Wikipedia:Peer review/On Her Majesty's Secret Service (novel)/archive1
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One of my favourite Bond novels this. It's got a ridiculous plot, a semi-cliched bad-guy with an overblown mission to destroy Britain and Bond beating all the odds and getting the girl - until the stomach punch at the end. All well-written and enjoyable tosh. This has been through a bit of a rewrite recently and any comments are welcome. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:42, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
Comments from TR
[edit]I'm going to need a couple of goes at this. Here's the first:
- Lead
- "Fleming made a concerted effort" – I think (and so does the OED) that it takes two or more people to make a concerted anything. Perhaps "determined" or similar?
- "In 2014 On Her Majesty's Secret Service was adapted as a play on BBC Radio, starring Toby Stephens" – is a radio adaptation notable enough for mention in the lead and even if so, is the name of the lead actor notable enough?
- Plot
- "keep in contact with Tracy after a period of medical assistance" – hers, not his. Possibly something like "after she has had ..."
- "asked the College to declare him the reigning count" – do counts reign?
- "a number of whom he kills" – there are those who get aerated over "a number of", on the grounds that one is a number, and insist on "several" or some such. I think them silly, but to each his own.
- I quite agree with you (particularly when they say that zero is also a number): context is key and shows it's multiple. Still, to avoid the undue attention later, I've reframed. - SchroCat (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Background and writing history
- "one of his friends and neighbours, Noël Coward" – you are a more self-disciplined man than I am if you can resist adding a footnote giving Coward's words in turning down the title role in the film.
- "and as such he and Bond never meet" – "as such" strikes a discordant note: I suggest a simple "so"
- Plot inspirations
- "the stock broking firm Rowe & Pitman" – just asking and not sure: is stock broking usually two words?
- "Lanne-Mirrlees produced the family crest for the character" – you'll attract the wrath of heraldry pedants: the crest is just the thing on the top of the shield; the whole shebang should be called "the arms" tout court.
- "Fleming used that of Muriel Wright, a married wartime lover of Fleming's" – maybe "his" instead of the repetition of his name?
- "Pol Roger was the only champagne at the time not to be produced in half-bottles" – well, well: I'm grateful, SchroCat: I fancied I knew a bit about champagne, but I didn't know that.
- You and Fleming both: what a pair! - SchroCat (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Characters
- "Bond is a more emotionally rounded character compared to previous novels in the series" – "compared to" doesn't read smoothly, I think: might "than in" do?
- "James Chapman notes" – there are eleven such "notes" in the text, and one rather begins to notice the repetition. Roget will oblige with synonyms if you want.
- "rapier-slim, with a fine, thin, studious face that was saved from seriousness by wry lines at the edges of the mouth and an ironical glint in the level eyes" – [TR, in Jules and Sand voice: "Mmm. Nice".]
- "all five are connected to the Soviet Union" – not sure about the preposition. "To" suggests a physical connection: perhaps "with"?
- Style
- "He used well-known brand names ... to produce a sense of realism" – and not just that, if George Lyttelton is to be believed: "Last week a friend told me (and I believe it) that when Ian Fleming mentions any particular food, clothing or cigarettes in his books, the makers reward him with presents in kind: 'in fact', said my friend, 'Ian's are the only modern thrillers with built-in commercials.'" (Citation on request if wanted but no obligation.)
- Later: I see you have alluded to this in footnote H, and have correctly attributed the quotation to the other half of the letter-writing duo. It was indeed RH-D and not GWL as I mistakenly say above. Tim riley talk 09:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- "OHMSS, the sweep "moves with confidence and readability" – two things here. First this is the first and only time you compress the title to OHMSS (without explaining the contraction) and secondly there is a preposition missing before the title.
- "at the visit to the college of arms" – the institution is (rightly) capitalised elsewhere in your text.
That's all for now. More anon. Tim riley talk 19:00, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- Concluding batch from TR
- Themes
- "one of the more food-oriented Bond books ... eight meals are described" – not for mention in the article, perhaps, but I send you Coward's comment on Fleming's taste in food:
- One of the things that still makes me laugh whenever I read Ian’s books is the contrast between the standard of living of dear old Bond and the sort of thing Ian used to put up with at Goldeneye. ... Whenever I ate with Ian at Goldeneye the food was so abominable that I used to cross myself before I took a mouthful. Stewed guavas and coconut cream - salt fish and ackee fruit. I used to say: "Ian, it tastes like armpits". And all the time there was old Ian smacking his lips for more while his guests remembered all those delicious meals he had put into his books.
- Critical reception
- "Doolittle was fulsome in his praise for the novel" – I'd be careful about "fulsome". The sense of "full" is recorded by the OED as "now rare" and Chambers gives the modern meaning as "sickeningly obsequious; nauseatingly affectionate, admiring or praiseful; loosely, copious or lavish".
That's all from me. On to FAC, when pray ping me. – Tim riley talk 10:53, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Tim, apologies for taking so long to get to these: a schoolboy error in opening the PR but not putting page on my watchlist meant I have only just seen these thanks to the next reviewer pinging me! Thank you kindly for your comments, which have all been adopted. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:28, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
Comments from Phlsph7
[edit]Hi SchroCat, I have some comments on grammar and sources.
Grammar:
who are commit crimes in order
remove "are"Only made minor changes to the novel's plot were made
remove the first "made"Bond rings the ship's-bell
replace "ship's-bell" with "ship's bell"With the films being produced in a different order to the books
replace "to" with "than"and, as at 2024, has never been out of print.
replace "at" with "of"- "as at" is quite correct in BrEng. - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
as a hardcover edition by the publishers Jonathan Cape
replace "publishers" with "publisher"who is able help Bond attack
add "to" before "help"- I'm not a comma expert, but as I understand it, commas before "and" should only be used in the case of Oxford commas and if the second clause is independent. I could be wrong but I would remove all the following commas:
Robin de La Lanne-Mirrlees of the College of Arms, assisted Fleming with the background, and also designed a coat of arms for Bond.
(both commas)Griswold is more precise, and considers the story
the men who assist Bond are either handsome, or striking looking
Bond refuses the offer, but agrees to keep in contact
this is in contrast to Blofeld who has a large organisation to support and protect him, but still ends up
I'll have a look at these commas shortly. - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)- Sorry - got distracted away from this. All now done. - SchroCat (talk) 18:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
Sources:
- "Gilbert 2012, p. 360-362" replace "p." with "pp." and use en dash instead of hyphen
- "Amis, Kingsley (1966)" should come before "Atkins, John (1984)"
- "Bennett, Tony; Woollacott, Janet (2009)" lacks a publisher location. Since all the other books have one, this should be added for consistency
- It has one already: Manchester - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Ah correct, I meant "Lindner, Christoph (2009)", of which this article forms a part. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Gotcha: now sorted, thanks. - SchroCat (talk) 13:09, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- Ah correct, I meant "Lindner, Christoph (2009)", of which this article forms a part. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:22, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- It has one already: Manchester - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- unlike the rest, "Johnson, Graham; Guha, Indra Neil; Davies, Patrick (12 December 2013)" does not use title case for its title.
- in regard to title case, I'm not 100% sure what the rules after a colon are but would tend to use upper case. This would affect titles like "Kiss Kiss Bang! Bang!: the Unofficial James Bond Film Companion" and "The James Bond Phenomenon: a Critical Reader"
- Some dates use year only, some use month/year, and some use day/month/year. For the sake of consistency, it might be better to stick to one format.
- The formats are consistent within each section, which is the most common method, I think (newspapers daily, journals monthly and books annually). If you can point out any that are out of the norm, I'll have a look. - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- The subsections "Books" and "News" seem to be consistent. In the subsection "Journals and magazines", "Biddulph, Edward (June 2009)" uses month/year while the rest use year only. In the subsection "Websites", "Mouriquand, David (1 March 2023)" uses day/month/year while the rest use year only. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:28, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I've got the most precise dates available. - SchroCat (talk) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- "Pearson, John (1967)" and "Fleming, Ian (1963)" miss an identifier, like OCLC
Phlsph7 (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Many thanks. All done (bar the commas and oclc), but I'll get round to those shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the speedy response, looking good so far. Phlsph7 (talk) 12:29, 15 February 2024 (UTC)