Wikipedia:Notice board for Romani-related topics/Archive 1

Archive 1

List of Romani settlements

This article was started with a list of ghettos in Serbia, with a stereotypical focus on poverty, lack of hygiene (suggesting that this is the usual lifestyle of the Romani people) without any further non-stereotypical information about who are the Roma there. I think there should be searched for and added info about how many times the local authorities from South Eastern Europe stop any systematization projects (like water, electricity etc.) where the non-Romani neighborhood ends and the Romani one starts and to present also examples or Romani neighborhoods that are normal or even look better than the surrounding non-Romani, in order to dismantle these prejudices. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 10:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I just made an article about Zanya. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:11, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

For those who know the Romanian language, you may see here and here a study of the differences between a poor and a normal Romani neighborhood. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Food for thought

Hi, everyone. I was always a bit surprised by this template, specifically its "people" section. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the section does not appear to be matched in other such templates, and it is a bit problematic from two separate points of view: one is that, if properly done, the articles on various Romanian Romani people would expand beyond the template's coverage at some point; the other is that it currently does not include all prominent people to whom the designation applies. My proposal is this: create a List of Romanian Romani people to include all possible notable entries, and replace the section with a link to it (while keeping the template on all articles on persons, including ones to be created, as well as, perhaps, creating a template section on musical groups which would keep those as links). I personally am not sure if the List would satisfy the criteria others have in mind, but my other tentative proposal is the following: create or take into considerations lists of Romani people by occupation and other such criteria (that would group Romani people in various countries), and "national" lists - with the necessary but individually reduced overlap. In turn, either keep the List of Roma, Sinti and Mixed People as is (not sure about the terminology for that one, and pointing out that its title contradicts the capitalization rules) or turn it into a collection of links to various lists.

I'm not implying this is in any way urgent, but it may serve to streamline the various articles, per what we agreed should be done with the respective categories. Thoughts? Dahn 10:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

About the List of Roma, Sinti and Mixed People, I'll propose later, after I'll write articles about the fundamentals of the Romani culture, to separate it into List of Romani people and List of people with Romani heritage, because from the point of view of the Romani culture it matters the cultural not the genetic purity. With regard to that template, obviously it is necessary something like this. Personally, I had in mind to put the Category:Romanian Romani people. Probably the reason was that I did not understand until now why there are made lists, it looks to me like an overlap to the similar categories and I did not find until now a wiki policy about it. Are they necessary, in cases like these, is it better or customary to have in a template an article and not a category? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 11:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

About the list(s): many users seem to think that they exist as a step towards categories, or as an additional way of grouping together articles of the same kind; I personally consider them of less merit than categories, except in cases like this one (for example, a list may clarify why Anton Pann is considered a Roma and by whom, whereas a cat wouldn't). About the template: at least in articles on persons, the category would already be present on the page (and it would be accessible through the category tree on any other page).

Personally, I would propose not separating Romani people and people with Romani heritage into separate lists, but into separate sections on a list of Romani people (and, possibly, on lists related to it). Dahn 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Then let's make such lists. About the separation between Romani and people of Romani heritage, I did not have yet the time to see other current choices on Wikipedia and how do they look like. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 11:04, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

E Rromani chhib si jekh chhib (The Romani tongue is a tongue)!

Hasn't anyone noticed that there is no Romani user language template on Wikipedia:Babel? I propose a code "rr" for Romani-speakers, and then we could have messages like Kado jeno vrakerel but mishto rromanes, Kado jeno chi vrakerel rromanes, etc. --Kuaichik 03:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC) duvver nahin pooker romany,lacho.

I agree there should be a template, but if a template is constructed, it should use the ISO code, either "rom" for the Romani macrolanguge, or "rmy" for Vlax Romani. I think "rr" is assigned to another language. Ronline ✉ 11:22, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I actually created a language link a while back, with rmy (Template:Rmy icon). I needed it in Anton Pann. Dahn 11:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

There are already such templates at Romani Wikipedia, at rmy:Shopni:Jeno rom, just they are written at first person. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 20:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

In that case, why don't we add those templates to Wikipedia:Babel, but change the text from plural to singular (e.g. Kadalo jeno vakyarel...leski daki chib instead of Kadale jene vakyaren...lengi daki chib)? --Kuaichik 00:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Or should it actually be peski (one's own) instead of leski (his, i.e. belonging to some other guy, no?!)? --Kuaichik 14:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Leski is "his", peski is "his (one's) own", it is just stressed in the latter case. Yes, it might be a good idea to put the stressed form. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 11:42, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

All right, everyone! I have created the templates [1]; it still needs some improvement. I'll try to do what I can. (One user seems to have even added one of the templates immediately after I finished making it!) --Kuaichik 04:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, so he actually added the template months ago, and I can't seem to split the "pages in this category" between subcategories and users with these pages...but still! :-P --Kuaichik 05:12, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Now I have fixed those mistakes I found. Rromale, phralale, xav tumenge ile (Romanies, brothers, please - lit. "I eat your hearts"), help yourselves to these templates! --Kuaichik 06:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It's great that you made them, nais tuke. If I was not too specific, I did not have enough time to make them, currently I am busy in real life and I do only the minimal edits. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 08:36, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Irish traveller's and others

I was under the impression that Romani are 'trans-national' peoples. I did some research on the Irish traveller's last year (an essay...not original research) and a vast majority of those Irish travellers interviewed by the ethnographer would always trace their Romani heritage to many different nations. (i.e. a Hungarian mother born in Wales and an Irish father born in France etc.) So should they be included?Doktor Waterhouse 14:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Irish Travellers are not Romani, just as the Jenische and Jews are not Romani. Yes, Romanies are "trans-national" in the sense that they can be found all over Europe, but they are not to be confused with other nomadic groups in Europe. But thanks for asking first! :) --Kuaichik 00:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Request → Kris

Might someone knowledgeable consider making an article on the Romani practice of the kris? On Wikipedia, it's mentioned in the article Ronald Lee, as well as in some references. —Zalktis (talk) 16:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'll consider it...but don't expect it to be up anytime soon :-/ --Kuaichik (talk) 02:51, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I have read some descriptions of this practice amongst Kalderash in the Swedish memoir literature I have, but this is all anecdotal evidence. A description based on a scholarly treatment of the subject that meets the requirements of WP:RS would be great. However, I am aware that some members of the Romani community are wary of letting gadže learn too much about this and other key aspects of zakonuri. —Zalktis (talk) 07:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I've now added Kris (Romani court). Please help expand and improve this article. —Zalktis (talk) 08:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Help needed

Please have a look at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Romani people#Help needed and my question. Thank you and happy editing. Sebastian scha. (talk) 01:23, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Szczurowa massacre

I started a short article on the killing of 93 Roma by Germans during World War II in the Polish village of Szczurowa, based mostly on the work of Adam Bartosz: Szczurowa massacre. According to Bartosz and other sources, Szczurowa had the first memorial to recognize the Roma Holocaust. Aside from the book, web sources, and local knowledge I do not have a general background on this topic (for example, I wasn't even sure what the name of this article should be or whether it should be linked to "Porajmos" or "Roma Holocaust"). So any help and edits would be much appreciated.radek (talk) 06:42, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to rename 'Roma people' article

There is currently a proposal to change the name of the article 'Roma people', to 'Romani people'. Those interested in contributing to the debate are directed to Talk:Roma people#Proposal to rename article and to Talk:Roma people#Seeking a consensus to rename this article "Romani people". RashersTierney (talk) 13:36, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Although categorised as an article of Top Importance, this proposed change is not receiving the input it merits from editors. RashersTierney (talk) 23:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I have given notice of the proposal here : Wikipedia:Requested moves #Other proposals RashersTierney. Editors who wish to contribute to the discussion should do so here Talk:Roma people #Requested move (talk) 15:32, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Anyone home? RashersTierney (talk) 11:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Bulibaşa image flagged for deletion

An image has been flagged for deletion as discussed here. If anyone can access the book in question and address the outstanding issues, would be much obliged. RashersTierney (talk) 18:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Romanipen

This article, recently proposed for merging, could benefit from the contributions of experts. It should be considered by members of the project as of High Importance. Please assist in improvement. RashersTierney (talk) 23:54, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

'Gypsy' as a legitimate proper noun

Following a spate of undiscussed deletions of use of this term as a proper noun, I have initiated a centralised debate at Talk:Romani people#Legitimate use of 'Gypsy' as proper noun in reference to the specific ethnic group. Input from all concerned, one way or the other, would be greatly appreciated. RashersTierney (talk) 17:54, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I know this is almost two years old now, but I can't find the discussion to which it refers after the jump! I'm personally for its use as a proper noun, but as a johnny-come-lately the majority ruling is good enough for me. Could someone catch me up on the result of that discussion before I go ahead with a relevant edit to Esméralda's page? There's a similar request on the Talk page dated 2009, that was either not enacted or reverted. Thanks (Xamurrochokas (talk) 22:26, 29 September 2012 (UTC))

Gelem, Gelem

I'm currently working on a rewrite of the Gelem, Gelem page in my sandbox and I'd appreciate everyones' input. Personally I think the list of alternative titles is too long. Many of the differences between examples are superficial, and since it isn't possible to include every alternative title it seems nonsensical to include only the current handful (perhaps paring it down to only its most diverse examples?). What's more the translation by Ronald Lee concerns a different version of the anthem, of which there are many, and so is not a faithful translation of the lyrics provided (though is undoubtedly in perfect translation of the relevant version). If that text is to be kept, I think it would benefit from finding its original version in Romani and including that also. Overall there are a lot of things that could be improved upon and I'd value your thoughts and input. (Xamurrochokas (talk) 13:51, 30 September 2012 (UTC))

Re alternative titles, I think there is a rule that up to four alternative names should be listed within lede, rest of them should be listed within separate paragraph within main body of the article or note dedicated to the names. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:42, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Romani People Series

There's a template template in use on some of the Romani people articles, but not on others. Is there a reason for this? There is no discussion on its talk page. I don't want to undertake the task of adding it to every subgroup, if there's a valid reason for the inconsistency. Otherwise I'll go ahead and add it.[[Xamurrochokas (talk) 13:53, 14 November 2012 (UTC)]]

I think that existing practice is to add this kind of templates only to the articles listed within this template.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Antidiskriminator. I think I could have been clearer in my question though, I meant only in regards to individual endaj/ Romani subgroup. For example Spanish, Slovakian, Romanian and German Roma are all listed in the template, yet none of their corresponding pages have the template. There's no consistency to its use, so I wondered if there was a reason for that or if it was just an unfinished task? Xamurrochokas (talk) 17:26, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Thank you Xamurrochokas for your efforts related to the Romani People Wikiproject. In regards to individual Romani subgroups I think that all articles about all Romani subgroups which are listed within Romani people template should use this template, including Spanish, Slovakian, Romanian and German Roma.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:40, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree completely. Though I think the template should be used for all Romani subgroup articles (ie, those of Kosovo, Rromanichal, Welsh Kale, Czech Rep. etc), otherwise it raises the question as to why the template lists only a select group of 8 Roma peoples (which is why I think it must have been an unfinished tasks) and excludes the rest. Do you see what I mean? [[Xamurrochokas (talk) 19:11, 14 November 2012 (UTC)]]

I agree that all Romani subgroup articles should be listed within this template which should be used in all those articles. If Template becomes to large this field should be collapsed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:32, 14 November 2012 (UTC)