Wikipedia:Peer review/On Her Majesty's Secret Service (novel)/archive1

On Her Majesty's Secret Service (novel)

One of my favourite Bond novels this. It's got a ridiculous plot, a semi-cliched bad-guy with an overblown mission to destroy Britain and Bond beating all the odds and getting the girl - until the stomach punch at the end. All well-written and enjoyable tosh. This has been through a bit of a rewrite recently and any comments are welcome. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Comments from TR

I'm going to need a couple of goes at this. Here's the first:

• Lead

• "Fleming made a concerted effort" – I think (and so does the OED) that it takes two or more people to make a concerted anything. Perhaps "determined" or similar?
• "In 2014 On Her Majesty's Secret Service was adapted as a play on BBC Radio, starring Toby Stephens" – is a radio adaptation notable enough for mention in the lead and even if so, is the name of the lead actor notable enough?

• Plot

• "keep in contact with Tracy after a period of medical assistance" – hers, not his. Possibly something like "after she has had ..."
• "asked the College to declare him the reigning count" – do counts reign?
• "a number of whom he kills" – there are those who get aerated over "a number of", on the grounds that one is a number, and insist on "several" or some such. I think them silly, but to each his own.

• I quite agree with you (particularly when they say that zero is also a number): context is key and shows it's multiple. Still, to avoid the undue attention later, I've reframed. - SchroCat (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• Background and writing history

• "one of his friends and neighbours, Noël Coward" – you are a more self-disciplined man than I am if you can resist adding a footnote giving Coward's words in turning down the title role in the film.
• "and as such he and Bond never meet" – "as such" strikes a discordant note: I suggest a simple "so"

• Plot inspirations

• "the stock broking firm Rowe & Pitman" – just asking and not sure: is stock broking usually two words?
• "Lanne-Mirrlees produced the family crest for the character" – you'll attract the wrath of heraldry pedants: the crest is just the thing on the top of the shield; the whole shebang should be called "the arms" tout court.
• "Fleming used that of Muriel Wright, a married wartime lover of Fleming's" – maybe "his" instead of the repetition of his name?
• "Pol Roger was the only champagne at the time not to be produced in half-bottles" – well, well: I'm grateful, SchroCat: I fancied I knew a bit about champagne, but I didn't know that.

• You and Fleming both: what a pair! - SchroCat (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• Characters

• "Bond is a more emotionally rounded character compared to previous novels in the series" – "compared to" doesn't read smoothly, I think: might "than in" do?
• "James Chapman notes" – there are eleven such "notes" in the text, and one rather begins to notice the repetition. Roget will oblige with synonyms if you want.
• "rapier-slim, with a fine, thin, studious face that was saved from seriousness by wry lines at the edges of the mouth and an ironical glint in the level eyes" – [TR, in Jules and Sand voice: "Mmm. Nice".]
• "all five are connected to the Soviet Union" – not sure about the preposition. "To" suggests a physical connection: perhaps "with"?

• Style

• "He used well-known brand names ... to produce a sense of realism" – and not just that, if George Lyttelton is to be believed: "Last week a friend told me (and I believe it) that when Ian Fleming mentions any particular food, clothing or cigarettes in his books, the makers reward him with presents in kind: 'in fact', said my friend, 'Ian's are the only modern thrillers with built-in commercials.'" (Citation on request if wanted but no obligation.)

• Later: I see you have alluded to this in footnote H, and have correctly attributed the quotation to the other half of the letter-writing duo. It was indeed RH-D and not GWL as I mistakenly say above. Tim riley talk 09:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• "OHMSS, the sweep "moves with confidence and readability" – two things here. First this is the first and only time you compress the title to OHMSS (without explaining the contraction) and secondly there is a preposition missing before the title.
• "at the visit to the college of arms" – the institution is (rightly) capitalised elsewhere in your text.

That's all for now. More anon. Tim riley talk 19:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Concluding batch from TR

• Themes

• "one of the more food-oriented Bond books ... eight meals are described" – not for mention in the article, perhaps, but I send you Coward's comment on Fleming's taste in food:

One of the things that still makes me laugh whenever I read Ian’s books is the contrast between the standard of living of dear old Bond and the sort of thing Ian used to put up with at Goldeneye. ... Whenever I ate with Ian at Goldeneye the food was so abominable that I used to cross myself before I took a mouthful. Stewed guavas and coconut cream - salt fish and ackee fruit. I used to say: "Ian, it tastes like armpits". And all the time there was old Ian smacking his lips for more while his guests remembered all those delicious meals he had put into his books.

• Critical reception

• "Doolittle was fulsome in his praise for the novel" – I'd be careful about "fulsome". The sense of "full" is recorded by the OED as "now rare" and Chambers gives the modern meaning as "sickeningly obsequious; nauseatingly affectionate, admiring or praiseful; loosely, copious or lavish".

That's all from me. On to FAC, when pray ping me. – Tim riley talk 10:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Tim, apologies for taking so long to get to these: a schoolboy error in opening the PR but not putting page on my watchlist meant I have only just seen these thanks to the next reviewer pinging me! Thank you kindly for your comments, which have all been adopted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Comments from Phlsph7

Hi SchroCat, I have some comments on grammar and sources.

Grammar:

• who are commit crimes in order remove "are"
• Only made minor changes to the novel's plot were made remove the first "made"
• Bond rings the ship's-bell replace "ship's-bell" with "ship's bell"
• With the films being produced in a different order to the books replace "to" with "than"
• and, as at 2024, has never been out of print. replace "at" with "of"

  "as at" is quite correct in BrEng. - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• as a hardcover edition by the publishers Jonathan Cape replace "publishers" with "publisher"
• who is able help Bond attack add "to" before "help"
• I'm not a comma expert, but as I understand it, commas before "and" should only be used in the case of Oxford commas and if the second clause is independent. I could be wrong but I would remove all the following commas:
  • Robin de La Lanne-Mirrlees of the College of Arms, assisted Fleming with the background, and also designed a coat of arms for Bond. (both commas)
  • Griswold is more precise, and considers the story
  • the men who assist Bond are either handsome, or striking looking
  • Bond refuses the offer, but agrees to keep in contact
  • this is in contrast to Blofeld who has a large organisation to support and protect him, but still ends up

I'll have a look at these commas shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry - got distracted away from this. All now done. - SchroCat (talk) 18:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Sources:

• "Gilbert 2012, p. 360-362" replace "p." with "pp." and use en dash instead of hyphen
• "Amis, Kingsley (1966)" should come before "Atkins, John (1984)"
• "Bennett, Tony; Woollacott, Janet (2009)" lacks a publisher location. Since all the other books have one, this should be added for consistency

  It has one already: Manchester - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

  Ah correct, I meant "Lindner, Christoph (2009)", of which this article forms a part. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

  Gotcha: now sorted, thanks. - SchroCat (talk) 13:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

• unlike the rest, "Johnson, Graham; Guha, Indra Neil; Davies, Patrick (12 December 2013)" does not use title case for its title.
• in regard to title case, I'm not 100% sure what the rules after a colon are but would tend to use upper case. This would affect titles like "Kiss Kiss Bang! Bang!: the Unofficial James Bond Film Companion" and "The James Bond Phenomenon: a Critical Reader"
• Some dates use year only, some use month/year, and some use day/month/year. For the sake of consistency, it might be better to stick to one format.

• The formats are consistent within each section, which is the most common method, I think (newspapers daily, journals monthly and books annually). If you can point out any that are out of the norm, I'll have a look. - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The subsections "Books" and "News" seem to be consistent. In the subsection "Journals and magazines", "Biddulph, Edward (June 2009)" uses month/year while the rest use year only. In the subsection "Websites", "Mouriquand, David (1 March 2023)" uses day/month/year while the rest use year only. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:28, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

OK. I've got the most precise dates available. - SchroCat (talk) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

• "Pearson, John (1967)" and "Fleming, Ian (1963)" miss an identifier, like OCLC

Phlsph7 (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks. All done (bar the commas and oclc), but I'll get round to those shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the speedy response, looking good so far. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)