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Charles the Bold

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Previous peer review

I've listed this article for peer review because I asked @User:Dudley Miles for his help regarding the article and he recommended me to put it on peer review for a second time.

Thanks, Amir Ghandi (talk) 12:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

[edit]
  • "Charles Martin". Was Martin a second forename or a surname? This should be clarified.
    • Done.
  • "As heir and as ruler, Charles vied for power and influence. His deep-rooted rivalry with Louis XI, the King of France, sparked many disputes such as the War of the Public Weal, where Charles led a revolt with other French vassals against Louis XI." This is a bit clumsy. How about "As heir and as ruler, Charles vied for power and influence with rivals such as his overlord, Louis XI, the King of France. In 1465 Charles led a successful revolt of Louis's vassals in the War of the Public Weal."
    • Done
  • "In 1435, with the Treaty of Arras, Philip the Good reconciled with Charles VII, marking the end of the civil war that had ensured between his house and the royal family." You should explain the civil war before mentioning its end. Also you should link and explain Charles VII, presumably of France.
    • Done
  • "Until the age of six, Charles was brought up by his cousins, John and Agnes of Cleves, who both were the children of Mary of Burgundy, the daughter of John the Fearless, with Adolph I, Duke of Cleves." This is excessive detail. Maybe "Until the age of six, Charles was brought up by his cousins, John and Agnes of Cleves, who were both children of Philip's elder sister Mary of Burgundy."
    • Done
  • "Agnes and Charles kept close with his mother, Isabella of Portugal." I am not sure what this means. Were close friends? Attached themselves to her because they were dependent on her support?
    • This was the original line: "From the two, the presence of Agnes was more prominent in Charles' early education. She was always in the company of Isabella of Portugal, thus reassuring that Charles was not far from his mother"
  • "the inhabitants were delighted to see their count—the young Charles—in his lands after eight years of absence." How was he their count? You say above that he was count of Charolais. Also what does eight years refer to? Did he go to Holland in 1437?
    • The source says 'their land' instead 'his lands'. I changed it to that. And deleted 'The eight years of absence'.
  • "he led his first joust". What does "led" mean here? You appear to mean "took part in"
    • I thought the appropiate verb for participating in a joust would be leading/led. Changed it.
  • "who arranged Charles's marriage to Isabella of Bourbon without Charles's knowledge". You have said this above. I would delete.
  • "Nevertheless, Charles still was able to issue documents in his name." "in his own name"?
    • Done
  • "The bitter relations between Charles and his father climaxed in 1457". You have not said that relations were bitter. Maybe "Charles was on bad terms with his father due to his exclusion from power, and their bad relations climaxed in 1457".
    • Done
  • "De Croÿ became more powerful." You have not said that he was powerful. What position did he hold?
    • Added his position
"refused his son's request and instead proposed Philip de Croÿ, high bailiff of Hainault and a member of the influential House of Croÿ, as his chamberlain" Amir Ghandi (talk) 11:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the end of 1463, the disputes between Charles and his father had become a mask for the bitter rivalry between de Croÿ and Charles." This is an expression of opinion which should be attributed to its author inline,
    • Removed the POV
  • "On his way to Burgundy, he wrote a letter to his father saying he was going to participate in Philip the Good's crusade, which was overly insulting to Charles VII." As above a POV opinion.
    • Decided to delete it, along with the two previous lines
  • " Philip the Good saw his guest as an opportunity to mend his relations with the crown and took the dauphin in, indulging him with kindness, showing humility and refused all the king's request to send the dauphin back." Mend his relations with the father by siding with his son against him? This does not make sense.
  • "He, mindful of his son's cunning nature," Another POV opinion.
  • 'Rivalry with Louis XI' section. This is confusing as there are several Charleses and you often do not explain which one you are referring to. You say Charles of Charolais was appointed rebel leader, but then appear to be referring to Charles the Bold as leader. As there is only one Louis, you do not need to keep repeating "XI".
  • "Charles showed extreme emotions for his father's death" "Charles showed extreme emotions during his father's funeral"?
    • Replaced
  • "The mob demanded an end to the humiliating retributions imposed on them after the revolt in 1449." "The mob" sounds like a snobbish way of referring to the people of Ghent. Also "humiliating retributions" is ungrammatical and unclear.
    • Changed retributions to penalties
  • "This love appears to be a fiction because Charles, busy with the political negotiations after the War of the Public Weal, did not attend his wife's funeral." Another POV comment which should be attributed inline.
    • Rewrote it
  • "due to the difficulties that caused delays." This is vague and meaningless.
    • Rewrote it
  • "Although Charles had commented on the fertility of his wife to his subjects, the pair never produced a child." What does this mean? Commented on the fertility of a previously unmaaried woman? Maybe "Charles and Margaret had no children".
    • The book says Charles told his subjects that Margaret was well-built for producing an heir
  • More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "imprisoned his father in 1465.[4] Adolf's mistreatment of his father". This is ambiguous. "mistreatment" implies worse than imprisonment. Do you mean that he had his father ill-treated in prison?
    • No, changed it to treatment
  • "The only challenging conflict was the Siege of Nijmegen , which severely damaged the Burgundian army." This is clumsy and unclear. Maybe "The only serious conflict was the siege of Nijmegen, which only surrendered after inflicting severe losses on the Burgundian army."
    • Done
  • "Charles acquired a claim on the city of Ferrette, close to Swiss borders, drawing suspicion from the Swiss Confederacy." "drawing suspicion" is an odd phrase.
    • Changed it to rising alarm
  • "and the people had demanded their liberties to be reserved and respected." What liberties? Freedom from taxes? This is clumsy and unclear.
    • Deleted
  • "However, Charles's deputy in the area, Peter von Hagenbach, violated this guarantee". What guarantee? You have not mentioned one.
    • Deleted
  • "Charles ignored the area.[104] The discontent in Alsace would lead to his downfall a couple years later." Maybe "Charles ignored the discontent, which would lead to his downfall a couple years later."
    • Deleted this part because its unsourced
  • "proposed Charles to be the next king of the Romans, with the marriage between the Emperor's son and the Charles's daughter as an inducement." This is unclear. You need to explain the status and implications of being king of the Romans, and why marriage to Charles's daughter was an inducement.
    • Expanded the section and added a note in the next paragraph for the importance that the marriage had.
  • "Although Charles received legitimate recognition for the Duchy of Guelders". You mean that the emperor recognised Charles as Duke of Guelders?
    • Yes, I think I'd delete legitimate out of it
  • "in hopes that he could still obtain his kingdom" "hoping that he could still become king of Burgundy"?
    • Changed to "hoping that he could still become a king"
  • "Many have drawn a connection between the saint and the duke for the fact that both were married three times." "Many" is vague. You should specify who. Also, in the case of Anne it was a medieval legend.
  • "The portrayal of Charles and Saint Anne may also have been a means to legitimise his marriage to Margaret by reassuring those who were dubious about an alliance with England." This is unclear. Why did the portrayal legitimise the marriage? Also, why did he want to reassure doubters? You imply above that the opponents were his French enemies.
  • "Charles's actions reflect broader societal changes in the tradition of crusading.[12] Charles pretended to offer his sword to the church to gain favour with the Papacy." What changes? Kings had promised with no intention of going on crusade for centuries.
  • "By blaming his enemies for his inaction, he cautiously maintained the dynastic expectation while never fully committing to a full-scaled crusade." "dynastic expectation" is a vague and unclear term.
  • Done to end of religion. More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:26, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Johnbod

[edit]
  • This looks a good way from being ready for FAC to me, as I think I've said on the talk recently. The prose really needs a good work-over; I don't think Dudley's sensible points above are the only ones in the sections he covers. I don't think anyone should be "vieing for influence" (if that's even how you spell it) early in the lead. The images and captions have a number of problems (and at least one plain error), some of which it will be quicker for me to fix than explain. But DON'T just run the images into text without even a space, which is dead against MOS. At least do a line break, and better yet a blank line in between - visually it is all the same, but it makes editing much easier. Half the images seem to be facing the wrong way. Johnbod (talk) 01:56, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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