Help desk
< February 13	<< Jan \| February \| Mar >>	February 15 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Help Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current Help Desk pages.

February 14

About deleting large parts of a problematic article

Resolved

– Mysdaao ^talk 14:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the content in Isaac_Le_Maire makes no sense because it's the Dutch article put through an online translator. I've posted about this in talk a while ago but it's still a problem. My first thought was just deleting everything below the introduction as it makes no sense at all. But as I've never done big edits and mostly do small fixes and one of the guidelines tells me to preserve information I haven't done anything about it yet. I'm not sure what informational value the article has as it's basically random words put together.

Now I know I could just go ahead and delete it and see if anyone reverts it. But I wanted to get information about something this large before I do anything. Any help and insight would be appreciated. Niels Brons (talk) 00:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You can request help from translators before deleting the text. Add {{Cleanup-translation|Dutch}} and then list the article in Wikipedia:Pages needing translation into English#Translated pages that could still use some cleanup. --Mysdaao ^talk 00:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I will do that. Niels Brons (talk) 12:20, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome! --Mysdaao ^talk 14:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Citing the same source multiple times

I am editing an article and using a large RS reference multiple times. I know about using the name="CiteName" construct so that the same reference will be used multiple times. But the document I am referencing is large, and I wonder if there is any way to specify a different page number for each of the citations? It would be preferable, I think, to refer the reader to page 235 of the document for one cite, and page 17 for the next cite, etc., instead of expecting him to search the whole document looking for himself. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks! Jgui (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The only ways to use page numbers:

Use a standard footnote for each cite including page number
Use a named standard footnote and include the page number inline using {{rp}}
Use shortened footnotes
Use parenthetical referencing

---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 02:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I've never seen the second option (rp for inline page number before) but that looks like the way to go to me since that leaves the citations already present and modifies them slightly (unless you have another recommendation) Jgui (talk) 03:26, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why isn't there a standard for the tv episode synopses ?

All the American Tv Series like http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_Heroes_episodes seem to be listed that way, but http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_Doctor_Who_serials is not. Why is that ? Is there not a standard for Tv Series? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Snowboy83 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am sure that the folks who hang out at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television would be able to help you. – ukexpat (talk) 01:30, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Signature Problems?

I made a pritty signature! =D

Uber-Awesomeness talk

One problem...

I paste it in the sig box in the preferences, check exactly as shown, and this is what I get:

Invalid raw signature. Check HTML tags.

What am I doing wrong? Uber-Awesomeness (talk) 01:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Did you overflow the 200-character maximum, thus deleting and other closing tags? -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 02:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:How to fix your signature. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 02:37, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

URL Actions

Resolved

– -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 21:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have a question (well, two questions) regarding actions in Wikipedia URLs. First, I have noticed that while the default buttons that append actions padded with "&" (like "&action=edit&section=new") work, if I am to enter them normally as external links and have them function, I must change the "&"s to "?"s (like ?action=purge). Why? Is it something to do with Firefox?

Second, is there a "replace" action (or compound thereof), one that not only opens the page editor, but replaces all of it with a selected string, ideally autosaving as well? The reason I ask is to make a status template function as desired, replacing the status page upon a single click of a link. In the original, there is a compound link - [http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:RadicalOne/Status?action=edit&amfind=.*&amreplace=desiredstring&amlocal=1&amsummary=summary&amautosave=yes&amminor=1] - but it does not replace nor autosave the page, nor do the other parameters like edit summary and "minor" function. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 02:27, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, there's no need to change thme. The "?" just delimits the page

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:RadicalOne/Status

from the query passed to it

action=edit&amfind=.*&amreplace=desiredstring&amlocal=1&amsummary=summary&amautosave=yes&amminor=1

and of course the whole is wrapped with [ ]. I've removed the bolding for simplicity. User:LeadSongDog come howl 02:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's what it originally was, but it thinks all of that is a page name, a subpage titled "User:RadicalOne/Status&action=edit&amfind=.*&amreplace=online&amlocal=1&amsummary=online&amautosave=yes&amminor=1". Clicking it does not perform the desired actions, and instead gives me an error message (the same kind I get when I do not use "?" in my links, might I add):

Wikipedia does not have a user page with this exact name. Before creating this page, please see Wikipedia:Subpages.

Other reasons this message may be displayed:

If a page was recently created here, it may not yet be visible because of a delay in updating the database; wait a few minutes and try the purge function.
Titles on Wikipedia are case sensitive except for the first character; please check alternate capitalizations and consider adding a redirect here to the correct title.
If the page has been deleted, check the deletion log, and see Why was my page deleted?.

This was for a "&" in the link. A "?" just makes it edit but not replace or save, the problem I explained at the outset. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 03:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bit closer:

[1] but if it is searching for .* and you presently have "busy" I'm not sure what action to expect. User:LeadSongDog come howl 04:05, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It merely opened the edit page but did not autosave. About searching for a specific string, I doubt it is "find" in the conventional sense, as entering "&amfind=busy" did not change anything. Nor did adding ".*" to the status page (when using the original link). -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 05:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One problem you're having is forming the link from the article path (/wiki/) and not the script path (/w/index.php). The latter is the one that accepts parameters for actions. The "?" immediately following tells the server to accept the following parameters, which are separated by "&". I don't know of any parameters do a search and replace, but you can do this fairly simply with a little JavaScript and the wiki's API. Even if you wanted to just use a simple link to index.php, you'd need an edit token to save the page, and they're different for every session. Let me know if you want a JS implementation and I can help with that. — Bility (talk) 07:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Have you seen and followed the instructions at User:Knowledgeum/StatusTemplate to install the needed script? User:LeadSongDog come howl 15:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have. It did not fix anything. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 17:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I presume you've already checked that you have javascript enabled by using another one. Other than that, I'm out of guesses. You might try searching for other users of the template and asking them to have a look at your setup. Just search for StatusTemplate then choose the "everything" option for a seach that goes outside the mainspace.User:LeadSongDog come howl 20:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I tried that too. Everyone I contact - including the original template author - does not respond or posts once but never replies again. This thread here is the first time I have had a discussion longer than ten lines about it. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 20:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Copyright Violation

Resolved

– – ukexpat (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Aloha, I am attempting to post a wiki for the professor and author Richard Rapson. I was tagged and the entry will be, or is already deleted on the grounds of copyright violation. I am unsure of what violation is actually being referenced, everything cited in the entry concerns his achievents, published works and current status. Any ideas? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Claireva (talk • contribs) 03:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that is near enough a word-for-word copy of http://www2.hawaii.edu/~rapson/ - a copyright violation and not permitted on Wikipedia. – ukexpat (talk) 03:29, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I re-wrote it using the text that was already there. It's not a direct copyvio anymore but it still needs references. I'm not arguing for or against Rapson's notability. Dismas|^(talk) 04:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Signature Shrinking

Resolved

– – ukexpat (talk) 17:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have a nice signature, but it is a bit too big. It is over 300 characters long when it is supposed to be less than 200. I have tried to shrink it, but I'm still a long way off. Does any one know of any methods of shrinking?

<small style="border:1px solid #484848;background-color:grey;">
[[User:Uber-Awesomeness|'''<span style="background-color:grey;color:white"> Uber-Awesomeness ''']]
[[User talk:Uber-Awesomeness|<span style="color:#383838;background-color:silver;border:0px;"><small> talk </small></span>]]
</small>

Output:

Uber-Awesomeness talk

How can I get this under 200 characters? I really like it. Uber-Awesomeness (talk) 03:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My advice is to scrap the tags, any unnecessary characters, and extra formatting. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 05:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Try

<span style="border:1px solid #484848;background-color:grey;">
[[User:Uber-Awesomeness|'''<span style="color:white">Uber-Awesomeness''']]
[[User talk:Uber-Awesomeness|<span style="color:#383838;background-color:silver;border:0px;"><small>talk</small></span>]]
</span>

Output: Uber-Awesomeness talk

Although I still count 257 in the shortened version. Possibly take out the small tags. Another thing you could look into is creating a doppleganger acount with a shorter name so you could use its user page as a redirect to yours. That way the code could look something like this:

<span style="border:1px solid #484848;background-color:grey;">
[[User:UberA|'''<span style="color:white">Uber-Awesomeness''']]
[[User talk:UberA|<span style="color:#383838;background-color:silver;border:0px;"><small>talk</small></span>]]
</span>

Which would output as:

Uber-Awesomeness talk

The only problem with that approach is that people may think you are attempting to create sockpuppets. You could avoid that altogether by asking an admin to indef block the account after its all set up. User:Jack "Red Hood" Napier 07:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is 255 exactly: Uber-Awesomenesstalk — Bility (talk) 07:54, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For my suggestion, I shall start off by going back to your original.

<small style="border:1px solid #484848;background-color:grey;">
[[User:Uber-Awesomeness|'''<span style="background-color:grey;color:white"> Uber-Awesomeness ''']]
[[User talk:Uber-Awesomeness|<span style="color:#383838;background-color:silver;border:0px;"><small> talk </small></span>]]
</small>

(total 312 characters if the three line breaks be ignored).

First, a note on valid HTML/XML. For clarity, I shall remove all content and attributes (but not the Wiki markup) from the above, so that we see:

<small>
[[|'''<span>''']]
[[|<span><small></span></small>]]
</small>

All tags which are not self-closing must be closed (ie for every  there must be a ; they cannot overlap at one end only, but may nest. So, the first  is unclosed, whilst the second  overlaps the . So, let's start by adding the missing closing tag, and move the  inside the . This does not gain any space (in fact closing the  tag loses seven characters for a total of 319), but may resolve unpredictable side-effects.

Now, to gaining space. According to WP:CUSTOMSIG the limit is 255, not 200, which makes things a bit easier. You can save a few characters by:

using background: instead of background-color: (saving: 3x6=18; net gain: 11; total: 301 chars)
removing the  tag around the "talk" (which changes the appearance, but not by much) (saving: 15, net gain: 26; total: 286 chars)
removing the border:0px; (saving: 11; net gain: 37; total: 275 chars)
Any colour where the hexadecimal value of each of the three component colours uses two identical characters to describe it can be encoded in four instead of seven chars (ie #88CC00 may be reduced to #8C0), so white, whose six-digit value is #FFFFFF may be shown as #FFF; further, if the exact shade is not critical, you can adjust the colour for a similar gain - so #484848 is close to #444444 which reduces to #444 (#383838 reduces to #333 in the same way); similarly, silver is the same as #C0C0C0 but #BBBBBB is close to that, which reduces to #BBB. (saving: 9, net gain: 46; total: 266 chars)
The Wiki markup '''...''' is the same as ..., which can take the attributes from the , allowing the latter to be removed. That is, ''' Uber-Awesomeness ''' is the same as  Uber-Awesomeness . (saving: 2, net gain: 48; total: 264 chars)
The final semicolon in each style is redundant, so remove those (saving: 2, net gain: 50; total: 262 chars).
About the only gain left is the  . Removing these will change the appearance noticeably, which is why I've left it for last. There are four of these, at 6 characters each; but we only need to drop two to go under 255 characters - I suggest the first and third. (saving: 12, net gain: 62; total: 250 chars)

Here's the final code:

<small style="border:1px solid #444;background:grey">
[[User:Uber-Awesomeness|<strong style="background:grey;color:#FFF">Uber-Awesomeness </strong>]]
[[User talk:Uber-Awesomeness|<span style="color:#333;background:#BBB">talk </span>]]
</small>

Removing the three line breaks (added for clarity), this is 250 characters, a saving of 62 characters compared to your original. By comparison, we have gone from:

Uber-Awesomeness talk

to

Uber-Awesomeness talk

They're only slightly different in appearance, I think you'll agree. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:06, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oooh, just found another - we can gain 16 more characters by dropping the second "background:grey;" (the one in the ) which allows those two   to go back in (2x6=12, for a net gain of 4 compared to my last suggestion):

<small style="border:1px solid #444;background:grey">
[[User:Uber-Awesomeness|<strong style="color:#FFF"> Uber-Awesomeness </strong>]]
[[User talk:Uber-Awesomeness|<span style="color:#333;background:#BBB"> talk </span>]]
</small>

total 246 characters., a saving of 62 characters compared to your original. By comparison, we have gone from:

Uber-Awesomeness talk

to

Uber-Awesomeness talk

which I think look almost the same. --Redrose64 (talk) 12:40, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, guys!

I settled on this, which is mainly redrose's idea:

<small style="border:1px solid #444;background:grey">
[[User:Uber-Awesomeness|<strong style="background:grey;color:#FFF">Uber-Awesomeness</strong>]]
[[User talk:Uber-Awesomeness|<span style="color:#333;background:#BBB"> talk </span>]]
</small>

Except for some reason on my browser the spaces on either sides don't show up as (and)nbsp; (I can't put & in because it will just show up as a space) in the pre tag. If I use the real space key on either side it behaves as if the spaces don't exist.

Well... Thanks guys! Is there like a resolved template I can use or something? Also, do I HAVE to have that date next to it? Uber-Awesomeness talk 15:49, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A non-breaking space behaves oddly when you want to show the metacharacter markup and not the character itself. Some ways don't show at all; some show to begin with, and then the next day MiszaBot II comes along and screws it up again. Here's one way that I'm pretty sure works and is permanent:   - this looks good, but click the "edit" link to see how complicated it has to be in order to make that happen.

Re date and time - if you sign a talk post, and don't use date & time, either somebody will complain, or SineBot will put a timestamp on it anyway. The {{undated}} template was created for this.

The resolved template is called... {{resolved}}. Typically, you would put it at the very top of this section, on the next line after the section header. Typically, you would also sign it inside the template, thus: {{resolved|~~~~}}.

--Redrose64 (talk) 16:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So, what was wrong with the default sig: Uber-Awesomeness (talk)? It is just 80 characters long. Astronaut (talk) 19:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How to delete a user?

Hello. I am new to wikipedia but I do not think I am ready to create articles and I wish only to read them. Is it possible for me to delete my user? Or if not, can someone delete it for me? Thank you. Halloghj (talk) 07:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User accounts cannot be deleted. If you don't wish to use the account, simply stop logging in. It doesn't make a difference to Wikipedia if the account simply sits idle forever. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:13, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, creating articles isn't the only way of helping Wikipedia! Lots of articles only need a copy-edit (something anyone with a grasp on English grammar can do) or need some organizing. You might also like to visit Wikipedia:Adopt-a-User, where you can be "adopted" by an experienced user who will help you learn your way around. Never be afraid to make mistakes, because mistakes on Wikipedia are usually easily fixed. Liquidluck✽talk 18:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

my toolbox

Resolved

– – ukexpat (talk) 17:02, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to have either removed whatever it was that gave added options to me when editing for example allowing me the added option of striking through comments and such like, does anyone know what it was and how I can re add it? Off2riorob (talk) 12:17, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There are different toolbars. Have you enabled "Show edit toolbar (requires JavaScript)" under Editing at Special:Preferences? That includes a ~~str~~ button for striking through text. PrimeHunter (talk) 12:23, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Might have enable the enhanced toolbar in the same section. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 12:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They seem to be correct, when I am on a normal page I have like a little tick picture up at the top right of my screen and then when I go into edit the tick becomes a cross and is the picture..wikEd error.... and I have only the simple characters and such, not the extended wiki ed tools. Off2riorob (talk) 12:59, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like it could be an issue with my java on my browser. Off2riorob (talk) 13:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same problem with Wiked, the simple workaround for me is to reload the page if Wiked does ot come up the first time. Also, if you are using the Beta version of Wikipedia I would refer to the Wiked page as this issue is discussed there. Supertouch (talk) 13:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, I was in beta and have now left and it is working ok now, thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 15:45, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Isolating a Wikipedia page section on its own page. (For printing or saving)

How do I get just one section, i.e. a subheading and everything below it until but not including the next subheading, of a wikipedia page, onto its own html page? This kind of excerpt quite often constitutes just the part that I am interested in and nothing more. Therefore I have often missed this feature (while saving or (sometimes) printing).
--Seren-dipper (talk) 15:19, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know there is no native way to do this. If you wanted to print just one section, select (highlight) the section. Any operating system worth its salt can tell the printer to print just that selection. Under Windows the option is labeled "Selection" and is on the front page of the Print dialog; on Ubuntu Linux (and probably other Gnome-based distros) it's under the third tab of the Print dialog, which is labeled Options; on other operating systems, placement varies. Xenon54 / talk / 15:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but it is far from a satisfying solution. It does not work verry well for saving, as you may miss out on wanted URL and date information. And in some situations you seem to even loose a lot of formatting.
Even when printing it is bound to lead to frustration. Especially when the section in question spanns multiple screenfulls, while it is situated in the middle of many more screenfulls of text that you do not want.
If you then should happen to mark your selection a little bit wrong, and try to mark it again, with your mouse, then you may easily loose the other endpoint of your intended selection.
In other words: that solution can be wery bothersome at times.
--Seren-dipper (talk) 16:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Now, if the "show section on its own page" were to become a native Wikipedia feature, then it, of course would include a tiny comment and link to the full page, on the top and end of the excerption page. (I personally would prefer it to also be visible in the link (URL or other) to the page).
Where may I pose this as a new feature request for Wikipedia?
--Seren-dipper (talk) 16:52, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The "edit section" function does isolate a subheading and its associated content, allowing you to cut and paste it entire, but of course you get the wikimarkup version when you do this. The place to discuss your improvement idea is Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Ka renjc 17:31, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite while retaining edit history

Resolved

– Mysdaao ^talk 17:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking into doing a rewrite of an article. I'd like to retain the edit history. I tried copying the entire text into a sandbox, but that didn't work. Does anyone know the right way to do this?--SPhilbrick T 15:42, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you edit an existing article by clicking the "edit this page" tab, the page history is automatically kept. If you copy and paste the text into another page, the history can't be retained. --Mysdaao ^talk 16:33, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just paste your new text into the article page in place of the old text. That way the edit history will be maintained. You may want to ask for review of your new text first though, maybe by putting it temporarily in a user subpage, then posting the link on the article's talk page. – ukexpat (talk) 16:50, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I guess it is easier than I thought.--SPhilbrick T 17:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I accidentally deleted information on a page - can I restore it?

My question is that simple. Is there a way for me - or an administrator - to restore info I myself erroneously deleted on a page? thanks.Lizasee (talk)

If it is information on an article, userpage or Wikipedia page, then you can simply revert or undo your edits. If you're reverting, click on the History tab at the top of the page, click the date/time of the version you wish to restore it to, say you're reverting back in the edit summary, and then save it. Let me know if that isn't clear. Orphan Wiki 17:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK, someone has done it for you. :) Orphan Wiki 17:16, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Was this at Template:Sammy Hagar? I've reverted the page to the previous version - have a look and see if that was what you wanted to do. Next time you can do this yourself; no administrator is needed. To revert to a previous version of a page, click on the "history" tab right at the top of the page. All the previous versions are shown, listed in date order. Click on the date of the version you want to go back to, then click on "edit this page", and then save, remembering to use an appropriate edit history as you should do each time you edit. The page will revert back to the version you have selected. Don't worry - all previous versions of a page on Wikipedia are saved, so nothing you accidentally delete has gone for good. Ka renjc 17:21, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

One last question...

Can I be renamed to Awesomeness? I wanted to be named Awesomeness when I made my account in October 2008, but it was taken. Recently I decided to look at Awesomeness, and I've noticed a couple things:

-The account has not made any edits whatsoever since his creation,

-It is over a year old, because it was taken back when I made my account, (Probably much longer)

- And it takes up the user name I really want! =(

Am I allowed to have an admin move my account data to the dead account Awesomeness, or is it prohibited? Uber-Awesomeness talk 18:14, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, you can. Talk to WP:Usurpations. -RadicalOne•^{Contact Me}•_{Chase My Tail} 18:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you promise to live up to your name? :) --SPhilbrick T 19:18, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Amanda Kaye McMurray, female comic book writer

Amanda Kaye McMurray, nickname Mandy, was born May 1, 1974 in Des Moines Iowa. She has degrees in Law Enforcement and Psychology, which she often uses in her comic book writing , and a Teaching degree. She is published in both music and comic books. She has written an operetta and is currently working on another one. She has written comic books for Marvel, Angel Comics, Aspen Comics, and DC. She is currently the series writer for COTA: Children of the Apocalypse, published by Angel Comics. She resides in Salt Lake City, Utah where she also teaches.Jacquelinreeves (talk) 23:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well you have copied the content of your recently created article here on the Help Desk. I suppose this is asking why it is in question for speedy deletion? As the notice states, this is due to the notability of the person you write about. If you disagree, follow the instructions given on the notice and state your thoughts. Orphan Wiki 23:48, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

J'Achette

I have tried in vain to find the rules of a rummy card game called J'Achette. In frustration I decided to seek consensus of other players and have written the rules following the format used many times in Wikipedia for similar games. However there are no sources other than opinions of regular players. In following the guidelines for submitting an article for Wikipedia it does not appear adequate for publication. However there are many games similar to J'achette - a rummy game - which do not provide sources. Should I proceed?

Large chunk of text now in collapsed section

J’Achette “J’Achette” is French for “I Buy”. The card game J’Achette is a rummy game having elements of many games particularly Continental, Rumino, Buraco, Shanghai Rum and Liverpool Rummy. It is a game favoured by Europeans living in Egypt, many of whom left Egypt prior to and following the Suez Crisis of 1956. The aim of J’Achette is to push opposing players past 120 points. If all players, except the winner of the hand pass 120 points that player wins the Poola. • The game can be player by 3, 4, 5 or 6 players. Two 52-card decks are used plus 2 Jokers per deck. The game consists of two phases.

1. The first phase – a Hand - is concluded when one player is able to lay all cards on the table. Each of the other players totals the cards remaining in their hand.

The deal proceeds to the left of the original dealer until the Poola is won.

2. The second phase – a Poola - is concluded when one player is able to lay all cards on the table finishing the Hand and each of the other players’ totals added to previous scores exceed 120 points. Melds consist of, a set of three or four cards of different suits but the same face value, e.g., three queens, or three aces, or four sevens. A run consists of three or more cards of the same suit, in sequence. If there is an ace in the run, it can serve as either high card above a King or low card below a two. No run may contain more than 14 cards. After choosing an exposed card from the discard pile or the top card from the stock pile each player is permitted in turn to lay cards on the table in melds of three or four or larger.

Each player’s first meld must include a four of a kind or a run with a minimum of four consecutive cards of the same suit.

Jokers are wild and can complete a three or four of a kind or be placed in any sequence.

Three or four of a kind cannot include two of the same card – eg. two kings of diamonds are not permitted. The deal All players pick a card at random and return it to the deck, high card dealing first. Each hand starts a new deal, with the turn to deal passing from player to player, to the left. The pack is shuffled by the dealer and cut by the player to the dealer’s right. The card at the cut is exposed and takes no part in the hand unless it is a Joker. A cut Joker is given to the player cutting the pack and the dealer deals only nine additional cards to that player. In the event of a re-deal the Joker remains with the player who cut the deck. Cards are dealt two at a time face down beginning at the dealer's left. The dealer deals 10 cards face down to each player, places the remainder of the pack face down in the middle, and places the top card from the stock pile face up next to it. Play starts with the player to the dealer's left and proceeds clockwise. If the first face-up card is a joker, it is played as any other card would be, i.e., the player to the dealer's left has first choice to pick it up in turn.

The play Beginning with the player to the left of the dealer, a player's turn begins by selecting either the top card from the stock pile, or the top card from the discard pile. If the player rejects the top discard by choosing from the stock pile, any player in order of rotation to the left of the player may Buy that card, but must also draw the top card from the stock pile as a penalty for picking out of turn, without discarding. In such a case: The order of play is not changed, The player buying out of turn may not play any cards on the table until his or her next regular turn, Each player at the table (including the player who discarded that particular card) has the same option to buy depending on the option of the player before him.

A fee is charged to Buy the card and an unseen card from the top of the pack. Cards covered by a subsequent discard are not available for selection or Buying. (Unless the discard pile is re-shuffled later) The player whose turn was interrupted after selecting the top card resumes play by discarding to the discard pile. If a player finishes the Hand on the same turn as another player has bought, the fee is returned to the buyer and the two cards bought are not included in that player’s tally. At a player’s turn if that player has not yet gone down he may before discarding lay down sets and/or runs. The first opening by each player must include a four of a kind or a sequence of at least four cards. Having gone down, the player is then free to play (in that same turn or in subsequent turns) additional cards onto existing sets or runs that have already been played on the table. A player may not add any cards to other players’ runs or sets until he has opened ("gone down"). Wild cards may be used to fill in missing cards in a set or a run, and there is no limit to how many wild cards may be used in any set or run, as long as they are paired with at least one numeric or face card, ie. one seven and two jokers is legitimate. Before discarding if the player changes his mind as to which cards to play where, cards played in the current turn may be picked up for re-use or repositioning. The first player’s turn is concluded when having tabled any cards, or not, he discards one card from his hand. That card is exposed on the discard pile.

All other players continue play in the same manner. They either chose the top exposed card or the top of the pack. They either put down cards according to the allowable regulations or discard without putting cards on the table.

Once cards are tabled they may be added to by all other players at their turn provided the player adding has placed at least a set or run of four on the table.

During a player’s turn a player may announce or declare to the other players that he holds a Joker or Jokers in his untabled cards. A Joker can only be declared once a player has performed an initial meld.

Play continues until one player is able to place all his cards on the table in either runs or sets or adding to others’ tabled cards. The player must have one card to discard to conclude the Hand.

Exchanging a Joker

A player holding a card which a tabled Joker represents may in that player’s turn replace it with the card or cards but must immediately return the Joker to the table in a new meld or add it to an existing meld. To exchange a Joker the player must have already placed at least a set or series of four on the table.

To exchange a Joker used in a sequence the player exchanges the Joker for the card it represents.

To exchange a Joker making up the third of three of a kind the player exchanges both missing cards to receive the Joker.

To exchange a Joker making up the fourth of four of a kind the player exchanges the one missing card to receive the Joker. Scoring At the conclusion of a Hand by one player tabling all his cards and discarding one card, all other players tally the cards remaining in their hands – those not tabled during play.

Value of cards are:

Joker 25 or if declared 2 Ace 10 or if held alone 1

K,Q,J,10 10 9 –2 face value

Each player’s count is added initially to zero and subsequently to the then current score.

The players gradually move towards 120.

Should at least one player’s score, other than the player who won the Hand, be less than 120 the Poola continues. Each player who passes 120 returns to the game with a penalty of a Hat and the score of the highest player.

A Hat incurs a penalty payable to the Poola.

When all players’ scores, other than the player who won the Hand, pass 120 the Poola is concluded. That player is the winner and is awarded all money in the Poola. If a new game is played, the winner deals the 1st hand.

An alternative Scoring system operates in reverse and results in the tallies being subtracted from the current score and scores moving from 120 to zero rather than zero to 120. The system is simpler for players as their score is also the maximum required to save.

Additional Rules

Discard fits on table

If a player discards a card that fits on the table with previously tabled cards players may chose or buy that card. The next player may choose the card but may not finish the Hand using that card in that exposed position at his current turn. Other players may buy that card but may not finish the Hand using that card in the exposed position at their next turn. Players can conclude the Hand during their following turn. The players may finish the hand using the card in a meld other than the exposed position. Exhausting the pack

It is possible, although rare, that the stock pile may dwindle down to nothing before any player has gone out. Play continues using the discards until the current player does not wish to accept the top discard. At that time the discard pile is shuffled and play continues in order. The re-shuffling of the discards can continue until there are no discards to re-use or all cards in the discard pack have been rejected. The pot associated with that Hand jackpots to the next Hand. Cards are re-dealt by the next dealer and no new costs are made to the Hand or Poola. The next hand is dealt with no alteration to scores. Incorrect hand Prior to the first meld a player should always have an even number of cards. After the first meld it is more difficult to determine the correct number of cards but the cards held and cards tabled should again equal an even number of cards. A player with too many or too few cards closes his cards and takes no further part in the Hand. The player assumes a score equal to the highest of the other players after their hands are totalled. The penalised player receives a Hat and its penalty if the highest player was so penalised. Illegal Draw If, by playing out of turn or by drawing more than one card from the top of the stock pile, a player sees a card to which he is not entitled, that card is placed face up on top of the stock pile. The next player may either take the card or may have it placed face down in the center of the stock pile, and proceed to play as if no irregularity had occurred. That is, the next player only has three options rather than the usual two. Premature discard Any player who discards without drawing may then draw from the stock pile to restore the hand to the proper number of cards, but may not lay down any cards after discarding. If the next player in turn has already drawn, the Incorrect Hand applies. A player who discards more than one card may retract either one, unless the next player in turn has already drawn from the discard pile, thus the Incorrect Hand applies.

Re-deal There should be a re-deal, by the same dealer, if more than one card is exposed in dealing or if more than one card is found face up in the pack. a player who is dealt an incorrect number of cards may demand a re-deal before drawing in that player’s first turn. After drawing the Incorrect Hand applies. there must be a re-deal at any time it is discovered that the pack is incorrect, but the results of previous deals are not affected. A player who is dealt three doubles may demand a re-deal. Two identical cards are a double and Jokers may substitute if required.

Conventions

Saving

A player ¬should not meld any cards if the cards remaining untabled in that player’s hand added to the player’s previous score exceed 120 points. Eg. Previous score 84 - player should not table cards if untabled cards add to more than 36 Previous score 114 - player should not table cards if untabled cards add to more than 6. If two players have saved the Poola will not be won but if only one player has saved the Poola is at risk. If a player goes out and no one has saved or the only saved player goes out that player will also win the Poola.

Placing cards on the table assists the other players so there is generally no advantage and a definite disadvantage in melding if a player’s tally of untabled cards and previous score passes 120.

However melding a four of a kind offers no opportunity to other players and if done so may provide an opportunity to close other options on the table by adding to other melds.

Stakes

Each player to pay:

10 units at the commencement of the first Hand.

Five units to the Poola Five units to the Hand

At the commencement of each subsequent hand each player pays five units to the current hand only. Players penalised for a Hat also pay five units to the Poola.

The Poola increases each time a player earns a Hat.

1 unit to the Hand each time a card is bought from the discard pack together with a card from the top of the pack.

Winning the Hand

The player winning the Hand takes the Hand pot. The Hand pot consists of the five units from each player and any funds spent to buy.

Winning the Poola

The player winning the Poola takes both the Hand pot and the Poola. The Poola consists of the initial payment from each player plus Hats, penalties for re-entering the game.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenngrigg (talk • contribs) 23:55, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For a start, it's generally not a good idea to post a huge, article-sized chunk of text to the Help desk, especially without putting it in a collapsed section (as I have done for you). Secondly, I would say that no, it's not a good idea to proceed as your article won't last long. If it's unreferenced, and unreferencible, it shouldn't be on Wikipedia per WP:NOR. If there are other articles like that, they should probably be brought to WP:AFD (assuming that they, too, cannot be sourced). Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 00:45, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]