per WP:MOSNUM, your choice though (I prefer to minimize digits in the lead). within 12 months law and order had been re-established ... Y
• wikilink indenture Y
• Again, personal preference, but you could avoid digits here by doing this ... Thomas went with his father to Aquitaine in the service of Edward, Prince of Wales (the 'Black Prince') when he was eleven. Sir John died in 1370, when his son was thirteen. (years old is redundant) Y
• in the duke's pursuit of the throne of Castile ... MOS:JOBTITLE, if we are speaking of a specific duke, then I believe it is in uppercase ... could be wrong. Y done
• Which he and him is who? He campaigned with him in Scotland in 1386. ... Y sorted
• ??? ... who crossed over the English Channel but was refused permission to give to travel overland Y sorted

Stopping here for now, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Above comments addressed. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:00, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

It seems like Gog is finding the same vagueness about nouns and pronouns that I was finding, so I will wait for him to finish. Please ping me when Gog is done, and I will start a complete re-read. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:16, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I cannot get to this today ... pls ping me again if I have not revisited within two days, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:07, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Amitchell125 are you ready for another review now? I am so swamped that I would love to let Eddie891 go next, if that works. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:19, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia Nearly ready, but Curry's book has thrown up some stuff to research, so I'm still working on the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 13:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia re-visit

When revisiting after substantial improvements, I usually don't remember what I raised before, don't review commentary from others (so I won't be influenced by it), and start over as in a first review, so please whack me with a net noodle if I repeat something that has been discussed elsewhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• You can install User:GregU/dashes.js to keep your dashes in order (done).
• You can install User:Evad37/duplinks-alt to review duplicate links. I removed one; there are still some duplicate links, but it could be argued that they are useful. Y a few crept back in
• I am not entirely certain the punctuation is correct on all image captions, per MOS:CAPTIONS (I could be wrong, but please review) Y

@SandyGeorgia: I've amended some of the comments, please let me know if you think they are still incorrect. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:11, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not entirely clear how you are distinguishing which sources go in Bibliography, and which are directly linked as References. For example, when I look at those in Bibliography that include an access-date (Retrieved on), I find some that are journals (published in hard print), so don't need accessdates. Yet I also find some that aren't available in hard print (I think?), so then I can't figure out why others that aren't available in hard print are listed directly in References, but not Bibliography (eg Rider, Clare). No need to answer me, as long as you know what the system is when you approach FAC, as Nikkimaria will ask :) Y
• Danson covers pages 27 to 43, which is a large span; should individual page numbers be given in the short-note reference? Check throughout for similar ... Y
• Does this need some modification per MOS:ELLIPSES (I am never sure myself), but it has two sets of ellipses??? On New-year's day,... ...eleven persons, Y
• Per User:Tony1 writing exercises, some of the uses of the word also might not be necessary, may be redundant. Y
• Check throughout that citations are in ascending order, sample: when Thomas was thirteen.[7][5] Y
• I ran out of breath reading this sentence aloud: Born in Norfolk, and knighted whilst still in his teens, during the reign of Richard II he served under John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster in Spain and Scotland, and Gaunt's son Henry Bolingbroke in Lithuania, Prussia and the Holy Land.

  How about ...

  He was born in Norfolk, and knighted whilst still in his teens. During the reign of Richard II he served under John of Gaunt, Duke of Lancaster in Spain and Scotland, and Gaunt's son Henry Bolingbroke in Lithuania, Prussia and the Holy Land. Y

• Missing comma, or is this a BrEng thing? Thomas Erpingham was born in about 1355 the son of Sir John Erpingham of Erpingham in Norfolk, England. Y
• Something wonky here: Thomas would have known the house, and was possibly was born there. Y
• I understand here you are probably trying to vary the prose, but still, one gets lost in who is who. The paragraph starts with:

  The Duke's determination to rule the kingdom of Castile after his marriage to a Castilian princess in 1371 dominated his life for 15 years.

  which raises two problems. One unfamiliar with the cast of characters has to look back to figure out who's who. And then wonder if it dominated Lancaster's life or Epringham's life. How about ...

  The Duke's determination to rule the kingdom of Castile after his marriage to a Castilian princess in 1371 dominated Lancaster's life for 15 years. Y

Poking around, I see few other issues, as Gog has been thorough. No need to get back to me on any of this. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Gog the Mild

• "Erpingham accompanied Bolingbroke into exile in October 1398, and was among those who returned to England when Henry". Bolingbroke/Henry. He was still Bolingbroke when he landed. Y
• "to reclaim his inheritance". A very high proportion of readers are going to go "Inheritance? What inheritance?" Why not specify? Y
• "Henry appointed Empingham". Who's he? Y

• "who succeeded his father Robert as lord in 1244." Check the date? Y
• "Ancestry": Thomas's date of birth. Y Anything known of his mother? Y None of the sources mention his mother.
• "the Duke's pursuit of the throne of Castile" More detail please. Y
• Any notable battles or sieges which TE took part in while with Gaunt? Y
• Linked to this, what if any part did TE play in the Caroligian phase of the Hundred Years' War (1369–1389)?

@Gog the Mild: TE was born in 1355, and was 14 in 1369 at the start of the 2nd phase of the 100YW; there's then a 11-year gap until 1380 (the year he was indentured to Gaunt) From 1369 until his death in 1380, Charles V of France recovered much of France's territory. It's unlikely TE was directly involved in the 100YW during this period. Y Amitchell125 (talk) 22:20, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

• "Erpingham took part in a passage of arms (pas d'armes) before Charles VI of France". Without checking the source, it seems that "joust" and "pas d'armes" may be getting confused here. Y
• "Erpingham accompanied Bolingbroke into exile in October 1398". This comes a bit out of the blue. Perhaps sketch in what TE was up to in the intervening five years, ✗ and why HB was exiled. Y

I looked but TE appears to have done nothing worth recording in the 5 or so years prior to the events of 1398. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:31, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

• "his exile extended by the king". Which king? This is probably tied to the comment above. Y
• "the king's brother". The same king? Sorted Y

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

I am pausing here to reflect. We are to 1399 and have learnt almost nothing about TE. Plenty about his grandfather, Gaunt and Bolingbroke, but where is TE in all this? Plus, TE was in his prime through several wars with Castile, and during rumblings with France which turned into a full-blooded war with nearly all of England's French territories being overrun. What was TE doing during all of this? If fighting, then where, with whom and to what end? If not fighting, then why not? And why was he then so respected at Agincourt?

Robert Vane's thesis mentions the lack of information prior to 1399, the year TE is first named by the chroniclers, and that "Erpingham' s life has at times had to be written through the lives of men in whose company he served"". The article may not be able to go much further beyond his early experience in Aquitaine, his knighthood, the 1386 Scottish campaign, the expedition to the Iberian peninsular, his crusading adventures with Bolingbroke, and his association with Bolingbroke prior to the crisis of 1399. As far as answering why he was so respected at Agincourt, I'll find a citation to answer that (as far as I know he was a long-standing loyal servant of the Lancastrians more than a fighting soldier; he never fought in a major battle before Agincourt, and didn't really fight during that battle either). Amitchell125 (talk) 17:56, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

That seems an excellent summary. If you can get that, at greater length, into the article, you may have a runner. You may even get away with citing Vane on that narrow point. Gog the Mild (talk) 23:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm waiting a few days for Curry's book to arrive, then I'll make some changes. Amitchell125 (talk) 09:06, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Could you ping me when it is ready for another look at. Ta. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:37, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: - I've moved the article on using Curry (2000). Can you take a look? Amitchell125 (talk) 16:10, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

At times I had to stop and remind myself that the subject of the article wasn't HB. And sources; there seems to be a lot of Sumption, who is great, but if you are trying to squeeze an FA on a bit-part character out of general histories, I don't think that it is going to happen. Is there a proper biography on TE - if so I am not seeing it. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:00, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

@Gog the Mild: Thanks for your comments so far, I'll pause as well, as there may be suitable sources out there specifically on TE, but I've not seen them. I'll read the thesis by Vane again before i continue, but I don't think I'm supposed to cite from it directly—however it may help me to fill in some of the gaps you identified. I'm happy to condense down the history that Erpingham was a witness to, if that's what's needed. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:39, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Gah! I hate it when I discover a really good thesis, and then realise that it's an MA!
• What you need I think is Curry, Anne (2000) "Sir Thomas Erpingham: a life in arms". In, Curry, Anne (ed.) Agincourt: 1415. Henry V, Sir Thomas Erpingham and the Triumph of the English Archers. Stroud, GB. Tempus. Reasonably priced, used.

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:35, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• It's only a chapter, and I already have her 1415 Agincourt: A new History, but it may be worth it. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:03, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• You could try requesting the paper. I have done this several times, and been lucky twice. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:37, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

• Done, and the book is kept at my library, but may be unavailable because of lockdown. Amitchell125 (talk) 14:54, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Eddie891

• Please ping me after the above has been more or less resolved and I'll leave some comments. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:33, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

@Eddie891 and SandyGeorgia: Hopefully most of the issues raised by Gog the Mild are now resolved, please feel free to suggest improvements. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:54, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

• FN 27 is broken (doesn't point anywhere) Y
• "soon after his father" I don't think this is really relevant and may raise more questions than it serves to answer Y
• might the 'ancestry' section be better re-titled 'ancestry and early life'? Y
• "In around 1372, Erpingham was knighted." So was this when he began military service? I'd think you had to be a warrior before being knighted, but am not familiar with the era and, of course, you may not know. Also, don't you have to be knighted by somebody-- could be worth specifying 'knighted by X' Y
• "a worthwhile price for the freedom his uncle's absence would give him" who's the uncle of who here? Y
• "The historian Douglas Biggs suggests that as Erpingham was sent back to England" So was he definitely sent back, and the historian is suggesting why, or is it unclear and the historian is suggesting both why and that it happened at all? Also that 'as' seems a bit out of place to me? Y
• "In 1390, Erpingham joined the retinue of Lancaster's son" the sentence that this begins is rather long and I think could be split into two. You actually put a period in the middle 'expedition to Marseilles. where" but it doesn't feel like a proper stop, in part because the first word isn't even capitalized. Y
• " Biggs describes as “the “adult” portion of Henry’s force”" adult should use single quotes, like ' and ', I think Y
• "against the remaining pagans of Lithuania. " I think a link to paganism is relevant, though it's borderline on whether its too common to link Y
• "children who were then converted" it's not abundantly clear what they were converted to, though obviously christianity I think you could still explicitly state it. Y
• "During the 1380s Erpingham was appointed to help preserve order" do we know who appointed him or what his role specifically was? Y Curry doesn't specify his role, but Goodman does.
• "that had marked the end of the Peasants' Revolt of 1381" perhaps "which had"? Y
• "which was granted for life in 1396" a stylistic preference, but I'd say "ten years later" because it mixes up the flow and also emphasizes the time between the grants, which to me is more relevant than the year Y
• "Erpingham was forced to relinquish his claim" any idea why? Y
• link Villein in the quote? Y
• "Dramatically, Richard stopped the contest " Is 'dramatically' necessary or relevant? Y
• "instead banished Bolingbroke and Mowbray from his kingdom." I think you should add the 'ten months' timeframe here? Y (months was incorrect, changed to years)
• "Henry's inheritance was confiscated and his exile" why 'henry' here and subsequently even before his coronation? Y
• "In July 1399, Erpingham was one of the loyal supporters " I think loyal is redundant here Y
• "With Henry gaining more support as he moved across northern and central England, Richard, delayed in Ireland, eventually found ships to cross over the Irish Sea" I don't think this works well as one combined sentence-- may be better as two Y
• " joined Henry's cause" I'm still not sure what Henry's cause is... Y
• " who was one of the few remaining supporters of Richard still prepared to resist Henry," you can remove 'still' here, I think Y
• " was arrested shortly afterwards by his enemy, Erpingham" I'd put this at the beginning of the sentence because it is his article (ex: "Erpingham arrested his enemy, the bishop..." Y
• " Northumberland's plans were revealed him" missing word? Y
• "and his commissioners—including Erpingham—" what does 'commissioner' mean in this context? Y
• " on their knees to have Richard killed" is 'on their knees' relevant? Y
• " In his agony as he watched his" I'd go with simply "As he watched his" -- agony can be assumed and feels a little bit editorializing-y? Y
• The para beginning "In 1400 Henry rewarded Erpingham's services during the revolution" has two "the following year" following each other, which is hard to follow Y
• " He served as Chamberlain until 1404" can expand to 'Chamberlain of the Royal Household" I think. Also, at the first mention it might benefit from a brief gloss of what the position is Y
• "Despite the martial nature of his offices," So I think it would be worth glossing what the roles involved doing because the links for his roles mainly discuss them in a modern context Y
• "Supposedly, he was spared" Worth specifying whether this is Wycliffe or Erpingham, I think Y
• "Due to his status, his local connections, his links with the Duchy of Lancaster and his position in the centre of government" Isn't "status" kinda redundant to "position in the centre of government" and "a prominent position in East Anglian society"? Y
• I wonder as to the relevance of the section beginning " Parliament lacked the funds" and ending " of attaining the Castilian throne" Y
• I think "he appointed Erpingham as Steward of the Household, a post Erpingham was to hold until at least 1415" still needs an inline cite even though it does have a note Y
• Note 5 feels out of place, I think you could move it around Y
• "the barefooted and bedraggled " relevant? Y
• The sentence beginning "Many of the French men-at-arms" feels like a run-on Y
• "his reward from Henry for the services he rendered during the war, included the farm of" I don't think that comma is needed, but am not sure Y
• " Due to his position in court the " unclear to me who 'his' is here? Y
• I think the sentence beginning "He was an executor of his uncle's will," should go after the bit about Erpingham's death Y

That's my suggestions-- Overall I found the article to be very well put together, many of the comments are personal preference or are probably attributable to my lack of knowledge of the era. Hopefully you find them helpful. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:05, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

@Eddie891: all done, and I wouldn't disagree with any of your suggestions. Many thanks, Amitchell125 (talk) 19:23, 7 January 2021 (UTC)