Wikipedia:Peer review/Prostitution in the People's Republic of China/archive1
This article is basically complete. I spent a lot of time getting all the references up to scratch. Suggestions would be very welcome, especially on what public domain images would be appropriate. Yeu Ninje 12:31, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- Great article, but a few comments;
- The See also section is useless. All the links in there are red!
- reference 55 seems blank.
- a lead image would be nice.
Other than that, the article seems great! LordViD 14:08, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks LordViD. I've got rid of the see also section and also amended reference 55. Still after a leading image though. Yeu Ninje 04:39, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- The same problem as mentioned at the talk page, it should cover prostitution in mainland China before 1949, and be renamed accordingly. Generally speaking it's a great article, and there's nothing worthwhile to complain. :-) — Instantnood 16:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- I made it clear on the talk page my reasons for confining the article to after 1949. Extracted from the talk page: "The reason the period is confined to 1949-present is that the Communist Party brought a specific social policy on prostitution, which is markedly different to anything beforehand. Chinese regimes before 1949 were generally liberal on brothels and prostitution, representing what the Communist Party would call the "old society". Because of this, they should be treated separately." Of course, the People's Republic was founded on October, whilst the article takes as its starting point 3 February, when the Communists took Beijing. I don't see that this is a problem, since a discussion of prostitution policy in the PRC should necessarily start when the Communist Party gained control of the main centres of prostitution. In the same way, the article on law in the PRC would necessarily involve some discussion of the development of law in the Jiangxi Soviet, which was almost two decades before the founding of the PRC. Yeu Ninje 21:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- I understand the point. But then we need an article for pre-1949 mainland China, the time before the communist takeover, either by expanding this article, or a separate article. I'd prefer expanding this one. — Instantnood 21:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think pre-1949 China would be better covered by two separate articles, for the same reasons I gave before - one about prostitution in traditional China, and one on prostitution in nationalist China. Yeu Ninje 00:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Both way would be fine for me. The article on nationalist China will cover more or less the same geographical scope as the current one for the PRC, except for (Outer) Mongolia, Tibet (well.. depends), Quemoy and Matsu, as well as Taiwan for the brief period between 1945 and 1949. Taiwan would better be covered by the Taiwan article instead, since that four years did not turn Taiwan to be integrated with the mainland. — Instantnood 16:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, good idea. Yeu Ninje 19:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- Both way would be fine for me. The article on nationalist China will cover more or less the same geographical scope as the current one for the PRC, except for (Outer) Mongolia, Tibet (well.. depends), Quemoy and Matsu, as well as Taiwan for the brief period between 1945 and 1949. Taiwan would better be covered by the Taiwan article instead, since that four years did not turn Taiwan to be integrated with the mainland. — Instantnood 16:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think pre-1949 China would be better covered by two separate articles, for the same reasons I gave before - one about prostitution in traditional China, and one on prostitution in nationalist China. Yeu Ninje 00:07, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
- I understand the point. But then we need an article for pre-1949 mainland China, the time before the communist takeover, either by expanding this article, or a separate article. I'd prefer expanding this one. — Instantnood 21:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
- I made it clear on the talk page my reasons for confining the article to after 1949. Extracted from the talk page: "The reason the period is confined to 1949-present is that the Communist Party brought a specific social policy on prostitution, which is markedly different to anything beforehand. Chinese regimes before 1949 were generally liberal on brothels and prostitution, representing what the Communist Party would call the "old society". Because of this, they should be treated separately." Of course, the People's Republic was founded on October, whilst the article takes as its starting point 3 February, when the Communists took Beijing. I don't see that this is a problem, since a discussion of prostitution policy in the PRC should necessarily start when the Communist Party gained control of the main centres of prostitution. In the same way, the article on law in the PRC would necessarily involve some discussion of the development of law in the Jiangxi Soviet, which was almost two decades before the founding of the PRC. Yeu Ninje 21:11, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
A lot of work. Well referenced. Very interesting. Here are some specific suggestions:
- "Prostitution has now developed to the extent that it comprises an industry, one that involves a great number of people and produces a considerable economic output. In spite of government efforts, prostitution has become associated with a number of endemic problems, including organised crime, government corruption and sexually-transmitted disease." The "in spite of gov efforts" should precede the first sentence, not the second.
- "Because of social changes, the identity of the Chinese prostitute has become increasingly problematised." Horrible, meaningless sentence.
- "There have also been a growing number of criminal acts, especially incidences of theft, bribery, and fraud that are directed at men who buy sex". Extortion seems more probable than bribery.
- "by the early 1960s... venereal diseases had been eliminated on the mainland". This is extremely improbable-- what was eliminated was the public admission of their existence. Look at the dates-- cultural revolution. Even last year the chinese gov was unwilling to admit the existence of SARS.
- "Chinese police categorise prostitution practices according to a descending hierarchy of seven tiers" descending hierarchy is redundant.
These are mostly copyedit type suggestions. Overall impressive article.alteripse 03:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for your close reading of the article and suggestions. I've amended the text as per your first two suggestions. Regarding the other points:
- Theft, bribery and fraud are the most commonly documented criminal acts in the Chinese media, probably because most prostitutes may not have the resources to stage extortion operations. Typical criminal acts associated with prostitutes involve them luring male clients to an isolated spot, where the client is then robbed. Extortion and blackmailing may also exist, but I haven't seen enough examples in the media or from other sources to warrant inclusion.
- But bribery? How are customers victims of bribery? That's why I assumed you meant blackmail or extortion.
- Yes, you are right. The reference to bribery is not sufficiently clear. I've changed that sentence to: "There have also been a growing number of criminal acts, especially incidences of theft and fraud directed at men who buy sex, as well as bribery of public servants."
- But bribery? How are customers victims of bribery? That's why I assumed you meant blackmail or extortion.
- The relevant section says that "venereal diseases were almost completely eliminated from the mainland." Surely this makes it a bit more probable.
- If I recall didn't they deny the existence of aids for a long time, claiming that since they didn't have any homosexuals (!) they didnt have any aids? They might have had a lot less STDs, but "almost completely gone" strikes me as preposterous given the absolute unreliability, demonstrated over-and-over, of chinese government statistics regarding negative sexual and disease matters. Believe what you wish.
- I've added "According to the PRC government" to the beginning of that sentence. This way, the reader can make up their own mind based on their ideas about the reliability of the PRC government.
- If I recall didn't they deny the existence of aids for a long time, claiming that since they didn't have any homosexuals (!) they didnt have any aids? They might have had a lot less STDs, but "almost completely gone" strikes me as preposterous given the absolute unreliability, demonstrated over-and-over, of chinese government statistics regarding negative sexual and disease matters. Believe what you wish.
- I think "descending hierarchy" should be left in the sentence. It describes how the seven tiers go from high class prostitutes catering to party bosses and overseas businessmen, to street walkers catering to migrant workers - hence, "descending hierarchy".
- This is just a matter of English semantic logic. Any hierarchy by definition is descending and ascending. They all are. It is a redundant characterization. But still a good article. alteripse 05:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- In that case, the "descending" is there to distinguish the hierarchy from being an ascending one. Yeu Ninje 21:06, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- This is just a matter of English semantic logic. Any hierarchy by definition is descending and ascending. They all are. It is a redundant characterization. But still a good article. alteripse 05:35, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
- Yeu Ninje 03:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Exteremely well researched. A few notes:
- In "Types and Venues" ..."refers to women their high class clients for a fixed duration of time" is an
awkward phrase. I can't tell what you're trying to say.
- I think you should submit it for FA status. Rlevse 15:42, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, there was a grammatical error there, which has since been corrected. Thanks Rlevse. Yeu Ninje 23:47, 9 December 2005 (UTC)