Wikipedia:Peer review/Adele Spitzeder/archive1

Adele Spitzeder

I've listed this article for peer review because a number of far more experienced editors have suggested to do so in preparation of a potential FA nomination. I think I addressed all previously raised problems but I'm looking forward to more tips. Thanks, SoWhy 09:58, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

Just a few things.

• "She was initially a promising young actress, but she became a well-known private banker in 19th-century Munich by promising large returns on investments that were only sustainable by continually enlarging her customer base." I think you should be more clear about what she was doing. It is not even obvious that what she was doing was illegal under the current phrasing.
• "In her personal life, Spitzeder was never married but was documented as carrying on more than one lesbian relationship. " I would cut the first four words. I don't think you need a transition.
• "Starting in 1869, Spitzeder managed to prevail for a few years against attempts by the established banks and the liberal newspapers to discredit her before the authorities were able to bring her to trial in 1872." I might shorten to "Opening her bank in 1869, Spitzeder managed to fend off attempts to discredit her for a few years before authorities were able to bring her to trial in 1872." I'm not sure the reader needs the detail of who was against her at this point.
• "as she found no more employment. " I would be blunt and would say "as she could not find a job" or similar.
• "open up a new bank" I might cut "up"
• "Wanting to become an actress, Spitzeder studied with Munich actresses Konstanze Dahn and Charlotte von Hagn.[7]" Two uses of "actress[es] close together, I would change one, perhaps the first (take the stage?)
• "In 1856, she debuted as an actress in Coburg to great acclaim and went on to work in Mannheim, Munich, Brno, Nuremberg, Frankfurt, Karlsruhe and Altona but failed to achieve success as an actress.[1][7" I would cut the last three word or else substitute "on the stage" or "in the theatre" rather than use the phrase "as an actress" twice in one sentence.
• " Spitzeder also inserted an advertisement into the city's major newspaper, the Münchner Neueste Nachrichten, requesting to borrow 150 Gulden with the promise of 10 percent interest after two months.[13]" I might say "offering" rather than "requesting". I might even say "offering to pay 10 percent interest after two months on deposits of 150 Gulden" if the source will support it.
• "moneylenders" or "money-lenders"? You use both.
• "also defamed criticism of Spitzeder as attempts by the "Jewish capital" to discredit a pious and hard-working woman, tapping into the widespread antisemitism of the times.[33]" I might begin, "characterised criticism of Spitzeder ..."
• "She then performed as a folk singer under the name Adele Vio and lived off friends and benefactors.[41][17][29] Minor swindles led to further trials and periods of incarceration.[44] She died of cardiac arrest in Munich on 27 or 28 October 1895[41][17][29] " Refs are out of numerical order.
• Changed her name posthumously? Isn't that unusual?
• "It was produced by the Bayerische Rundfunk and the ORF, and starred Birgit Minichmayr as Adele Spitzeder and was first broadcast on 11 January 2012.[1][49]" The consecutive "ands" should be massaged.

Aside from that, it appears pretty good.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:23, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

@Wehwalt: Thanks for the comments. I did some copyediting based on them, I hope it's better now. Two things though: The Harper's Weekly source (first column near the bottom of the page) cites the ad she placed verbatim (translated) and it contains no mention of depositing or suchlike, like because at that time she didn't plan to open a bank. So I don't see how the sentence could be changed further without going away from the source but I'm open to suggestions. As for the namechange, the source only mentions that the family did it, not why. I assume because they didn't want to be associated with her. I see if I can find a source for the reasons. Regards SoWhy 18:40, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

That's fine. The "deposit" wasn't the key thing, I just thought "requesting to borrow" sounded odd.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:53, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Gerda

Finally, some extra time! Will comment as I read:

Lead

• "she offered large returns on investments paid by continually using the money of new investors to pay back the previous ones" - I had to read that twice, the biggest problem "paid by", and I expected by whom. Comma? Other wording?

  Deleted "paid". -- JM

• First 1872, then 1869, - could that be chronological?

  I removed the 1872 but I don't see a way to phrase it chronologically because that sentence ties in with the previous one and the next sentence describes the events. --SW

• Gulden (upper case), but euro (lc)?

  OK. Gulden is German and euro is not. -- JM

  There is also some discrepancy in the articles about the Gulden, having lowercase article titles while using uppercase in the text. That probably needs addressing on a larger scale (e.g. Bavarian gulden, Baden gulden, South German gulden etc.). --SW

  Dropped to lowercase per Oxford dictionary. -- JM

  But probably should be Bavatian gulden? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:33, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

  Since it takes place in Bavaria, that should be sufficient, but I added another wikilink. As I understand it, all gulden in southern Germany at that time were basically the same but for who minted them. --SW

• "the no longer employable Spitzeder" - reads awkward to me

  Rephrased -- JM

• "Spitzeder was never married but was documented as carrying on more than one lesbian relationship." May be my language but that reads needlessly complicated, both "documented" as "carry on".

  Changed to "noted". -- JM

• How about first relationships, then death?

  Reordered. --SW

Early ...

• Will you fill the red links (and then remove the years of birth and death)?

  I am planning to but I've focused on her article for now. --SW

• "Ludwig I agreed to help Betty by paying for the children's tuition. When Betty Spitzeder-Vio" - first Betty, then full name?

  Fixed -- JM

• Do convent and school have articles in German?

  Not as far as I can tell or determine. I ill-ed de:Höhere Mädchenschule though. The sources are a bit vague here, as far as I can determine, the school and boarding school (Internat) were the same. I hope it's clearer now. --SW

Acting ...

• Do we know which theatre in Coburg? - Links to theates would be more useful than to modern towns. If no theatre, link to Coburg?

  Linked. I couldn't find info on the theater. --SW

• Not familiar with the scene: does "girlfriend" imply a lesbian relationship? If not, it's redundant, Rosa being clearly feminin.

  Yes, according to the sources, she was in a relationship with multiple women, including these (see [1] especially). --SW

• Once established, I think "friend" is enough.

  I think the distinction "friend" / "girlfriend" is worth making considering the difference. --SW

Opted for "close friend". -- JM

...bank

• "carpenter's wife" is fine, but then saying "the wife" is less so, imho.

  Fixed -- JM

  The German WP article says it was the carpenter himself, not his wife. -- JM

  The source is pretty clear. Fixed de-wiki instead. --SW

• 100 Gulden, please convert, we don't want to go back to the lead and calculate.

  Done. --SW

• The historic paper has an article in German. de:Münchner Neueste Nachrichten. The redirect Münchner Neueste Nachrichten is nonsense. (not your fault, of course)

  Actually, that was mine, since the Süddeutsche Zeitung uses this name as well. Now an article though. -_SW

Growth ...

• Can we have a year for the founding of the bank?

  Added. --SW

• "Soon after, she began", soon after what? After Christians not trusting Jewish lenders?

  Eliminated after. -- JM

• "inserted an advertisement into" - placed an advertisement in"?

  Done. -- JM

• charm or charme?

  charm in En -- JM

• "In early 1871, Spitzeder survived the first public attempts to discredit her as the government failed to find a legal reason to stop Spitzeder" - "survived"? her name twice?

  Fixed -- JM

• four refs for one fact? - please drop one at least ;)

  Culled --SW

• the poor - the poor, too close

  De-poor-ified --SW

• "published her own newspaper as well", - as well as what? as bribing?

  Rephrased to eliminate question. -- JM

Bankruptcy ...

• "the Munich court" - a specific one? which? or "a Munich court"?

  Fixed. -- JM

  The "Bezirksgericht", I think "District Court" is the valid translation. --SW

• "she and Spitzeder were arrested with the money"? - what does "with the money" mean?

  With the money in her possession -- JM

• 2017 - can we get that to 2019?

  Not without OR I think, I have found no sources from 2019 that give any conversion of 1872 Gulden in 2019 euro. --SW

Prison ...

• "for the future after her release" - didn't she write after being released?

  No, she wrote it in prison but only published it in 1878. --SW

Personal ...

• "proposals, including ones from men of the aristocracy", - isn't one one?

  Rephrased -- JM

General

My language questions are sincere questions and may have to do with English not being my native language. - Please consider to turn all refs to harvard referencing which is used but not consistently. I made some corrections - revert what you don't like - and find it hard to find a spot of text in the bulk of references. - You could link more newspapers in refs. - Do we have any more details about her performances before and after the swindle? Those sections lack detail - for someone interested in theatre. Roles, partners on stage. - Promising article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find but most likely only if she has written about it herself. As for language, it's not mine either, one of the reasons for this PR. I will seek to address the rest of your comments within the week. Regards SoWhy 14:30, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, no rush whatsoever. Feel free to insert right after each bullet for easy connection, signing simply --SW. Good luck. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:32, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

The individual points have all been addressed above. As for Harvard referencing, do you have an example where this is done even with websites so I can mirror it from there? I'll check about the theater stuff but so far most references focus on her financial deeds. Regards SoWhy 13:46, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Great. I learned harv refs on Kafka, but you can look at any of my FAs. Websites just like books, only no page number. I think if she wrote more about theatre, that could be added provided that it is her memories, not necessarily fact. It's part of her life, I think. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:52, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I'll check on the refs these days, it's always a chore converting those. As for the rest, most information will probably be in her biography, which is available on GBooks. It's been a while since I had to read old-timey German font so I might need a few days. Regards SoWhy 14:14, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

As you said, no rush. The refs are already cite templates, - I find it much harder to convert from "simple" to template than just moving it to a section "Cited sources", drop the ref /ref, and say "ref = harv" instead if there are author's last name and a year, or define something such as "ref = {{sfnref|website|year}}", calling it by sfn|website|year. - Some FAC reviewers will look for consistent referencing style. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:35, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Found some time and added info on her theatrical career based on her memoirs. Also converted all other refs to Harvard. Anything else to do? Regards SoWhy 18:44, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder, - I like the additions. Fixed one ref. Not sure if one is "hired" as an actress. "Engaged"? Do we know anything about what she did during the years abroad after release from prison? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:29, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find. I ordered the main biography last week and I'm waiting for it to arrive, hopefully it contains some clues. Her autobiography ends in 1878 with its release. Regards SoWhy 17:23, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: Got the book and expanded that section. Unfortunately, even this book contains no real details about her life between 1880 and 1895. I don't think there is more information out there, seeing as most sources focus on the events of the 1870's. I hope it's sufficient nevertheless. Regards yhWoƧ 11:55, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for looking. I think you can close the peer review and go for FAC. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:02, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Supplementary copy editing by Jmar67 (JM)

I assist Gerda when I can and noticed she had worked on the article. I have made passes through it and commented above. Jmar67 (talk) 05:22, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

@Jmar67: Thank you very much for your help Regards SoWhy 07:47, 6 June 2019 (UTC)